Compact mixing desks - what are you using?

[Chienmortbb]

15 hours ago, LLOYDWT said:

I think in the long wrong the CQ20 would be a wiser buy than the UI24R; it's definitely, even with its teething issues, a more capable device; but I would understand choosing a more mature device rather than waiting for updates that may or may not come.

I think you are right, but groups on the main app is a big omission for me. It clearly can be done if it's on the Mobile app. I can live with my Ui16 for the time being. Re the UIs, they are a mature and seem stable, but there has been no firmware updates for some years. That suggests that development is minimal or non-existent.

[Chienmortbb]

On 05/09/2023 at 00:10, LLOYDWT said:

*UPDATE ON THE CQ-20B*

 

I've had a chance to play with the mixer properly now, and it's definitely a keeper, but there are a few niggles that'll hopefully get fixed with app updates and firmware updates.

 

The Good:

 

It's a great sounding mixer. The mic preamps sound excellent; to my ears, it's transparent and, by nature, more warm than clinical across the mics I tested and very easy to tweak (either using the full features of the mixer or the easy tweaking features. The FX are well implemented and useful (I've only really played with the reverbs, echoes and delays so far). It's easy to navigate between screens; features are always in the obvious place and the layout is accessible. It's designed to be quick and easy to use and it achieves both. Setting up channels, from gain to EQ to compression and gate to FX to outputs, is easy. It allows me to create a dynamic mix more akin to a larger feature-rich mixer with ease and speed. It feels quality; it's beautifully put together and the metal and textured plastic feel quality. My only worry would be a stray foot breaking the antenna, but this is  easily replaceable. I'm genuinely stunned by how complete a mixer this is for its price point, if you demoed this to me and asked me to guess what the RRP was, I'd be thinking in excess of £1,500.

 

The Bad:

 

There are no mute groups or sub groups. I'm very used to having a mute group for all my FX channels and another for all mics. I mute the FX between tracks, so there's no vocal FX when the band are interacting with the crowd. The mixer gives you two alternatives to this feature for FX that work great, if you're happy to adjust the way you mix: The first, from the FX page there is a "mute all FX button" which functions exactly like an FX mute, but it requires you to navigate away from the faders to enable it, which isn't ideal. The other alternative is to use one of three assignable "soft buttons." These are assignable to mute single channels, the aux outs, and the master stereo out. It can be assigned to mute individual FX or all 4 active FX. The soft buttons are accessible from every screen, so as far as FX goes this functions exactly as a mute group would. The only issue with this solution is the soft buttons don't have labels, so you need to remember what functions and channels you have assigned to each (and you need to communicate this with anybody else using the mixer). Unfortunately, aside from FX and stereo outputs, you can't assign a soft button to mute multiple channels (in or out), so there's no way to mirror the functionality of any other mute group.

 

The monitor app that's due out this month looks to allow you to mix from assignable sub groups, so hopefully the sub group feature will be introduced into the mixing app at the same time. Assignable and labelable mutable sub groups are my biggest and most immediate desired feature.

 

Channel names are limited to six characters. This isn't the end of the world, but it's required me to shorten some of the channel names I've historically used.

 

You can lock an output fader to the right-hand side of the app, but this is replaced by the highlighted fader on the config screen (all other screens show the locked fader). I quickly got used to locking the Master LR to this slot whilst cycling screens; it's very easy to forget that you're not on the  Master fader from the config screen and end up adjusting the output level to the wrong channel.

 

The Ugly:

 

When the app is minimised or the iPad screen is off (I'm using an iPad Air M1 principally, but have had the same issue on other devices) the app quickly disconnects from the mixer (the WiFi connection remains), and you're required to reconnect to the mixer before you can resume mixing. It only takes a few seconds to reconnect, but it's frustrating and could cause real frustration during a gig when you're trying to trouble shoot an issue quickly. I've never experienced this drop using any other mixing apps, so hopefully it's resolvable. 

