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boabskiboab

Most accurate tuner?

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[quote name='BigBeefChief' post='495916' date='May 23 2009, 11:23 AM']I agree with lots of people on here. I'd just rather question marketing literature than take it at face value. It's unfortunate (for you) that you don't enjoy any non-orchestral music prior to the invention of overpriced tuners. There's some pretty good stuff out there.[/quote]

It isn't marketing material in the normal sense of it being hype - what they say is factual and true, I know 'cos I have one.

Don't misquote me please - I did not say I don't enjoy music prior to invention of tuners. I just don't listen to out of tune sh*te that a 3 year old could play, because normally it does not have any appeal. I was brought up by a jazz playing parent, my youth was spent listening and watching the likes of Zeppelin, Deep Purple, Jethro Tull and the crap commercial stuff around at that time and unfortunately punk.

I just don't listen to stuff now that offends my ears. I would not have believed 40 years ago that my musical taste would change to appreciate the stuff I do now, which is MAINLY modern jazz and modern classical. And I think it is due to my intensive study of the art of music of all genres over the last 45 years.
But it has and will no doubt will develop in the future. As will yours.

[quote]What is the point of tuning an instrument to such a precise degree that the second you step into the next (warmer) room or start playing anything, the tuning changes anyway? I suppose prior to playing you can claim to have the most scientifically in-tune instrument in your post code (if that's your thing)?[/quote]

I rarely use a strobe tuner in a live situation. They are essential in a studio or when setting up an instrument. Reading what I said originally would have saved you (and me) having to answer this again.
[quote]This is not a facetious question, but do you think you could tell the difference in a band situation? Maybe you can, I believe the majority couldn't. Maybe you couldn't?[/quote]

Yes I can. And so can a lot of musicians and non - musicians.

[quote]As for the ridiculing, belittling and trolling thing, I won't have a go at you for the accusation as I know you don't mean it. I could accuse you of making a personal attack (which I know is something you hate), but again, I know it's in jest, so I still love you as a bass playing brother.[/quote]

I'm sure............... Edited by rslaing

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[quote name='rslaing' post='495908' date='May 23 2009, 11:18 AM']Remember, the topic is all about "The most accurate tuner"[/quote]

Good point... I missed that... Peterson wins... it is more Accurate. Without doubt.

We should have a 'Most Practical Tuner' thread as well then I can win with my TU-2 :-)

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I didn't misquote you rslaing.

I asked:

[i]"What did bass players do before these 200 quid tuners? Do all those early recordings make your ears bleed?"[/i]

..and you responded.

[i]"Yes they do make my ears bleed, which is why I don't listen to them. "[/i]

But that's beside the point. Given we seem to have vastly different tastes in music, I'm not surprised we disaagree on this. Its a shame you can't disagree with me without feeling the need to call me a troll. But again, I still love you man. Maybe I just don't think that music is the serious business that you do?

You're an interesting character rslaing. On one had you accuse others of being musical dinosaurs, but you're also prepared to dismiss an entire genre of music in punk. I have dismissed Jazz as an entire genre, but then I'm a self confessed opinionated w***er!

As for your ability to discern how an instrument was tuned by ear, I'm impressed. I question how many non-musos can. I remember reading a post on here where someone tuned half a step down for an entire covers gig (where the rest of the band in statndard tuning) and not one punter noticed!

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[quote name='rslaing' post='495908' date='May 23 2009, 11:18 AM']Remember, the topic is all about "The most accurate tuner"[/quote]

So flog me or send the police.

There is no point in having the most accurate note tuner if the whole instrument, as a musical instrument cannot cope. You can Strobe tune all you want, ultimately all you are ever doing is identifying a start point to which the rest of the instrument needs to be referenced to.

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Has anyone used this app on the iphone - would be interested to hear if it is any good?

[quote name='bythesea' post='495630' date='May 22 2009, 10:59 PM']Not that I have used a Peterson, but if you have an iPhone there is a Strobosoft [url="http://www.strobosoft.com/istrobosoft"]app[/url] available - it's on the AppStore at £5.99[/quote]

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[quote name='rslaing' post='495833' date='May 23 2009, 10:03 AM'][url="http://www.buzzfeiten.com/howitworks/howitworks.htm"]Feiten Tuning System[/url][/quote]
Anyone know anyone who uses it? Apart from that bloke in the pub.

