Choosing Bass Mic

[Faithless]

So, I'm playing in a new project (pop artist..), and producer, as he wants my amp to be [i]mic'ed[/i], asked me to choose one as fast, as possible (gig waiting other weekend!)...


I'll be (probably) [i]mic'ing [/i]my Trace Elliott Commando 15 (1x15 speaker), if it matters, of course.. And, well, probably, other amps, so, I need versalite mic, but, well, all in all, I think, it should be a [i]bass [/i]mic..

Oh, I was doing records with [i]bass drum[/i] mic, and I enjoyed the result pretty much, so, if you know any decent ones, they'd be probably also welcome to suggest..


The bad thing is, that producer didn't tell me the exact [i]budget[/i], when I asked, but, as I suppose, it shouldn't be a [i]cheapo [/i]thingy..

Anyway, for now, let's talk about [b]150-350 pounds[/b].. (I know, it's quite wide price range, but, I'll let you know, if'll get the exact possible budget from him)

So, I'm waiting your suggestions, guys!

P.S. Mods, hope, this is in the right section, as it has something to do with amps, anyway

Cheers,
Faith.

Edited March 24, 2009 by Faithless

[crez5150]

Have a look at this.... - [url="http://www.sennheiser.co.uk/uk/icm.nsf/root/500797"]Sennheiser[/url]

[Stewart]

I'm very fond of Audix D4 and D6...

[PapillonIrl]

Shure SM7b is great for this. I would look for a used one. Doubles as a great vocal mic, amongst other things. Many kick drum mics are scooped around 300-600hz and are unsuitable for bass cab micing.

[51m0n]

[quote name='Stewart' post='443790' date='Mar 24 2009, 02:12 PM']I'm very fond of Audix D4 and D6...[/quote]

+1 heard many good things

Also though do yourself a favour and check out the Heil PR40 - its a cracking mic!!!!

Forget that its a 'broadcast' mic - so is an electrovoice RE20 and thats considered by many to be the 'king' of bass mics.

I would recommend avoiding a kick drum mic.

Simply because it will tend to eq your sound, and thats not always what you want, overlaying an overtly kick drum orientated fixed eq over the sound of a bass guitar doesn't work for me, esp if the kick was recorded with the same mic!

Edited March 24, 2009 by 51m0n

[Marky L]

In a recording situation, what does mic'ing your cab up actually give you?

I have it in mind to do this as well as DIing when we do some demos in the next few weeks. My head tells me it will give me a better 'live' sound.

[51m0n]

[quote name='Marky L' post='443960' date='Mar 24 2009, 04:59 PM']In a recording situation, what does mic'ing your cab up actually give you?

I have it in mind to do this as well as DIing when we do some demos in the next few weeks. My head tells me it will give me a better 'live' sound.[/quote]

Well the sound of everything after your DI - so preamp & amp & cab at a minimum.

A lot of people like that, esp mixed back in to the DI'ed tone.

Personally I almost always end up using nearly all DI'ed tone anyway, but if you like driving the cahoonies of a tube poweramp into an 8x10 you have to mic up the thunder.....

One of the nicest bass sounds I ever got was using 2 mics on a cab (1 was 3 times further away than the other - all in a very nice room) and a DI, then mixing them all together down to tape (yup that long a go!). It wasnt particularly growly or whatever, but it really worked, I used a pair of sennheiser MD421 for that - lovely mics but quite dear.

Its very important to get the mic and DI in phase when trying this or you can do a lot more damage than good!

Edited March 24, 2009 by 51m0n

[Marky L]

[quote name='51m0n' post='443977' date='Mar 24 2009, 05:12 PM']... but if you like driving the cahoonies of a tube poweramp into an 8x10 you have to mic up the thunder.....[/quote]

Oh yeah!!!!

[rodl2005]

+1 on the EV RE20 & I've also gotten great results w/ a simple ol' Shure SM57

[Noisyjon]

I would go for a Shure Beta 52 kick drum mic and the D.I. option. I've heard stunning results on an Ashdown 8x10 cab in a gig situation.

JTB

edit: GAK and Andertons do them for £165.