 

Summary:

 

It very much feels like it's been designed from the ground up to serve a very particular type of use case by people who are genuinely passionate. I know there are people lamenting the lack of Dante or Ultranet, among other features, but it is designed as a self-contained *small* unit and I honestly think that both features would've added cost and complexity that would make the mixer a less attractive prospect to the target audience. If I want Dante or Ultranet, I'll use a bigger mixer.

 

I can get the sounds I want from this mixer; it's not a home run for Allen & Heath, yet. But it's a very capable unit that has addressed many of the short comings of similar products. The hardware appears faultless, and I imagine over the coming weeks and months the software in the CQ mixers is going to get better and better, and I can't wait.

 

Right now, it's good enough, even with the above issues, to render my other small mixers redundant.

I downloaded the Windows app and although it is supposedly an upgrade, still no groups or mute groups that I can find. Have you heard anything about these features being added? I am very tempted as I was going to a Soundcraft Ui24 for the recording facilities and also the matrix facility on the Ui24 is interesting. As you can see, I am holding off for now.

 

[basstone]

I'm a big fan of the Soundcraft Ui series. For most live gigs I use the Ui16 which has 12 mic inputs and 6 aux outputs, which is plenty for the 7 piece band (2 vocals, 2 keys, bass, guitar, 3 horns, 2 drum mics).  Effectively the mixer is the stage box and all the HMI is on any browser (up to 6 at once). Either hard wired Ethernet or wi-fi. I tend to use a laptop hardwired in at the side of the stage and an iPad for general mixing. The singers can have full control over their in ear monitor mixes on their phones as well. The mixer has onboard reverb, delay, compression and DBX feedback suppression automatic notch filters on the outputs.

 

The Ui24 is a whole different beast. I use it as a 24 channel audio interface in the studio and also live. The extensive patching and matrix options make it very versatile.

 

All the Ui models get flack for the perceived weakness of the built in wi-fi hotspot but this is easily addressed by either scanning the venue to find a relatively clear wi-fi channel, using ethernet or an external router for the wi-fi.

[Chienmortbb]

21 minutes ago, basstone said:

I'm a big fan of the Soundcraft Ui series. For most live gigs I use the Ui16 which has 12 mic inputs and 6 aux outputs, which is plenty for the 7 piece band (2 vocals, 2 keys, bass, guitar, 3 horns, 2 drum mics).  Effectively the mixer is the stage box and all the HMI is on any browser (up to 6 at once). Either hard wired Ethernet or wi-fi. I tend to use a laptop hardwired in at the side of the stage and an iPad for general mixing. The singers can have full control over their in ear monitor mixes on their phones as well. The mixer has onboard reverb, delay, compression and DBX feedback suppression automatic notch filters on the outputs.

 

The Ui24 is a whole different beast. I use it as a 24 channel audio interface in the studio and also live. The extensive patching and matrix options make it very versatile.

 

All the Ui models get flack for the perceived weakness of the built in wi-fi hotspot but this is easily addressed by either scanning the venue to find a relatively clear wi-fi channel, using ethernet or an external router for the wi-fi.

I have the Ui16, The mic preamps are supposed to be inferior to the UI 24, and I like the idea of recording gigs as single tracks, It looks like the UI24 is what I need, but the lack of updates from Soundcraft/Harmon/Samsung worry me. A &  H seems to be racing ahead, but as I said before, the mute groups and groups are standard on other mixers in this class.

[basstone]

Just now, Chienmortbb said:

I have the Ui16, The mic preamps are supposed to be inferior to the UI 24, and I like the idea of recording gigs as single tracks, It looks like the UI24 is what I need, but the lack of updates from Soundcraft/Harmon/Samsung worry me. A &  H seems to be racing ahead, but as I said before, the mute groups and groups are standard on other mixers in this class.

I agree that Samsung seem to have no interest in developing the Ui series, in fact the development team have all moved on. Having said that the functionality it already has is well worth the money. They are also so compact for live use. As time passes I'm sure that the availability of hardware replacements for repair will be the death of the Ui series which will be a shame. Fingers crossed I have had no issues with either my Ui16 or 24. The Ui24 is incredible value for money and using the ASIO USB interface to the PC (I use Reaper) was easy to set up and configure. That's not why I originally bought the mixer but is now its primary use! For live use the ability to record the individual tracks is great either with a suitable fast USB memory stick or SSD. You just need to use a powered hub because the internal PSU wont power  much on the USB sockets and can cause the mixer to lock up or reboot, so I'm told.

