Kiwi Posted May 1, 2009 Share Posted May 1, 2009 [quote name='urb' post='476433' date='Apr 30 2009, 10:12 PM']One tip I'll add is... TURN DOWN... it's amazing how music loses so much of its dynamic range when you are play at high volume, obviously if you are into extreme volume levels then fine, but lots of other musical styles will benefit from stripping things down and leaving lots of space, it'll just make those BIG choruses sounds even bigger when everyone joins in.... just a thought.[/quote] I've tried this in a few bands and it does work in rehearsal, we got tighter because we could hear each other more clearly...but on stage we ended up being drowned out by the FOH! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alexclaber Posted May 1, 2009 Share Posted May 1, 2009 [quote name='maxrossell' post='476556' date='Apr 30 2009, 11:55 PM']...a very very long time to put together a comprehensive guide.[/quote] Tell me about it! That's why I have so much techy stuff on my website and it's only ever going to expand - there are so many problems which can be better solved by education than by spending money. Alex Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldGit Posted May 1, 2009 Share Posted May 1, 2009 Stage volume is often dictated by the drummer and that's a problem. I can appreciate the situation they are in when playing an acoustic kit. It would be like playing a bass rig with no volume controls, just on full the whole time. You get used to a way of playing that feels right but then you have to change that to fit the rest of the band. Some gigs you'd be playing normally but at some you'd have to gentle brush the strings with a feather to be at the right volume. Tricky. I may never say this again but (deep breath) it's can't be easy playing an acoustic drum kit at the right volume for each venue. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alexclaber Posted May 1, 2009 Share Posted May 1, 2009 [quote name='OldGit' post='476704' date='May 1 2009, 09:23 AM']Stage volume is often dictated by the drummer and that's a problem.[/quote] I think this problem is exacerbated by the tendancy of drummers (in fact most musicians) to put far more time and effort into everything other than learning about dynamics! We have a partial solution for this in my band (though the main solution is that our drummer is really good) in that we have two different kits - a smaller Pearl kit with 20" or 22" kick and proportionally sized toms (never checked exactly how small it is) and a bigger RCI Starlite kit (one of those Bonzo style see-thru acrylic things) with 26" kick and big toms which is far louder. Alex Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
51m0n Posted May 1, 2009 Share Posted May 1, 2009 [quote name='maxrossell' post='476556' date='Apr 30 2009, 11:55 PM']Ah, man, I have no idea how helpful that would be. Everyone has different gear, everyone wants a different sound. I'm mixing this record tomorrow and the assignment I've given the band is to bring in records that give examples of how they'd like their instruments to sound, just so I have some idea of what they're aiming for. I reckon it would take far better men than me a very very long time to put together a comprehensive guide.[/quote] +1 Getting a band to bring in stuff they want to sound 'like' as a starting point is so useful, yet you're the only person other than Bob Birthright who I've ever heard suggest or do this. It save hours of arguments I find. Top tip for all of you lot next time you are going to track or mix a demo..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigAlonBass Posted May 1, 2009 Share Posted May 1, 2009 [quote name='maxrossell' post='476575' date='May 1 2009, 12:19 AM']Or you could grow up.[/quote] Don't be silly - we're Bass Players. We need some sort of daftness to relieve the pressure of constantly having to put up with Guitards, Tub-Thumpers and Giant Egos (sorry, Vocalists) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
51m0n Posted May 1, 2009 Share Posted May 1, 2009 Get everyone in the band to play as quietly as they can. Not turning down - just playing really soft for all the verses in each song. Have a competition to see who can play the verse the most inaudibly. I've managed to get a band that was rocking out way over shouting levels down to under a normal conversation level - yes the drummer is the key! Then let everyone play the verses a little louder so they dont feel so constricted - the groove will flood back - but not louder than loud conversation ie you can still talk to each other. Then go as loud as possible in the chorus, or better yet drop some full volume stabs into the verse. You play like that live and the audience will jump a mile on each chorus'set of stabs. Works every time and you get a reputation as being brilliant. If you exaggerate this stuff when rehearsing it becomes easy quickly and you can do what you like in a live situation.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alexclaber Posted May 1, 2009 Share Posted May 1, 2009 [quote name='51m0n' post='476718' date='May 1 2009, 09:38 AM']+1 Getting a band to bring in stuff they want to sound 'like' as a starting point is so useful, yet you're the only person other than Bob Birthright who I've ever heard suggest or do this. It save hours of arguments I find. Top tip for all of you lot next time you are going to track or mix a demo...