WarPig Posted June 25, 2009 Share Posted June 25, 2009 The other day i watched a Mythbusters ep where they tried to use vibration to set of some rifles, they used square speakers to push out various low frequencies. They mentioned something about having more surface area from it being square which makes sense. Technically, would say a 15inch square driver work fine in a cab designed for a round 15in driver (obviously an altered hole) and push out abit more air for the same size cab? So could this be the next step in bass cabinet/speaker making? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alexclaber Posted June 25, 2009 Share Posted June 25, 2009 The problem would lie in making a high excursion surround - how would you deal with the corners? Various '80s cheaper hi-fi speakers have square drivers because they thought it looked good. Increasing the speaker area in a box is only one part of the puzzle - unless you make cabs very deep then there's usually more than enough baffle space to get the cone area you need and squeezing too much cone area into a small box kills off the sensitivity in the lows. And without excursion all the cone area in the world isn't going to make big bottom and then you're back to the issue of making a surround that can flex back and forth and control the speaker location laterally whilst not causing extra stress at the sharp turn of the corners. Alex Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Foxen Posted June 25, 2009 Share Posted June 25, 2009 If you look at Mythbusters with some real science, it tends to fall over. Especially the brown note one where they were playing 'sounds' in the single digit freq range though speakers that jsut won't do it. Think they revisited that one later, but ain't caught it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
escholl Posted June 25, 2009 Share Posted June 25, 2009 mythbusters generally have dubious science at best, and usually come to the conclusion they want to come to, regardless of whether it's correct or not. i watch it, i don't know why as it annoys me, definitely a case of broadcasting to the lowest common denominator there -- treat the viewer like a complete moron seems to be their approach. anyways, as usual Alex is entirely correct esp. in regards to the speaker surrounds. car systems are generally an absolute joke for doing anything more than making one frequency really loud and with massive amounts of distortion. they are mostly sold entirely on marketing BS and cater exclusively to the very same class of people who seem to believe that stickers make your car go faster. as with everything, there are exceptions -- some car systems can be really quite good. odds are, as with anything, the less flashy and annoying it is, the better it likely is. round speakers are also much stronger for a given weight and material composition due to their geometric shape, and thus less likely to flex or have only parts of the driver responding (although that is obviously unpreventable at higher frequencies.) it's not so much about surface area as it is about efficiency and displacement Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WarPig Posted June 25, 2009 Author Share Posted June 25, 2009 (edited) Consider this Busted *gets coat Edited June 25, 2009 by WarPig Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EdwardHimself Posted June 25, 2009 Share Posted June 25, 2009 The thing about having a speaker that is square is that you're just going to put stress on the corners. Engineers always want to cut out corners where possible because that way you get rid of stress points meaning that you can make the thing have more power handling and that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nash Posted June 25, 2009 Share Posted June 25, 2009 car sub. round is best Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kongo Posted June 25, 2009 Share Posted June 25, 2009 I like Mythbusters...A lot of stuff they did is real and has answered many of my questions such as: Peeing on an electric rail line / power station = Busted Blowing up a car by shooting it's gas tank = Busted Taking cover from bullet fire behind a car = Busted Catapulting someone using a reach truck = Busted Shooting someone under water = Busted Many things on there are interesting...Makes great conversation too! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
small_lump_of_green_putty Posted June 25, 2009 Share Posted June 25, 2009 why are surrounds necessary anyway? why isn't it possible to design a speaker that has something in common with a piston? thats pretty much how a speaker operates anyway isn't it? a piston for moving air? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Foxen Posted June 25, 2009 Share Posted June 25, 2009 [quote name='small_lump_of_green_putty' post='524205' date='Jun 25 2009, 10:47 PM']why are surrounds necessary anyway? why isn't it possible to design a speaker that has something in common with a piston? thats pretty much how a speaker operates anyway isn't it? a piston for moving air?[/quote] Friction and sealing. Hard to get a seal between moving parts without lots of friction, and you don't wanna be oiling your cab between songs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WarPig Posted June 25, 2009 Author Share Posted June 25, 2009 [quote name='Kongo' post='524075' date='Jun 25 2009, 07:59 PM']I like Mythbusters...A lot of stuff they did is real and has answered many of my questions such as: Peeing on an electric rail line / power station = Busted Blowing up a car by shooting it's gas tank = Busted Taking cover from bullet fire behind a car = Busted Catapulting someone using a reach truck = Busted Shooting someone under water = Busted Many things on there are interesting...Makes great conversation too![/quote] You're not wrong when you're right me ol matey. Another reason i watch it.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