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[quote name='johnnylager' post='496028' date='May 23 2009, 01:51 PM']Anyone know anyone who uses it? Apart from that bloke in the pub.[/quote]
Buzz Feiten?!

But I know what you mean!
Similarly, there's hardly been a big rush to adopt compensated nuts (As now used by Musicman).
Tuning? Too.. Many... Variables!
Not least;
Temperature
Humidity
String condition
Integrity of tuners (on the bass)
Solidity of the bridge
Fret condition

I use a DTR1000. Seems to work okay. I've Heard of Peterson, but have never seen one. I wouldn't know where to get one, either!
Don't say "Off the 'net". I'm sick of various delivery services destroying my goods / never receiving them / getting them 6 months later.

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[quote name='synaesthesia' post='495984' date='May 23 2009, 12:42 PM']So flog me or send the police.

There is no point in having the most accurate note tuner if the whole instrument, as a musical instrument cannot cope. You can Strobe tune all you want, ultimately all you are ever doing is identifying a start point to which the rest of the instrument needs to be referenced to.[/quote]

Wrong...............and I can't even be bothered to explain why. It's all in my previous posts about how the Peterson compensates for the failings in the even temperament method on fretted instruments..ZZZZzzzzzzz............. Edited by rslaing

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[quote name='Lfalex v1.1' post='496034' date='May 23 2009, 02:08 PM']Buzz Feiten?!

But I know what you mean!
Similarly, there's hardly been a big rush to adopt compensated nuts (As now used by Musicman).
Tuning? Too.. Many... Variables!
Not least;
Temperature
Humidity
String condition
Integrity of tuners (on the bass)
Solidity of the bridge
Fret condition

I use a DTR1000. Seems to work okay. I've Heard of Peterson, but have never seen one. I wouldn't know where to get one, either!
Don't say "Off the 'net". I'm sick of various delivery services destroying my goods / never receiving them / getting them 6 months later.[/quote]

Yes, the Feiten system has broadly the same effect as the compensated nut system. Feiten invented it, (he is himself a first class session guitarist and artist - his earlier albums included players the likes of Randy Brecker, Airto Moreira, Ray Baretto, Dave Holland, ), and the others followed, with some manufacturers now using the product at build stage. Washburn being the most recent.

In spite of your claim [i]"Similarly, there's hardly been a big rush to adopt compensated nuts"
[/i] , this is quite simply not true. There are huge numbers of pro musicians who have it on their instruments, and you can find out who simply by googling Buzz Feiten, or having a word with any of the qualified Feiten installers. It really does make a huge difference to fretted instruments.

[url="http://www.buzzfeiten.com/artists/featuredartists.htm"]Some session players and their thoughts on the Feiten system[/url]


In spite of your list of contributing factors to tuning problems, it really is a musicians prime responsibility to ensure that he is in tune, and his instrument does not have the problems (including mechanical) that detract from the job in hand.

Or you will indeed have tuning problems.

Of course - it doesn't matter if you aren't or can't be bothered.

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[quote name='rslaing' post='495895' date='May 23 2009, 11:08 AM']You are welcome. And thanks for the totally expected response that has contributed magnificently to the topic.

And to cordially respond to your points.

I do listen to music pre-1997, some of the material I like was recorded in the 1930's. I prefer classical stuff which if the orchestra adopted your theories, would make things very interesting.[/quote]

Orchestral music doesn't operate anywhere near 0.1 cent tuning precision/accuracy.

Petersen strobostomps are certainly the most precise pedal tuners out there. They look great, are easy to use and I'd certainly prefer to use one for setting intonation on a fretted instrument. I'd choose one over a TU-2 any day, if I had the cash to spare.

However, that level of precision is overkill for most practical musical situations, regardless of the marketing hype on Petersen's website. Your ears simply aren't sensitive to that level of precision. A tempered perfect fourth is inherently 2 cents out of tune, but we don't find string dependent levels of discomfort between the upper partials that Petersen are suggesting we would. In any case, how accurate is fret placement, even on top end guitars? For the high A example Petersen give, you'd need a fret placement accuracy of around 10 micrometers... is that even possible?

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[quote name='dlloyd' post='496564' date='May 24 2009, 12:33 PM']Orchestral music doesn't operate anywhere near 0.1 cent tuning precision/accuracy.

Petersen strobostomps are certainly the most precise pedal tuners out there. They look great, are easy to use and I'd certainly prefer to use one for setting intonation on a fretted instrument. I'd choose one over a TU-2 any day, if I had the cash to spare.