[/quote] That is such a good point! If everyone is already thinking the same then that's when bands naturally sound good (I'm such a dictator but I never have to boss anyone in my band because we're all aiming for the same goal, despite having fairly differing tastes in what we listen to) but if you have very different views and no-one is willing to compromise then the usual result is sonic mud. Alex Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maxrossell Posted May 1, 2009 Author Share Posted May 1, 2009 [quote name='51m0n' post='476718' date='May 1 2009, 09:38 AM']+1 Getting a band to bring in stuff they want to sound 'like' as a starting point is so useful, yet you're the only person other than Bob Birthright who I've ever heard suggest or do this. It save hours of arguments I find. Top tip for all of you lot next time you are going to track or mix a demo.....[/quote] Really? That's [i]insane.[/i] I would have thought it would be common sense. Like I'm doing four tracks in a day today (hardly a rare occurrence for any studio bod) and accordingly I don't want to spend hours and hours beard-stroking over the sound of a kick or a snare or what have you. Just tell me you wanna sound like Dave Grohl or Buddy Rich and let's get on with it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
escholl Posted May 1, 2009 Share Posted May 1, 2009 [quote name='maxrossell' post='476766' date='May 1 2009, 10:19 AM']Really? That's [i]insane.[/i] I would have thought it would be common sense.[/quote] me too. but then i suppose some people don't have any common sense! besides, a lot of the studio types i've met tend to be a bit set in their ways sometimes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
51m0n Posted May 1, 2009 Share Posted May 1, 2009 [quote name='maxrossell' post='476766' date='May 1 2009, 10:19 AM']Really? That's [i]insane.[/i] I would have thought it would be common sense. Like I'm doing four tracks in a day today (hardly a rare occurrence for any studio bod) and accordingly I don't want to spend hours and hours beard-stroking over the sound of a kick or a snare or what have you. Just tell me you wanna sound like Dave Grohl or Buddy Rich and let's get on with it.[/quote] No really, I've had spotty guitarists saying 'But I'm an individual - I dont sound like anyone' then obviously try and be Kirk Cobain. Its so tedious, Wastes all their time, and you end up compromising whilst tracking cos they cant explain what they want, then having to try and make up for that at mixdown - we all know that that way madness lies, especially on a budget! In my very personal opinion the only changes to tracking that you should consider by the time you get to mix down is bvs and thats only cos so few bands give them a second thought! They tend to spend hours contemplating their navel about which distortion pedal should go where in their fx chain but never give aq moments consideration to bvs. I recently had a chance to do a spot of drum programming for a remix of a Chaka Kahn/Mary J Blige track (no really!). We got the vocal as a stereo pair (not too helpful) but it was mind boggling how much effort had gone it to it. Yet conversely the structure was a mess (some peculiar bars of 9/8 and 7/8 IIRC), and it lacked a good hook, but the detail and attention on the vocal interaction and layers of harmony was just incredible! Sadly what we put forward never got considered for release as the guy didnt like the direction we were going (very classic Motown backing band thing - he couldnt see where it was going to end up or ran out of cash for the project, either way he shelved it), but it was all a bit last minute anyway. Still worth some involvement just to hear the vocal raw. I wish vocalists and bands would consider bvs as important as lead - they really are.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Funk Posted May 1, 2009 Share Posted May 1, 2009 [quote name='maxrossell' post='476766' date='May 1 2009, 10:19 AM']Really? That's [i]insane.[/i] I would have thought it would be common sense.[/quote] I've lost track of how many times I've heard that advice. It's common sense and I thought it was common advice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maxrossell Posted May 1, 2009 Author Share Posted May 1, 2009 [quote name='51m0n' post='476878' date='May 1 2009, 11:59 AM']I wish vocalists and bands would consider bvs as important as lead - they really are....[/quote] If I had a penny for every vocalist who thought they'd finished when they'd laid down the lead vocal track... I'm sometimes unduly harsh on people though. It's unfair of me to assume that a guitarist should instinctively know that sometimes we'll need to double up his parts for thickness or stereo spread, for instance, or that every drummer understands that when you're guide-tracking without a click they need to keep time even when they're not playing. My personal ruse to get around most of this is that I work as a team with another guy, I come as "producer" and he's the "engineer" (although we're really both and neither), so rather than thinking I'm interfering with their stuff, bands usually enjoy the fact that they've got a "producer" working on their record and give me more freedom to boss them around - Sometimes the only way to deal with the egos in a band is to find a way to convince them that you know far better than them. Doesn't always work, but when it does everything is so much easier. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Funk Posted May 1, 2009 Share Posted May 1, 2009 [quote name='51m0n' post='476878' date='May 1 2009, 11:59 AM']I wish vocalists and bands would consider bvs as important as lead - they really are....[/quote] If you've got a crap lead singer, more important... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maxrossell Posted May 1, 2009 Author Share Posted May 1, 2009 [quote name='The Funk' post='476895' date='May 1 2009, 12:13 PM']I've lost track of how many times I've heard that advice. It's common sense and I thought it was common advice.[/quote] Heh - I just got an email from their keyboard player, who says that she can't really think of anything that she would like to sound like, but she wants her parts to sound full, crisp and clear. I'm kind of wondering what the alternative would be? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Funk Posted May 1, 2009 Share Posted May 1, 2009 [quote name='maxrossell' post='476899' date='May 1 2009, 12:15 PM']Heh - I just got an email from their keyboard player, who says that she can't really think of anything that she would like to sound like, but she wants her parts to sound full, crisp and clear. I'm kind of wondering what the alternative would be?[/quote] Thin, dull and muddy? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
51m0n Posted May 1, 2009 Share Posted May 1, 2009 [quote name='maxrossell' post='476899' date='May 1 2009, 12:15 PM']Heh - I just got an email from their keyboard player, who says that she can't really think of anything that she would like to sound like, but she wants her parts to sound full, crisp and clear. I'm kind of wondering what the alternative would be?[/quote] I rest me case. Bloody stupid response. Course she does, even if she only says 'I've got my timbres sorted, but I want the pads to sit in the mix like they do in this track' would be better. Musicians are the bane of engineers lives Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
escholl Posted May 1, 2009 Share Posted May 1, 2009 [quote name='maxrossell' post='476899' date='May 1 2009, 12:15 PM']Heh - I just got an email from their keyboard player, who says that she can't really think of anything that she would like to sound like, but she wants her parts to sound full, crisp and clear. I'm kind of wondering what the alternative would be?[/quote] [url="http://www.audioease.com/Pages/Speakerphone/samples/index.php?module=image_gallery&a=v&f=Marshall%20Mini.jpg&sub=Other%20Gear"]this?[/url] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldGit Posted May 1, 2009 Share Posted May 1, 2009 [quote name='51m0n' post='476916' date='May 1 2009, 12:26 PM']I rest me case. Bloody stupid response. Course she does, even if she only says 'I've got my timbres sorted, but I want the pads to sit in the mix like they do in this track' would be better. Musicians are the bane of engineers lives [/quote] I am sure you know this but it's because recording is a totally different game to playing live. So different that it shoud be considered a whole different skill. Most people have never had to think about any of the things you are talking about . I've done sessions where none of this was considered or mentioned - well not to me anyway. How about giving bands some guidance when they book - back to the leaflet idea again, or a web page - say a list of "things you can do to mak ethe session go better, to end up with a better end result and to save time and money" That shoudl encourage them to read it Sad an FAQ with "What can I do to help the producer" as one of the questions .. Then they can think about bvs, effect chains, arrangements, etc before they turn up and at least you could say "did you RTFL?" (read the f'n leaflet) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xilddx Posted May 1, 2009 Share Posted May 1, 2009 [quote name='BigBeefChief' post='475800' date='Apr 30 2009, 10:48 AM']It's a shame none of the pissed punters you play to will give a sh*t though. Oh well, I'm sure it massaged your ego all the same.[/quote] Sorry, old egg, but those statements are terribly facile. Go back and edit them again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
51m0n Posted May 1, 2009 Share Posted May 1, 2009 [quote name='OldGit' post='476934' date='May 1 2009, 12:37 PM']I am sure you know this but it's because recording is a totally different game to playing live. So different that it shoud be considered a whole different skill. Most people have never had to think about any of the things you are talking about . I've done sessions where none of this was considered or mentioned - well not to me anyway. How about giving bands some guidance when they book - back to the leaflet idea again, or a web page - say a list of "things you can do to mak ethe session go better, to end up with a better end result and to save time and money" That shoudl encourage them to read it Sad an FAQ with "What can I do to help the producer" as one of the questions .. Then they can think about bvs, effect chains, arrangements, etc before they turn up and at least you could say "did you RTFL?" (read the f'n leaflet)[/quote] Yeah been there done that. ALways still do with a new buch in the studio. Try and tell them they would be best off going into the reheasal studio 4 times over the nexrt week to work it all out and tighten it up before recording, sort out tones, examples, mixes they like etc etc, bvs, overdubs, and lastly do you use a click? Usuually they get to the studio and still arent sure. So they slow the process down. Its fine if they have the budget, hopeless if they dont Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maxrossell Posted May 1, 2009 Author Share Posted May 1, 2009 [quote name='OldGit' post='476934' date='May 1 2009, 12:37 PM']How about giving bands some guidance when they book - back to the leaflet idea again, or a web page - say a list of "things you can do to mak ethe session go better, to end up with a better end result and to save time and money" That shoudl encourage them to read it Sad an FAQ with "What can I do to help the producer" as one of the questions .. Then they can think about bvs, effect chains, arrangements, etc before they turn up and at least you could say "did you RTFL?" (read the f'n leaflet)[/quote] I try wherever possible to go see the bands I'm working with playing live or in rehearsal a couple of times, and have at least one round-table discussion about what they want to achieve before we get there. Usually have a set of prepared questions for them to answer or think about, and I can answer ny of their questions too. Makes things run smoother on the day. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bumfrog Posted May 1, 2009 Share Posted May 1, 2009 (edited) [quote name='51m0n' post='476948' date='May 1 2009, 12:47 PM']Yeah been there done that. ALways still do with a new buch in the studio. Try and tell them they would be best off going into the reheasal studio 4 times over the nexrt week to work it all out and tighten it up before recording, sort out tones, examples, mixes they like etc etc, bvs, overdubs, and lastly do you use a click? Usuually they get to the studio and still arent sure. So they slow the process down. Its fine if they have the budget, hopeless if they dont[/quote] Please don't take this the wrong way, it's not having a go. But you do sound like an IT guy As in you know exactly what to do and what needs doing, but then you sound (apologies if i'm wrong on this bit) like you are getting frustrated/annoyed with those people who don't have the same knowledge as you. I understand that when you reach a certain level of knowledge as it were that people then tend to start getting anal about stuff, but what tends to happen when people get to that stage is they tend to forget that actually there's quite a lot of people out there who play just for the fun of it, and really aren't that bothered about having the best sound they can as it really doesn't make any difference to them. Yes, I do agree with the sentiments of this thread about how things sound a lot better if people know about eq'ing, using fx properly etc, but to a certain degree, I find that once you start getting obsessed with those things they can get in the way of actually enjoying the playing, if you get my drift. Also purely from a spectators point of view, one can start to let things like that get in the way of actually enjoying the music and performance. Yes, I would love that every gig that I go to have well balanced sound, nicely seperated instruments etc, but that (in my experience) is the exception rather than the rule - as a few people have pointed out, the drummer, I feel, is the benchmark for this. Most gigs I go to, the drummer is too loud, so the sound people can't get the vocals up high enough to be heard over everybody competing with the drummer without it feeding back. I guess all I'm trying to say is to those that get annoyed by these things, watch your heart rate dudes, it's not worth busting a gut over EDIT:- Just out of interest, if anybody has any guides or advice about all of this stuff for live playing, I'd be most appreciative of some guidance Edited May 1, 2009 by bumfrog Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xilddx Posted May 1, 2009 Share Posted May 1, 2009 [quote name='bumfrog' post='476971' date='May 1 2009, 01:11 PM']I guess all I'm trying to say is to those that get annoyed by these things, watch your heart rate dudes, it's not worth busting a gut over [/quote] That's fine if you're a bedroom bubinga botherer who plays in a hobby band or a little pub band with no ambition. Some of us on here play in pro and semi-pro bands that need to deliver value for the punters' cash and be professional about what we do. Contributing to your band with a sh*t sound is the same as dropping bum notes, playing out of time or tune, or turning up to a gig looking like a you slept in the road with a cheap didge and a dog with a scarf round its neck. Sorry, but unprofessional "don't care" attitudes are guaranteed to completely piss me off. You don't turn up to your day job with that attitude I hope, or maybe you work for local government .. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bumfrog Posted May 1, 2009 Share Posted May 1, 2009 [quote name='silddx' post='477004' date='May 1 2009, 01:42 PM']That's fine if you're a bedroom bubinga botherer who plays in a hobby band or a little pub band with no ambition. Some of us on here play in pro and semi-pro bands that need to deliver value for the punters' cash and be professional about what we do. Contributing to your band with a sh*t sound is the same as dropping bum notes, playing out of time or tune, or turning up to a gig looking like a you slept in the road with a cheap didge and a dog with a scarf round its neck. Sorry, but unprofessional "don't care" attitudes are guaranteed to completely piss me off. You don't turn up to your day job with that attitude I hope, or maybe you work for local government ..[/quote] Can you see me all the way from up there on your high horse? I was merely offering another view, and you come along and act all high and mighty, even when I'd asked for advice as well. Then you go on and try and link it in with my day job... wtf??? Shame, as most people on here seem very approachable and helpful, yourself with that post on the other hand just smack of ego.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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