small_lump_of_green_putty Posted June 25, 2009 Share Posted June 25, 2009 [quote name='Mr. Foxen' post='524234' date='Jun 25 2009, 11:09 PM']Friction and sealing. Hard to get a seal between moving parts without lots of friction, and you don't wanna be oiling your cab between songs.[/quote] I still don't understand why a seal is important around the edges. As for the lubrication, there's something called teflon these days, isn't there? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
escholl Posted June 25, 2009 Share Posted June 25, 2009 [quote name='WarPig' post='524250' date='Jun 25 2009, 11:15 PM']You're not wrong when you're right me ol matey. Another reason i watch it.... [/quote] i liked scottie better Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hubrad Posted June 25, 2009 Share Posted June 25, 2009 [quote name='Mr. Foxen' post='524234' date='Jun 25 2009, 11:09 PM']Friction and sealing. Hard to get a seal between moving parts without lots of friction, and you don't wanna be oiling your cab between songs.[/quote] Actually I like the theatrical image that springs to mind.. possibly install a non-functional oilway for a bit of visual humour between songs? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kongo Posted June 26, 2009 Share Posted June 26, 2009 [quote name='WarPig' post='524250' date='Jun 25 2009, 11:15 PM']You're not wrong when you're right me ol matey. Another reason i watch it.... [/quote] Lol yeah...when she's not shouting at Tory that is! Still, a bird into mad science and likes blowing things up...cool man! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Fitzmaurice Posted June 26, 2009 Share Posted June 26, 2009 [quote name='small_lump_of_green_putty' post='524346' date='Jun 25 2009, 07:09 PM']I still don't understand why a seal is important around the edges. As for the lubrication, there's something called teflon these days, isn't there? [/quote][url="http://electronics.howstuffworks.com/speaker5.htm"]http://electronics.howstuffworks.com/speaker5.htm[/url] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
small_lump_of_green_putty Posted June 26, 2009 Share Posted June 26, 2009 Hmm, thanks. That explains why a speaker works but it doesn't explain the need for a seal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alexclaber Posted June 26, 2009 Share Posted June 26, 2009 [quote name='small_lump_of_green_putty' post='524488' date='Jun 26 2009, 03:30 AM']Hmm, thanks. That explains why a speaker works but it doesn't explain the need for a seal.[/quote] If it wasn't sealed you'd hear air whistling as it leaks around the cone under compression or rarefaction. Alex Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
small_lump_of_green_putty Posted June 26, 2009 Share Posted June 26, 2009 [quote name='alexclaber' post='524509' date='Jun 26 2009, 07:36 AM']If it wasn't sealed you'd hear air whistling as it leaks around the cone under compression or rarefaction. Alex[/quote] OK thanks for that mate. So do you reckon that whistling could be designed out with a set of piston rings? I was just thinking that if the cone and the surround were air tight but otherwise not fixed to each other, then the excursion could be potentially much greater. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alexclaber Posted June 26, 2009 Share Posted June 26, 2009 [quote name='small_lump_of_green_putty' post='524550' date='Jun 26 2009, 08:27 AM']OK thanks for that mate. So do you reckon that whistling could be designed out with a set of piston rings? I was just thinking that if the cone and the surround were air tight but otherwise not fixed to each other, then the excursion could be potentially much greater.[/quote] The limiting factor in excursion tends to be the motor system, not the surround, and that's where R&D still needs to be focused. Best thing I've seen was Adire's split gap topology which gave them huge excursion but low inductance and decent sensitivity. Alex Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
escholl Posted June 26, 2009 Share Posted June 26, 2009 [quote name='alexclaber' post='524560' date='Jun 26 2009, 08:38 AM']The limiting factor in excursion tends to be the motor system, not the surround, and that's where R&D still needs to be focused. Best thing I've seen was Adire's split gap topology which gave them huge excursion but low inductance and decent sensitivity. Alex[/quote] it seems they've gone out of business -- yet another casualty of the recession, i would guess there's an article about their coil technology [url="http://www.adireaudio.com/Files/XBL2TechPaper.pdf"]here[/url]. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alexclaber Posted June 26, 2009 Share Posted June 26, 2009 [quote name='escholl' post='524579' date='Jun 26 2009, 09:03 AM']it seems they've gone out of business -- yet another casualty of the recession, i would guess there's an article about their coil technology [url="http://www.adireaudio.com/Files/XBL2TechPaper.pdf"]here[/url].[/quote] Indeed, hence the was. Hopefully we'll see someone else invest in that concept. Alex Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
small_lump_of_green_putty Posted June 26, 2009 Share Posted June 26, 2009 Good god, an X-Max of 27.3mm?!!! Is that how Servo drive subs work too, or is it a different mechanism? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
escholl Posted June 26, 2009 Share Posted June 26, 2009 [quote name='small_lump_of_green_putty' post='524600' date='Jun 26 2009, 09:22 AM']Good god, an X-Max of 27.3mm?!!! Is that how Servo drive subs work too, or is it a different mechanism?[/quote] i believe they use various forms of feedback to help increase the linearity of the cone movement -- basically giving the amp more control over the driver. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigBeefChief Posted June 26, 2009 Share Posted June 26, 2009 I concur. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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