However, that level of precision is overkill for most practical musical situations, regardless of the marketing hype on Petersen's website. Your ears simply aren't sensitive to that level of precision. A tempered perfect fourth is inherently 2 cents out of tune, but we don't find string dependent levels of discomfort between the upper partials that Petersen are suggesting we would. In any case, how accurate is fret placement, even on top end guitars? For the high A example Petersen give, you'd need a fret placement accuracy of around 10 micrometers... is that even possible?[/quote]


But rslaing can hear it. We know so because he says so.

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Haven't read the whole thread, but +1 to the idea that however well you tune it, 1/10th or 1/100th of a cent, whatever, the moment you play a real note it will be out of tune by that amount.

Plucking it hard will make it sharp
Any temperature change will make it go up or down
Fretting a note slightly harder than usual will make it go sharp
Fretting a note other than directly downwards will make it go sharp
Fretting two notes together might make it go flat (extra load on the neck)
Iintonation setting is only going to be accurate at the points you actually set it, be it the 12th, 19th fret or what ever.

etc etc

And that's before we've even started on the fretless
... or non equal temperament tunings on a fretted.
... or relief in the neck etc


Highly accurate and great bits of kit some of these tuners might be, but surely, to a large extent, thay are a solution without a problem!

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Not much use for gigs, but great for set-ups and studio. Lots of features, it's free to trial (in perpetuity :) ) and you can scale the screen as large as you like.

[url="http://www.aptuner.com"]http://www.aptuner.com[/url]

Tried a strobostomp. It was OK, I s'pose. Edited by skankdelvar

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[quote name='BigBeefChief' post='496628' date='May 24 2009, 03:02 PM']What's wrong with good old fashioned guess work?[/quote]

That just ends in Jazz.

Y'see, it's all "ha-ha, fun and games" till the monkey bites you in the eye. Edited by skankdelvar

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Here we go again - the naughty boys at the back of the classroom are devaluing the thread and way off topic again.

In case you forgot, the topic is [b]THE MOST ACCURATE TUNER[/b], which appears to be the ST 200 or the Peterson. There have been a significant number of posts that have not even touched the thread title.

I should have known better than to attempt to add what I consider is useful info where there are a number of individuals who don't contribute anything that may be either relevant or helpful.

I think one person gave some useful advice to one of my comments - which was it's futile to even attempt to reason with the negative influences in the forum.

However, (dinosaurs apart - who know doubt would have questioned the importance of the wheel were they around at the time it was invented) , I would like to thank those who have told me that at least some of the info was helpful to them. Edited by rslaing

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[quote name='Clive Thorne' post='496599' date='May 24 2009, 01:58 PM']Haven't read the whole thread, but +1 to the idea that however well you tune it, 1/10th or 1/100th of a cent, whatever, the moment you play a real note it will be out of tune by that amount.

Plucking it hard will make it sharp
Any temperature change will make it go up or down
Fretting a note slightly harder than usual will make it go sharp
Fretting a note other than directly downwards will make it go sharp
Fretting two notes together might make it go flat (extra load on the neck)
Iintonation setting is only going to be accurate at the points you actually set it, be it the 12th, 19th fret or what ever.

etc etc

And that's before we've even started on the fretless
... or non equal temperament tunings on a fretted.
... or relief in the neck etc


Highly accurate and great bits of kit some of these tuners might be, but surely, to a large extent, thay are a solution without a problem![/quote]

You should have read the previous posts.

The Peterson combats a lot of the points you have made, including problems with equal temperament on fretted instruments.

The others points you have made are down to bad technique - so I suppose a Strobe tuner will definitely not help with that.

A lot of the criticism here is coming from people who haven't got a strobe tuner, so logically their comments can be disregarded. They also haven't got a clue about the various benefits as they assume it is just a more accurate tuner - it isn't. It actually adjusts the tuning of the guitar (basically making it "out of tune" with itself) but making it more in tune aurally. But I can see there is no point in attempting to explain this judging by the reactions of the tone deaf amongst us.

I suggest people try one (it takes a few weeks to get the old tuner mentality out of the way, and actually learn how to use the strobe to it's greatest efect) and then give a more accurate appraisal instead of just giving reasons why they "think/assume" a cheapo pile of crap tuner could do the same job. Edited by rslaing

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[quote name='rslaing' post='496645' date='May 24 2009, 03:41 PM']You should have read the previous posts.

