Count Bassy Posted September 10, 2009 Share Posted September 10, 2009 I think that a lot of it is to do with the tendency to always adjust the sound balance by turning something up, rather than turning something (or everything) else down, so the overall volume inevitably rises. .. Plus of course lead guitarists .... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonny-lad Posted September 10, 2009 Share Posted September 10, 2009 [quote name='skankdelvar' post='594873' date='Sep 10 2009, 04:43 PM']Show me a guitarist who plays quietly and I'll show you a bassist in disguise. [/quote] I'm a guitarist who plays quietly...although I've been playing far more bass than guitar for at least a couple of years now! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crikey! Posted September 11, 2009 Share Posted September 11, 2009 we play loud. because our drummer plays loud. and our amps go loud. and we like to scream and shout. but we play to people who like it loud. in loud venues. with loud PAs and loud drunk people. i wear earplugs when i dont lose them. Wish i didnt lose them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Happy Jack Posted September 11, 2009 Author Share Posted September 11, 2009 Finally got to try out the SPL meter last night. Walked into my local jam (Coach & Horses, Isleworth/Brentford) and was immediately pinned against the back wall by the sound waves. This is not a big pub, and it is currently operating under a Noise Abatement Order. So I put my ER15's in and set up the SPL meter. The band on-stage were averaging 105dB (loud) and peaked at an incredible 109dB (very loud). According to the tables, a "loud rock band" at a large gig will be in the 115-125 range. 115dB is double 105dB, 125db is four times as loud as 105dB. Background noise levels in between songs dropped to the 70's which implies that the calibration of the meter was - at least crudely - about right. I showed the meter to the guys running the list (Ray & Alix) and they got the message pretty quickly, forcing the volume down to nearer 100dB - which was plenty loud enough for a small pub. My slide player was with me at the jam. He's a pro sound/video engineer and he also watched the meter with interest. I told him I'll be bringing it along to rehearsal next Tuesday and I'd expect him to back me on this one. That was £15 well spent. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alexclaber Posted September 11, 2009 Share Posted September 11, 2009 How far was your SPL meter from the PA and backline? Alex Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Happy Jack Posted September 11, 2009 Author Share Posted September 11, 2009 I sat right at the back of the room, in the corner. I was perhaps 25' from the PA (a pair of decent wall-mounted 15" jobbies), and 30' from the backline. The guy who runs the jam tends to sit at a table front & centre. When I put the SPL meter on his table to show him, the readings were averaging 4/5dB higher. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alexclaber Posted September 11, 2009 Share Posted September 11, 2009 Outdoors you'd expect the SPL to drop by 6dB with every doubling of distance from the source. Indoors it's more complicated but it was probably sitting around 115dB on-stage! Another handy indicator is that many bassists moan that an Acme Low-B2 is too quiet for most rock bands. That cab can comfortably sustain 115dB @ 1m and peak louder. Scary thing is that with ER15s in and an onstage volume of 115dB you're still getting 100dB at your ear drums. Continuous dB Permissible Exposure Time (before possible damage can occur) 85 dB 8 hours 88 dB 4 hours 91 dB 2 hours 94 dB 1 hour 97 dB 30 minutes 100 dB 15 minutes 103 dB 7.5 minutes 106 dB 3.75 min (< 4min) One thing I often notice is that many PA systems are run rather hard, and consequently with more distortion and a harsher more fatiguing sound. This is rarely consciously noticed by sound engineers and punters because the former often have a significant degree of hearing loss (particularly in the highs) and the latter don't know any better and in fact they associate this distortion with loudness. Alex Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Happy Jack Posted September 11, 2009 Author Share Posted September 11, 2009 [quote name='alexclaber' post='595452' date='Sep 11 2009, 10:14 AM']Outdoors you'd expect the SPL to drop by 6dB with every doubling of distance from the source. Indoors it's more complicated but it was probably sitting around 115dB on-stage! Scary thing is that with ER15s in and an onstage volume of 115dB you're still getting 100dB at your ear drums.[/quote] You're right about that being scary Alex ... erm ... especially since I take the plugs OUT when I actually go on-stage. I'm very happy to play with them in when I'm with my band, playing stuff I know inside out, but when I'm on-stage (as I was last night) with two sh*t-hot guitarists and a wildly-competent drummer, my chief concern is NOT to drop a bollock. No matter how good the ER15's are, when I'm venturing into the unknown I like to be able to hear [i]everything[/i]. Feel free to tell me what a fool I am, I won't be arguing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cheddatom Posted September 11, 2009 Share Posted September 11, 2009 I do that as well, even now i'm playing drums. Gigging with ear-plugs in just doesn't feel right. I'll have to change my attitude. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alexclaber Posted September 11, 2009 Share Posted September 11, 2009 [quote name='Happy Jack' post='595457' date='Sep 11 2009, 10:19 AM']I'm very happy to play with them in when I'm with my band, playing stuff I know inside out, but when I'm on-stage (as I was last night) with two sh*t-hot guitarists and a wildly-competent drummer, my chief concern is NOT to drop a bollock. No matter how good the ER15's are, when I'm venturing into the unknown I like to be able to hear [i]everything[/i].[/quote] You can actually hear more with the ER15s in than without them - it just takes time for your brain to adjust. By lowering the SPL level at your eardrum you reduce the distortion within your hearing system which increase the clarity. This is particularly noticeable on long gigs where the brain gets very tired from trying to remove unwanted colouration from the electrical signals being transmitted by the nerves in your inner ear. The transition between gigging with and gigging without them will be tough but it's more than worth it in the long run, both for the long-term health of your ears and for the improved sound you'll hear onstage. The ER15s do attenuate the highs a bit more than the lows (nothing like normal plugs though!) so if you already have hearing damage this will exacerbate this difference but given time your brain can compensate, and it'll do a much better job of adding some highs than taking out a ton of distortion. Bear in mind that an ear is quite like a microphone which is quite like a loudspeaker - and the higher the SPL, the higher the intermodulation and harmonic distortion with all these systems. Alex Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crikey! Posted September 12, 2009 Share Posted September 12, 2009 I agree you can hear more with earplugs in, but something about it still doesnt feel right. Just thought i'd mention Waynepunkdude checked the levels while my band was playing last night, apparently we hit 120 dB. Glad i found my earplugs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Happy Jack Posted September 12, 2009 Author Share Posted September 12, 2009 [quote name='Crikey!' post='596508' date='Sep 12 2009, 12:54 PM']Just thought i'd mention Waynepunkdude checked the levels while my band was playing last night, apparently we hit 120 dB.[/quote] [url="http://www.sengpielaudio.com/TableOfSoundPressureLevels.htm"]http://www.sengpielaudio.com/TableOfSoundPressureLevels.htm[/url] [blindingly_obvious] That's getting into genuinely dangerous territory, not just for you but for your audience too. [/blindingly_obvious] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muzz Posted September 12, 2009 Share Posted September 12, 2009 In my current band, we have our sh*t together to the level that we rehearse DI'd into our desk, with the kit miked up. We can get a good, flexible and above all [i]quiet[/i] mix through the cans, and even tailor it to the individuals. The first thing I noticed when we moved to this system (even tho we never rehearsed particularly loudly) was that I was less tired at the end of a long rehearsal evening. The second thing I noticed was that I tightened my playing up a good deal (bit like going into the studio), because a good mix gave me nowhere to hide in the general din... Gig-volume-wise, we play to the drummer, and he's good enough to be powerful without necessarily beating the crap out of the kit. It can be done, but it takes a particularly type of drummer. Although, being a drummer, he does get carried away occasionally... A good sound is always better than a louder sound, IMNSHO. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Happy Jack Posted September 12, 2009 Author Share Posted September 12, 2009 What do you do on stage, Muzz? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crikey! Posted September 13, 2009 Share Posted September 13, 2009 [quote name='Happy Jack' post='596582' date='Sep 12 2009, 02:46 PM'][url="http://www.sengpielaudio.com/TableOfSoundPressureLevels.htm"]http://www.sengpielaudio.com/TableOfSoundPressureLevels.htm[/url] [blindingly_obvious] That's getting into genuinely dangerous territory, not just for you but for your audience too. [/blindingly_obvious][/quote] Indeed. We actually asked the sound man to turn it down. It was way too loud and a lot of people didnt watch the gig because of it. Fun though. I successfully managed to leave my earplugs at tonights gig and i am going emergency ear plug shopping tomorrow morning. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jobiebass Posted September 13, 2009 Share Posted September 13, 2009 [quote name='Happy Jack' post='594827' date='Sep 10 2009, 03:52 PM']I've discussed this with a number of drummers (including the one in my band) and they all say much the same thing - those e-drums are really not the same as real drums, they don't feel right, the sticks don't bounce right, etc. Good for disco stuff and mid-period Phil Collins (B-Bow B-Bow Pow Pow Pow) but that's about it. We use them in my garage for working up new material but never on stage, and if you're not going to play them live then (arguably) you shouldn't rehearse with them either.[/quote] Roland Mesh V drums are pretty close with how the sticks bounce tho. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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