Edited March 26, 2009 by jonthebass

[51m0n]

Again I'd point out that its a sound engineering no no to eq the bass and kick drum the same. They just compete with each other in the mix if you do. Therefore using a 'standard' kick drum mic (AKGD112 or whatever) is often a bad plan, they have serious amounts of built in eq, usually that doesn't favour bass in a mix (they suck out a tonne of mid around 300-400Hz and boost around 80Hz and as high as 2KHz).

You are in fact often better off in the mix if you use some thing as simple as an SM57 since it doesn't have that 80Hz boost and heavy low mid cut.

The reason the Senn MD421, EV RE20 and Heil PR40 are so good is that they have very good extension into the low frequencies without huge peaks and troughs. A lot of big brass mics work fine as well (Audix D4 is pretty good too I think).

Put it another way, the engineer will likely have to eq the heck out of a bass sound captured with a kick drum mic to make it really work [i]in a mix[/i] where as with the aforementioned mics (and even an sm57) they wont. Doesnt matter what you think the less eq you have to use to capture a sound the way you need it the better.

Edited March 26, 2009 by 51m0n

[dangerboy]

Last time I was in a studio most of my sound came from an EV RE20. And it sounded GOOD.

[PapillonIrl]

[quote name='51m0n' post='445713' date='Mar 26 2009, 09:38 AM']Again I'd point out that its a sound engineering no no to eq the bass and kick drum the same. They just compete with each other in the mix if you do. Therefore using a 'standard' kick drum mic (AKGD112 or whatever) is often a bad plan, they have serious amounts of built in eq, usually that doesn't favour bass in a mix (they suck out a tonne of mid around 300-400Hz and boost around 80Hz and as high as 2KHz).

You are in fact often better off in the mix if you use some thing as simple as an SM57 since it doesn't have that 80Hz boost and heavy low mid cut.

The reason the Senn MD421, EV RE20 and Heil PR40 are so good is that they have very good extension into the low frequencies without huge peaks and troughs. A lot of big brass mics work fine as well (Audix D4 is pretty good too I think).

Put it another way, the engineer will likely have to eq the heck out of a bass sound captured with a kick drum mic to make it really work [i]in a mix[/i] where as with the aforementioned mics (and even an sm57) they wont. Doesnt matter what you think the less eq you have to use to capture a sound the way you need it the better.[/quote]

+1

Would add the SM7 to the list though. Good dynamic mics are your friend in less than stellar rooms. Would like to try the RE20, as I struggle with proximity effect sometimes when getting as close as I need to reduce kit bleed with the SM7. The RE20 has some sort of voodoo to counteract proximity effect I believe ?

[High score]

[quote name='Faithless' post='443695' date='Mar 24 2009, 12:52 PM']So, I'm playing in a new project (pop artist..), and producer, as he wants my amp to be [i]mic'ed[/i], asked me to choose one as fast, as possible (gig waiting other weekend!)...


I'll be (probably) [i]mic'ing [/i]my Trace Elliott Commando 15 (1x15 speaker), if it matters, of course.. And, well, probably, other amps, so, I need versalite mic, but, well, all in all, I think, it should be a [i]bass [/i]mic..

Oh, I was doing records with [i]bass drum[/i] mic, and I enjoyed the result pretty much, so, if you know any decent ones, they'd be probably also welcome to suggest..


The bad thing is, that producer didn't tell me the exact [i]budget[/i], when I asked, but, as I suppose, it shouldn't be a [i]cheapo [/i]thingy..

Anyway, for now, let's talk about [b]150-350 pounds[/b].. (I know, it's quite wide price range, but, I'll let you know, if'll get the exact possible budget from him)

So, I'm waiting your suggestions, guys!

P.S. Mods, hope, this is in the right section, as it has something to do with amps, anyway

Cheers,
Faith.[/quote]

With my sales mans hat on, see my thread under Mackie PA for sale. I have three SM57 mics for sale at £50 each +pp (new price around £92). They are in as new condition and I think I still have the original packaging.