The Peterson combats a lot of the points you have made, including problems with equal temperament on fretted instruments.[/quote]

No it doesn't.

It can adjust the tuning of every single note on a given string so that a single note will be more in tune with the key you are playing in. The only application for this is if you are consistently playing one specific interval on a given string. Great if you're playing simple guitar chords, but not much use for a bass player.*




*I'm certainly willing to be corrected on this. Edited by dlloyd

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If accuracy is the question, what is the target? I'd have though it would be your ears, but this seems to be a lot of numbers. If it sounds in tune that has got to be your aim, so accuracy shgould be defined as ability to make stuff sound in tune, rather than accuracy to produce a particularly exact number of oscillations per second.

In Caricatures we played a non-stop half hour set, there were parts intended you give each of us a chance to tune up (at one point we had a bit where the guitarist changed tuning entirely). We all used Boss TU2, and occasionally an adjustment by ear, due to the low A on the guitar never quite sounding right (probably an intonation issue, since the string went from D to A during the set). Being able to adjust on the fly is a pretty useful ability. I suck at it, but I generally can ensure my bass will stay fairly well in tune.

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* If you're speaking specifically about using one with the Buzz Feiten system, then absolutely... it will work better than a standard bass or guitar tuned with a standard tuner. Edited by dlloyd

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[quote name='dlloyd' post='496654' date='May 24 2009, 04:06 PM']No it doesn't.

It can adjust the tuning of every single note on a given string so that a single note will be more in tune with the key you are playing in. The only application for this is if you are consistently playing one specific interval on a given string. Great if you're playing simple guitar chords, but not much use for a bass player.*




*I'm certainly willing to be corrected on this.[/quote]

OK. From the Peterson site, which explains why tuning is a compromise to obtain more pleasing aural results. And this is why in conjunction with either a compensated nut or the Feiten system, a strobe which basically makes your instrument out of tune "technically" can obtain far superior AND MORE ACCURATE results than a cheap reference type of tuner.

Please remember that the strobe tuners are NOT ordinary tuners, they have the capability of allowing for offsets automatically, are very accurate thereby overcoming the problems with even tempered tuning. They are so precise that because each instrument, even of the same brand, can vary in their capacity to be tuned properly, the user can adapt the strobe tuner to match the instrument and obtain the best possible tuning ALL OVER THE INSTRUMENTS FRETBOARD.

[i]It is perhaps a cruel joke on all of us to be given such remarkable sensitivity in judging musical pitch intervals between simultaneous sounds. The mathematics of positioning (tempering) 12 scale notes in an octave prevents any more than a handful of perfectly harmonious chords for any one tuning of those notes (temperament). We have limited options:

1. We can equally space the 12 notes in the octaves so that chords of each given type (major, minor, b5#7-9, etc.) sound equally good in all keys. This is called equal temperament, the common "standard" in modern music. Unfortunately, this temperament scheme also guarantees that all chords of a given type sound equally bad! Not even one chord will have intervals that sound exactly in tune!

2. We can purposely shift certain scale notes closer to or farther from their neighbors to make perfect intervals or chords in some places. If we choose wisely, we can make the most important chords in a given key be the perfect ones. This is the concept behind Just Intonation (JST in the Temperament Menu of Peterson tuners). In the key of C, the chords of C major, F major, and G major can each have perfectly harmonious tuning intervals. Unfortunately, other chords, especially those in more remote keys like C# and F#, sound much worse than they would in equal temperament. If an instrument like a piano is tuned in Just Major temperament for the key of C, notes and chords that fall in the C Major scale sound wonderful. Modulating to the key of G, most chords sound good, some not quite as good. If one takes a more adventurous trek into the key of E, say, some real "ear-sores" start to develop in certain chords and intervals. Historically, the clinkers are dubbed "wolf tones" which gives some indication of their "charm".