 

A & H always seem to produce good gear. I've used their Qu desks, although they are considerably more expensive, especially if you factor in the remote stage box. The A & H desks are also fussy about what USB drive you use and they need to be dedicated and formatted to use with the desk.

 

 

[Chienmortbb]

I had a response from A&H
 
"The CQ does not have groups (presuming mix groups) by design, adding them would require a fundamental redesign, which we have no plans for.
There are also no current plans to add mute groups to the CQ series, though there have been suggestions for mute groups in the digital community.
(https://community.allen-heath.com/forums/topic/please-add-mute-groups-feature)
This is where we look to when prioritising potential new features, to try and ensure we're satisfying as many users as possible with any new release, and is the best place to add your voice if this is something that you'd really need in the CQ."

 

A bit disappointing really, they really should have looked at what was on the competition when designing these. So now I need to look at the pros and cons of the CQ20 v the Ui24r and whether I would miss groups or mix groups as A&H call them.

[LLOYDWT]

13 hours ago, Chienmortbb said:

"The CQ does not have groups (presuming mix groups) by design, adding them would require a fundamental redesign, which we have no plans for."

 

They exist in the monitoring app, so the functionality is already there. It's such a daft response too, even if it were true; "we didn't include this useful feature that could be easily achieved on the existing hardware with minor software changes and that has no down sides by design"???

 

I'm used to not having the mute groups now as I have the soft keys setup for what I used most frequently on my MR18. It's still a great mixer, but these feel like  missteps from A&H.

[dave_bass5]

Not sure if it’s already been mentioned here, but Mixing station V2 beta now supports the CQ mixers. There might be more functionality there. 

[Chienmortbb]

On 12/10/2023 at 22:52, LLOYDWT said:

 

They exist in the monitoring app, so the functionality is already there. It's such a daft response too, even if it were true; "we didn't include this useful feature that could be easily achieved on the existing hardware with minor software changes and that has no down sides by design"???

 

I'm used to not having the mute groups now as I have the soft keys setup for what I used most frequently on my MR18. It's still a great mixer, but these feel like  missteps from A&H.

How are you finding the CQ20 after a few months?

[Chienmortbb]

On 13/10/2023 at 12:53, dave_bass5 said:

Not sure if it’s already been mentioned here, but Mixing station V2 beta now supports the CQ mixers. There might be more functionality there. 

It is now fully supported in the latest version.

[LLOYDWT]

5 hours ago, Chienmortbb said:

How are you finding the CQ20 after a few months?

 

It's been statically installed in my practice room for the last couple of months, so I haven't really been fully utilising it (the only gigs I've run sound on have used a Midas M32). I'm still really enjoying using it; the interface and navigation within the app have grown on me with more use.

 

I'm enjoying the quick presets more than I thought I would; without those, I think I'd be dialing in very similar settings to those I would on any mixer, but this allows me to cycle through some contrasting setups quickly, and I often arrive at a sound distinct from what I'd normally be looking for and that I'm really satisfied with. I've been lamenting the loss of my mute/sub groups less than I thought I would, but I imagine if I were micing a full drum kit, I'd miss that feature more. I think I'll have to check out Mixing Station to see what the mixing experience is like in that; but I'd miss some of the quick setup functions if I gave up on the CQ app completely. Perhaps I could dial the mixer in using the CQ app, and then do the levels in the Mixing Station app (this is probably ridiculous).

 

I'm doing a major software rollout at work over the next few weeks, so music is going to be quiet for me until late December/early January; I've got a few coffee shop/wine bar gigs in early 2024 where I plan on using this with my FBT Vertus CLA PA, and I'm more excited about it than I should be.

 

I've yet to persuade singers and guitarists to claim their own monitor mixes with the CQ4YOU app yet; which is disappointing. Not a failing of the mixer or the app, just Luddites shirking the job; they'll get there.

