richrips Posted August 13, 2009 Share Posted August 13, 2009 I'm looking to build a pair of jack 112 cabs from Bill Fitzmaurice website. a couple of speakers are mentioned as suitable. The eminence 3012ho looks like a classy piece of kit but i'm finding it hard to find (especially reasonably priced...) in the uk. [url="http://www.eminence.com/proaudio_speaker_detail.asp?web_detail_link=kappalite3012ho&speaker_size=12&SUB_CAT_ID=3"]http://www.eminence.com/proaudio_speaker_d...mp;SUB_CAT_ID=3[/url] Failing that, has anyone used the B&C 12 inchers? [url="http://www.bluearan.co.uk/index.php?id=BAC12NDL76&browsemode=manufacturer"]http://www.bluearan.co.uk/index.php?id=BAC...de=manufacturer[/url] anyone used the neo celestion green label 12s? [url="http://professional.celestion.com/bass/green/index.asp"]http://professional.celestion.com/bass/green/index.asp[/url] opinions, advice, comparisons, experiences and links to deals most welcome! Thanks again, Rich Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deksawyer Posted August 13, 2009 Share Posted August 13, 2009 I have a pair of B&C 12HPL64 12" Neo drivers, 4 ohm though. Yours for £150/pair inc. shipping. Same as these but 4 ohm; [url="http://www.bluearan.co.uk/index.php?id=BAC12HPL64&browsemode=manufacturer"]http://www.bluearan.co.uk/index.php?id=BAC...de=manufacturer[/url] D. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Fitzmaurice Posted August 13, 2009 Share Posted August 13, 2009 [quote name='deksawyer' post='567997' date='Aug 13 2009, 09:30 AM']I have a pair of B&C 12HPL64 12" Neo drivers, 4 ohm though. Yours for £150/pair inc. shipping. Same as these but 4 ohm; [url="http://www.bluearan.co.uk/index.php?id=BAC12HPL64&browsemode=manufacturer"]http://www.bluearan.co.uk/index.php?id=BAC...de=manufacturer[/url] D.[/quote] As with all my designs the J112 requires not only specific T/S specs but also specific driver response. You should be posting your question at [url="http://billfitzmaurice.net/phpBB3/"]http://billfitzmaurice.net/phpBB3/[/url], with links to the driver data sheets showing the manufacturer's axial response charts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevie Posted August 13, 2009 Share Posted August 13, 2009 [quote name='Bill Fitzmaurice' post='568009' date='Aug 13 2009, 02:37 PM']As with all my designs the J112 requires not only specific T/S specs but also specific driver response. You should be posting your question at [url="http://billfitzmaurice.net/phpBB3/"]http://billfitzmaurice.net/phpBB3/[/url], with links to the driver data sheets showing the manufacturer's axial response charts.[/quote] Bill doesn't like discussing his designs anywhere but on his own, tightly controlled website where nobody can ask embarrassing questions like, why exactly do you want to build a mid horn for your bass guitar? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TPJ Posted August 13, 2009 Share Posted August 13, 2009 (edited) [quote name='stevie' post='568133' date='Aug 13 2009, 04:29 PM']Bill doesn't like discussing his designs anywhere but on his own, tightly controlled website where nobody can ask embarrassing questions like, why exactly do you want to build a mid horn for your bass guitar?[/quote] Stevie, what are you talking about? Bill is an accomplished engineer who knows what he's talking about. Every time he offers advice all you can do is come up with a lame insult and usually no constructive advice or facts to support what you say. If you go to Bill's sight he and lots of other people with years of experience can help you. They don't generally hang out here becasue of people like Stevie who talk bollocks. Edited August 13, 2009 by TPJ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve-soar Posted August 13, 2009 Share Posted August 13, 2009 [quote name='stevie' post='568133' date='Aug 13 2009, 04:29 PM']Bill doesn't like discussing his designs anywhere but on his own, tightly controlled website where nobody can ask embarrassing questions like, why exactly do you want to build a mid horn for your bass guitar?[/quote]Eh? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveO Posted August 13, 2009 Share Posted August 13, 2009 [quote name='stevie' post='568133' date='Aug 13 2009, 05:29 PM']Bill doesn't like discussing his designs anywhere but on his own, tightly controlled website where nobody can ask embarrassing questions like, why exactly do you want to build a mid horn for your bass guitar?[/quote] Or maybe you're just cynical and Bill likes questions about his designs to be answered on his own forum so that other people who have the same problems can also benefit from the answers. In a fair and just universe Bill would obviously tell all his customers to come to Basschat for the answers. Just because only a small minority are bass players is no excuse really and I'm sure that all the sound engineers that make up the majority of his customer base will feel right at home on a forum dedicated to bass playing. Sheesh. Oh and in answer to your Qn about horns.... because it sounds better? And before you ask... yes, I'm a fan of Bill and his designs. yes, I think Bills and Alex's posts on amplification and cabinet design are most welcome on Basschat. yes, when someone makes a snide comment against either I'll give them a flame-slap. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dood Posted August 13, 2009 Share Posted August 13, 2009 [quote name='TPJ' post='568269' date='Aug 13 2009, 06:33 PM']Stevie, what are you talking about? Bill is an accomplished engineer who knows what he's talking about. Every time he offers advice all you can do is come up with a lame insult and usually no constructive advice or facts to support what you say. If you go to Bill's sight he and lots of other people with years of experience can help you. They don't generally hang out here becasue of people like Stevie who talk bollocks.[/quote] Hmmm yes, I have Pm'd Stevie about this with ref to treating Alex Claber the same as well. - Stevie - this ain't cool.. 'If you haven't got anything good to say......', I think you know how the saying ends. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alexclaber Posted August 13, 2009 Share Posted August 13, 2009 However, just to stick up for Stevie (for once! ) he does have a bit of a point. Although a midrange horn does increase the midrange sensitivity and improve the off-axis response, it adds colouration which may not be desired and increases cab size for equal LF sensitivity. It also has no benefit for excursion limited power handling which is the usual limiting factor in bass cab output. So Bill's previous assertion that a Jack 12 will beat a fEarful 12/6 or 15/6 hands down is hyperbole. If you have the power the fEarfuls are more than competitive. Alex Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevie Posted August 13, 2009 Share Posted August 13, 2009 [quote name='TPJ' post='568269' date='Aug 13 2009, 06:33 PM']Stevie, what are you talking about? Bill is an accomplished engineer who knows what he's talking about. Every time he offers advice all you can do is come up with a lame insult and usually no constructive advice or facts to support what you say. If you go to Bill's sight he and lots of other people with years of experience can help you. They don't generally hang out here becasue of people like Stevie who talk bollocks.[/quote] I think one of the fundamental principles of Basschat is that members have the freedom to express opinions about bass-related products and the marketing techniques of the various vendors without being subject to inane and baseless namecalling. If you wish to refute my statements, please go ahead, but ‘you are talking bollocks’ is not an argument and doesn’t advance your case. Perhaps you would also like to express an opinion on the statement that Bill made yesterday: “….. a lot better than the high priced 'boutique' 1x12s out there. OTOH side by side with my Jack 112 loaded with a only a 2512 they're very much also-rans. You can only do so much with a bass reflex box.” And while you’re thinking about that, here is a product developed by another ‘accomplished engineer’. This one was actually qualified and received a knighthood for his services to industry: [url="http://www.sinclairc5.com/"]http://www.sinclairc5.com/[/url] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevie Posted August 13, 2009 Share Posted August 13, 2009 (edited) [quote name='dood' post='568429' date='Aug 13 2009, 09:32 PM']Hmmm yes, I have Pm'd Stevie about this with ref to treating Alex Claber the same as well. - Stevie - this ain't cool.. 'If you haven't got anything good to say......', I think you know how the saying ends.[/quote] Dood, I haven't received your pm, but I think I'm entitled to raise questions about the statement Bill made yesterday claiming that his product outperforms all other products of its type. Especially as he provides no basis for all of his assertions. It looks like a midrange horn to me and I said so. Now, I'm quite happy to be proved wrong. Alex and I haven't always seen eye to eye, but that hasn't stopped us having a friendly relationship and I respect what he does. Edited August 13, 2009 by stevie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dood Posted August 13, 2009 Share Posted August 13, 2009 [quote name='stevie' post='568453' date='Aug 13 2009, 09:53 PM']Dood, I haven't received your pm, but I think I'm entitled to raise questions about the statement Bill made yesterday claiming that his product outperforms all other products of its type. Especially as he provides no basis for all of his assertions. It looks like a midrange horn to me and I said so. Now, I'm quite happy to be proved wrong. Alex and I haven't always seen eye to eye, but that hasn't stopped us having a friendly relationship and I respect what he does.[/quote] I couldn't find the past PM in question to send again, but the point still stands. Having an opinion is fine, thats not a problem. Just be aware of your audience - and if you mean something tongue in cheek for example - try using emoticons to give substance to your post as it appears easy for people to misunderstand your 'posting style'. Ok, move along... nothing to see here, back to the topic. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevie Posted August 13, 2009 Share Posted August 13, 2009 [quote name='dood' post='568474' date='Aug 13 2009, 10:28 PM']Ok, move along... nothing to see here, back to the topic.[/quote] Well, back on topic, the answer to the original question is that if Bill says you can only use one particular driver in his design, you are a bit stuck. I find it hard to believe that only one driver will work in what is looks like quite a simple cabinet, but there you are. [OK, Dood?] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wateroftyne Posted August 13, 2009 Share Posted August 13, 2009 [quote name='stevie' post='568486' date='Aug 13 2009, 10:42 PM']Well, back on topic, the answer to the original question is that if Bill says you can only use one particular driver in his design, you are a bit stuck. I find it hard to believe that only one driver will work in what is looks like quite a simple cabinet, but there you are. [OK, Dood?][/quote] Try posting something with the sarcasm button switched off. You never know - you might like it, and people might be prepared to engage you a bit more. Just sayin'. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dood Posted August 13, 2009 Share Posted August 13, 2009 [quote name='stevie' post='568486' date='Aug 13 2009, 10:42 PM'] [OK, Dood?][/quote] I don't have the problem - but yes - that's much better. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Fitzmaurice Posted August 13, 2009 Share Posted August 13, 2009 [quote name='alexclaber' post='568439' date='Aug 13 2009, 04:40 PM']So Bill's previous assertion that a Jack 12 will beat a fEarful 12/6 or 15/6 hands down is hyperbole. If you have the power the fEarfuls are more than competitive. Alex[/quote]'If' being the operative word. I run a Superfly myself, and with it I have to run two cabs the equivalent of fEarful 12/6 (3012 HO/ Celestion NTR06-1705B loaded) to deliver as much clean output as one 2512 loaded J112. [quote]Although a midrange horn does increase the midrange sensitivity and improve the off-axis response, it adds colouration which may not be desired and increases cab size for equal LF sensitivity. It also has no benefit for excursion limited power handling which is the usual limiting factor in bass cab output.[/quote] The acoustic loading of even a short horn does increase excursion limited power, and low frequency sensitivity as well. I tested my J112 side by side with a reflex loaded box of exactly the same size, loaded with the same driver. The J112 beat the reflex across the board save around 1kHz. You do have to give up something somewhere to gain it somewhere else. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hamster Posted August 13, 2009 Share Posted August 13, 2009 [quote name='richrips' post='567763' date='Aug 13 2009, 10:56 AM']I'm looking to build a pair of jack 112 cabs from Bill Fitzmaurice website. a couple of speakers are mentioned as suitable. The eminence 3012ho looks like a classy piece of kit but i'm finding it hard to find (especially reasonably priced...) in the uk. [url="http://www.eminence.com/proaudio_speaker_detail.asp?web_detail_link=kappalite3012ho&speaker_size=12&SUB_CAT_ID=3"]http://www.eminence.com/proaudio_speaker_d...mp;SUB_CAT_ID=3[/url] Failing that, has anyone used the B&C 12 inchers? [url="http://www.bluearan.co.uk/index.php?id=BAC12NDL76&browsemode=manufacturer"]http://www.bluearan.co.uk/index.php?id=BAC...de=manufacturer[/url] anyone used the neo celestion green label 12s? [url="http://professional.celestion.com/bass/green/index.asp"]http://professional.celestion.com/bass/green/index.asp[/url] opinions, advice, comparisons, experiences and links to deals most welcome! Thanks again, Rich[/quote] Stick with what Bill recommends. You can get them through Ebay here - [url="http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Eminence-Kappalite-3012HO-Neodymium-12-Speaker-3012-HO_W0QQitemZ140320324036QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item20abbe39c4&_trksid=p3286.m63.l1177"]http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Eminence-Kappalite-3...p3286.m63.l1177[/url] See if the seller will reduce the shipping for two units, you might get 2 of them for £300 delivered Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevie Posted August 14, 2009 Share Posted August 14, 2009 [quote name='wateroftyne' post='568504' date='Aug 13 2009, 11:05 PM']Try posting something with the sarcasm button switched off. You never know - you might like it, and people might be prepared to engage you a bit more. Just sayin'.[/quote] That’s OK, WoT. I thought I was expressing scepticism about a commercial company’s excessive claims for their product. Sorry if it came across the wrong way. IMO there are lots of good reasons why the cab richrips wants to build is not a good idea – not least of which is that it seems to comparable in size to a 2 x 12. It’s just a shame that the thread has degenerated into a discussion of personalities and posting styles. Anyway, I’m hoping to get away for a long weekend now. So you might be spared my sarcasm for a while at least. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alexclaber Posted August 14, 2009 Share Posted August 14, 2009 [quote name='Bill Fitzmaurice' post='568534' date='Aug 13 2009, 11:32 PM']'If' being the operative word. I run a Superfly myself, and with it I have to run two cabs the equivalent of fEarful 12/6 (3012 HO/ Celestion NTR06-1705B loaded) to deliver as much clean output as one 2512 loaded J112.[/quote] Well if you will insist on using such a spectacularly wimpy amp... Alex Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Fitzmaurice Posted August 14, 2009 Share Posted August 14, 2009 [quote name='alexclaber' post='568893' date='Aug 14 2009, 07:14 AM']Well if you will insist on using such a spectacularly wimpy amp... Alex[/quote]Between the infirmities of age and my Scot blood that won't allow me to pay more than I have to the Superfly meets my requirements for weight and price. Since my speakers have the requisite sensitivity to give me the output I want 'tis hardly problematic. But I'm hardly the only person with less than a kilowatt at my disposal, and this does bring up a valid point about long excursion high power single woofer cabs: while they may have the potential to have output equal to larger multiple woofer cabs, they'll only do so with adequate power. Potential purchasers of said speakers who don't have better than 200 watts or so may find that, unless they want to get a new amp, they may be better off with the higher sensitivity offered by dual woofer cabs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MythSte Posted August 14, 2009 Share Posted August 14, 2009 If Alex Claber and Bill FitzM met do you think they'd create some sort of sonic boom? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
richrips Posted August 14, 2009 Author Share Posted August 14, 2009 I have managed to source £260 for a pair of 3012ho's but am reluctant to order before hearing opinions on the two manufacturers below. Interestingly the kappalite is available from approx £190/pair in the states....damn the atlantic! Back to my original questions please, has anyone used any of the B&C 12's? [url="http://www.bluearan.co.uk/index.php?id=BAC...de=manufacturer"]http://www.bluearan.co.uk/index.php?id=BAC...de=manufacturer[/url] anyone used the neo celestion green label 12s? [url="http://professional.celestion.com/bass/green/index.asp"]http://professional.celestion.com/bass/green/index.asp[/url] I'm happy with a cabinet design and in an ideal world would use a 3012ho straight away, but i'm trying to balance watts/quality/response/sensitivity against pounds. Uni, recession, and sonic perfection are tough to mix! Apologies Bill if you feel this thread should be on your forum. I prefer basschat for questions about availability and costs (because it is UK specific). Your forum is indeed a wealth of technical information and i'm sure i will be using it during my build. As a fairly new member, i don't want to upset anyone, but i'm only looking for open, intelligent, polite information, not 20 posts of bickering and slander! Lay off each other! experinces with celestion or b&c neo 12s anyone? Thanks, Rich Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alexclaber Posted August 14, 2009 Share Posted August 14, 2009 The problem is that anyone with experience of those other drivers won't have experience of them in the Jack 12, and that's the only kind of experience that counts. Based on my knowledge of Bill's other mid-horn designs you'll need a rising response in the midrange to compensate for the lowpass nature of the horn. Alex Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Fitzmaurice Posted August 14, 2009 Share Posted August 14, 2009 [quote name='alexclaber' post='569164' date='Aug 14 2009, 10:54 AM']The problem is that anyone with experience of those other drivers won't have experience of them in the Jack 12, and that's the only kind of experience that counts. Based on my knowledge of Bill's other mid-horn designs you'll need a rising response in the midrange to compensate for the lowpass nature of the horn. Alex[/quote]There's an open thread on my forum right now from someone in the UK who built OTop 12s using drivers that were not recommended, but because someone on another forum said they were OK he used them anyway. The cabs don't work right. I have a support forum specifically to help builders avoid such mistakes. Ignore it at your own peril. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZMech Posted August 14, 2009 Share Posted August 14, 2009 [quote name='SteveO' post='568416' date='Aug 13 2009, 09:18 PM']I'll give them a flame-slap. [/quote] That sounds like a brilliant idea, now I just night some gloves, a lighter, and some kerosene... umm, yeah, bass amp stuff... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
.gif.9ad672bb8b84505709f76b39c8c256ec.gif)
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.