3. Between the extremes given above, there are countless compromises. Why not settle for some nearly perfect chords in the most popular key signatures, while keeping the "wolves" at bay in the less traveled ones? There are about as many such "well tempered" scales as there have been minds conceiving of them. Every temperament generally takes the name of its earliest inventor or biggest proponent. Some of the more successful ones, like Werkmeister (WRK), Young (YNG), Kirnberger (KRN), and Kellner (KLN), are included in current models of Peterson tuners. Besides stock historic temperaments, Peterson Virtual Strobe™ Tuners also feature unique instrument-specific temperaments such as GTR™ for guitar, BAS for bass, and (VS-II/V-SAM™ only) E9 & C6 tempered tuning for pedal steel guitar. The VS-S StroboStomp™ pedal tuner/DI also features four optimized Buzz Feiten Tuning System® presets for electric guitar, acoustic guitar, bass guitar and 12-string guitar. All Peterson tuners (except the VS-1) are user- programmable, allowing the saving of up to 244 user temperaments to memory. The V-SAM allows you to adjust any temperament to any one of 12 roots, making these temperaments available in any specific key. [/i]

[b]Also reasons why other tuners are not as accurate[/b]

If I remember, the thread was about THE MOST ACCURATE tuners

[i]Because other tuner manufacturers have decided that their idea of "close" is good enough for you. Only Peterson's stroboscopic mechanical and Virtual Strobe™ displays can get close enough to show your instrument's pitch properly and consistently on a high definition display.

A tuner can only be accurate if its display is accurate. This may sound obvious, but can a tuner really be accurate if it only has a simple green light to indicate "in tune"? Can it tell you accurately how out-of-tune you are? Can it display with equal accuracy over the entire range? Unless it has a high-definition display, the answer is of course, NO!

LED and needle-type displays are very basic and are not capable of displaying exact pitch. For example, some tuners use LED displays but never use more than twenty lights to represent 100 cents (the span of one equally-tempered semitone, or one "half-step"). This forces them to compromise or simplify the readout. This also applies to tuners with a so-called "strobe mode".

Similarly, needle tuners have a limited number of reference points across the dial (about a dozen) which has the same effect. If you hold a switched off "LCD/needle" meter at a slant, you will see these reference points already mapped out!

Imagine a tape measure which does not show subdivisions under 1 foot. That's fine if you only want to measure the proverbial "broad side of a barn", but it's not much use in custom-fitting cabinets in your kitchen. A Peterson Strobe can accurately display any tone within its range to within 1/1000th of a semitone. If this sounds like overkill, listen for yourself. The difference will astound you!

This level of accuracy is also what allows us to offer you Sweetened Tunings™ specifically for your instrument. [/i] Edited by rslaing

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The Peterson Strobe (in all its glorious forms) is probably the best affordable tuner out there and, in conjuction with the Buzz Feiten Tuning System, affords much more 'pleasing' intonation. In virtually every instance better than a cheap ref tuner.

That said, similar, but less effective, benefits can be achieved by manually offsetting the intonation by a few cents either way.

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Any strobe tuner is going to give superior tuning to a more traditional style tuner.
They're however expensive and that sheer accuracy of tuning wont be heard by most.



dont mean too much harm by this;

but has rslaing got petersons website set as his homepage; or tucked away in a "special" folder so the mrs cant see haha!

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[quote name='Greene-Mann' post='496676' date='May 24 2009, 04:54 PM']dont mean too much harm by this
but has rslaing got petersons website set as his homepage; or tucked away in a "special" folder so the mrs cant see haha![/quote]

The reason I am so appreciative of the Strobe is that for years, in spite of seemingly perfect intonation (I play 6 string basses so it probably matters more than for a 4 stringer) there were specific notes which were not in tune, and although I don't have perfect pitch, I started avoiding those fretpoints. Especially if playing solo and playing chords and or chord/melody above 12th fret.

The Peterson and Feiten system has solved it for me.

Once again, my input here is because of the title of the thread - Most Accurate Tuner.

And is spite of the various comments levied, and attempts to take the piss, I have stayed on topic.

There are some pretty "nasty" people on here, and really I don't want to be associated with negatives, or be drawn in to any situaton where I have to defend myself on a personal level. Especially when I know that some of the stuff has helped some people, along with the thousands of pounds I have spent buying stuff. So basically- f*** this for a lark.

So this is probably my last post.

Anyone who wants any help with theory etc, please feel free to continue to email me directly Edited by rslaing

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[quote name='Greene-Mann' post='496676' date='May 24 2009, 04:54 PM']Any strobe tuner is going to give superior tuning to a more traditional style tuner.
They're however expensive and that sheer accuracy of tuning wont be heard by most.



dont mean too much harm by this;

but has rslaing got petersons website set as his homepage; or tucked away in a "special" folder so the mrs cant see haha![/quote]


Specially incrypted folder I reckon. Rslaing's a known peterfile.

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