 

The tech-savvier musicians I've shared it with have found it straightforward. The learning curve is less steep than the Midas, and the results are usually better. It was an indulgent purchase, but I don't regret it. 

[Chienmortbb]

10 hours ago, LLOYDWT said:

I've been lamenting the loss of my mute/sub groups less than I thought I would, but I imagine if I were micing a full drum kit, I'd miss that feature more

I am coming to the same conclusion, although I have not yet bought the CQ20T. In reality, I probably use the group feature once or twice a year, so it's not the big deal I originally told myself it was. Apparently you can use DCAs (Digitally Controlled Amplifiers) on the Mixing Station, but I barely know the software and have not found it yet. It may be my bias against learning new software, but I do not really like the look of Mixing Station.

 

The consensus does seem to be that the CQ is a step-up in sound quality from both the Behringer/Midas offerings and the Soundcraft UI series, although the Midas and Soundcraft UI24r are supposed to have better mic preamps than the Behringers or the UI12/16s. It has some nice features that the others do not, but there are functional improvements that A&H can make that in future. The original Soundcraft UI firmware did not include many features that we now enjoy, and the current firmware was 3 years after launch.

 

One final thing, how usable is the WiFi?

10 hours ago, LLOYDWT said:

I've yet to persuade singers and guitarists to claim their own monitor mixes with the CQ4YOU app yet; which is disappointing. Not a failing of the mixer or the app, just Luddites shirking the job; they'll get there.

Snap, none of mine are interested in Soundcraft's MoreMe app for personal monitoring.

 

Thanks for taking the time to explain and good luck with the rollout.

[LLOYDWT]

1 hour ago, Chienmortbb said:

One final thing, how usable is the WiFi?

The WiFi has been faultless and was worth the cost of entry alone. I really don't miss having to use a router in addition to the mixer.

 

Mixing Station does not look as user-friendly, or as "aesthetic," as the native CQ app, and, aside from some missing features, and the disconnecting when idle, the CQ app is the best tablet mixing experience I've ever had.

[Chienmortbb]

On 16/11/2023 at 09:53, LLOYDWT said:

The WiFi has been faultless and was worth the cost of entry alone. I really don't miss having to use a router in addition to the mixer.

 

Mixing Station does not look as user-friendly, or as "aesthetic," as the native CQ app, and, aside from some missing features, and the disconnecting when idle, the CQ app is the best tablet mixing experience I've ever had.

Thanks.

[subsidey]

I use an Allen and Heath SQ5. Really nice small footprint in a powerful mixer.

 

[Al Krow]

Just recently come across these: Kenable Metal 3.5mm Stereo Socket to 6.35mm Mono Jack Plug Adapter

 

We don't particularly pan our instruments, so mono rather than stereo output works fine. This little adaptor allows us to plug in a 3.5mm TRS headphone jack into the desk and get output to both cans, rather than just the left side.

Also means that we now have 5 IEM outputs from a relatively modest analogue desk  - 4 mono and one stereo comprising: 2 aux, 2 group and the headphone, which is plenty for my covers bands. 

[EBS_freak]

3 hours ago, Al Krow said:

Just recently come across these: Kenable Metal 3.5mm Stereo Socket to 6.35mm Mono Jack Plug Adapter

 

We don't particularly pan our instruments, so mono rather than stereo output works fine. This little adaptor allows us to plug in a 3.5mm TRS headphone jack into the desk and get output to both cans, rather than just the left side.

Also means that we now have 5 IEM outputs from a relatively modest analogue desk  - 4 mono and one stereo comprising: 2 aux, 2 group and the headphone, which is plenty for my covers bands. 

Are you running IEMs direct off the auxes?

 

[Al Krow]

5 hours ago, EBS_freak said:

Are you running IEMs direct off the auxes?

 

 

Mono auxes for wireless IEMS - these can give us tailored monitoring e.g. I have bass boosted on mine and singer focuses on vox, her keys and guitar.

Headphone and group outs for wired IEMs

 

All of them have separate volume controls on the desk: Soundcraft Signature 12 (MTK)

Edited February 15 by Al Krow

[Chienmortbb]

On 16/11/2023 at 09:53, LLOYDWT said:

The WiFi has been faultless and was worth the cost of entry alone. I really don't miss having to use a router in addition to the mixer.

 

Mixing Station does not look as user-friendly, or as "aesthetic," as the native CQ app, and, aside from some missing features, and the disconnecting when idle, the CQ app is the best tablet mixing experience I've ever had.

I did eventually buy the CQ20. The WiFi is so much better than any of the mixers I have used, although the M18 is missing from those I have tried. What has impressed me is the noise....there is none that I can hear. It is also much smaller than I imagined and a better form factor than the  Soundcraft or Behringer/Midas competitors.  I also love the chorus for bass guitar, in fact all the effects seem pretty good. I also love the Double Tracker and plan to use it on tomorrow's gig. I have not needed the groups/DCA yet.

Edited March 22 by Chienmortbb

[Al Krow]

1 hour ago, Chienmortbb said:

I did eventually but the CQ20. The WiFi is so much better than any of the mixers I have used, although the M18 is missing from those I have tried. What has impressed me is the noise....there is none that I can here. It is also much smaller than I imagined and a better form factor than the  Soundcraft or Behringer/Midas competitors.  I also love the chorus for bass guitar, in fact all the effects seem pretty good. I also love the Double Tracker and plan to use it on tomorrow's gig. I have not needed the groups/DCA yet.

 

That's another thumbs up for this new A&H range and a cumulative GAS leak into our collective consciousness! 

Being digital can you can tailor whatever fx you want to each channel? Unlike a lot of analogue desks where the fx choice is global and either apply it or not is then the only option, so ends up being reverb for vox and off for the rest of the band.

Please talk us through the key benefits of the Double Tracker for your set up?

[LLOYDWT]

1 hour ago, Al Krow said:

 

That's another thumbs up for this new A&H range and a cumulative GAS leak into our collective consciousness! 

Being digital can you can tailor whatever fx you want to each channel? Unlike a lot of analogue desks where the fx choice is global and either apply it or not is then the only option, so ends up being reverb for vox and off for the rest of the band.

Please talk us through the key benefits of the Double Tracker for your set up?

 

There are four FX blocks, so you can choose up to four effects to use at any one time. All channels can be routed to all FX, much like you'd route a channel to a bus, and FX can be routed to other FX too.

 

So by default, if you put say a reverb on a vocal mic, you're sending a clean vocal signal and an affected vocal signal to FoH and you can make changes by riding the two levels, sending more dry signal to the FX channel, or changing the quality of the reverb from the FX sub-menu.

 

You can also change the FX from "Shared" to "Inserted" which then requires you to specify a single channel (or stereo pair) to receive that effect, which is then not available on any other channel; but that then means you lose the dry signal, and you control your affected output via that channel's fader.

 

It's more intuitive than it sounds and allows you to control the FX any way you can imagine with a lot of detail. The presets are really good and I've been able to dial in exactly what I've wanted within seconds of hitting the FX sub-menu.

 

I did an acoustic duo gig last month, and used the double tracker on the guitar which added some missing depth; I've not used it on vocals yet, as I don't think it's an effect I want on all the time, and my hands are busy playing.

[Phil Starr]

On 21/03/2024 at 16:36, Chienmortbb said:

I did eventually buy the CQ20. The WiFi is so much better than any of the mixers I have used, although the M18 is missing from those

 

It's a bit sad that RCF are no longer making the M18. I'd buy another tomorrow if mine ever went down. We've recently switched to a Behringer and set up time is much longer as the control software is so much less intuitive. Our guitarist runs the mixer whereas I ran the M18 which is so simple to use. There have been a few mutterings from the rest of the band about going back to my mixer as it 'sounds better' if it's true that is down to simplicity because said guitarist is every bit as competent as I am, probably more so. Having it's own reliable wi fi is a blessing too, the M18 was designed from the start as a live mixer for small bands and it shows. Let's hope it's reliable as I won't be able to replace it. I guess the CQ20 would be my choice of the current crop of mixers.