For what it is worth, I have done the sound for 100s of live gigs and used both SM57 and kick mics for bass. It is true the kick mics can be slightly scooped but any sound man worth his salt will effectively use the desk EQ to differentiate the respective instruments in the mix. In addition, and channels permitting, he will use both DI and live mic so that you will be able to maximise the sound of your effects. For a mic that will just about cover everything, SM57 is an industry standard and takes a lot of beating to be honest.

Edited March 26, 2009 by High score

[Faithless]

This is great, guys, keep it comin'!


Cheers,
Faith.

[alexclaber]

Large diaphragm condensers work great on bass amps in the studio, I've got some fantastic sounds with mine when I was running a ton of effects through my Acme rig. Live I think you'll find an SM57 goes plenty low enough and high enough and is close enough to flat to accurately capture the relatively limited bandwidth of your TE combo. Some of the more expensive options go quite a lot lower but what's the point if your amp isn't producing any sound down there?

Alex

[PapillonIrl]

[quote name='alexclaber' post='446787' date='Mar 27 2009, 12:33 AM']Large diaphragm condensers work great on bass amps in the studio, I've got some fantastic sounds with mine when I was running a ton of effects through my Acme rig. Live I think you'll find an SM57 goes plenty low enough and high enough and is close enough to flat to accurately capture the relatively limited bandwidth of your TE combo. Some of the more expensive options go quite a lot lower but what's the point if your amp isn't producing any sound down there?

Alex[/quote]

Agreed...I have got some of my best cab sounds from tube condenser vocal mics. If you also need a mic for tracking vocals, this might be a good direction. You probably won't be able to use a mic like this on stage though, if that matters.

[Clockworkwar]

SM57 job done

[escholl]

I've had good results mixing an old Shure 545SD (which is basically a SM57, only older -- not quite the same as the new 545SD's) with a DI -- but I think when I can afford it, I'll be getting one of those Heil PR40's mentioned earlier, they look incredible!

[51m0n]

[quote name='PapillonIrl' post='445735' date='Mar 26 2009, 10:04 AM']+1

Would add the SM7 to the list though. Good dynamic mics are your friend in less than stellar rooms. Would like to try the RE20, as I struggle with proximity effect sometimes when getting as close as I need to reduce kit bleed with the SM7. The RE20 has some sort of voodoo to counteract proximity effect I believe ?[/quote]

The RE20 has a long 'neck' with the diaphragm way down the end of it, so you physically cant get the diaphragm close enough to the source to get appreciable proximity effect.

The PR40 has more proximity effect as it doesn't have the internal distance between the end of the body and the diaphragm, however the off axis rejection from them seems unreal - almost too good to be true, so you should be able to put the mic in a couple of inches further back from your rig at gig volumes with no bleed issue at all.

I forgot the SM7 - thats a nice mic too!!

When I get the cash I will be getting a PR40 though, they are just ridiculous - partly due to having neo magnets in there I'm sure, but I dont really care why

[51m0n]

[quote name='High score' post='446570' date='Mar 26 2009, 10:09 PM']With my sales mans hat on, see my thread under Mackie PA for sale. I have three SM57 mics for sale at £50 each +pp (new price around £92). They are in as new condition and I think I still have the original packaging.

For what it is worth, I have done the sound for 100s of live gigs and used both SM57 and kick mics for bass. It is true the kick mics can be slightly scooped but any sound man worth his salt will effectively use the desk EQ to differentiate the respective instruments in the mix. In addition, and channels permitting, he will use both DI and live mic so that you will be able to maximise the sound of your effects. For a mic that will just about cover everything, SM57 is an industry standard and takes a lot of beating to be honest.[/quote]

Yeah I've done a tonne of sound and recording, and eq cannot really replace what something else has taken away. and thoise kick mics can have very steep notches taken out of them, really.

The sm57 is a really good solution on the cheap, and gives way better results than a D112 IMO, then again so does a Senn E835 and the cost about 50p (not really). I use an 835 as my 'I've run out of anything else' mic, it has literally never let me down....

[High score]

[quote name='51m0n' post='447136' date='Mar 27 2009, 12:32 PM']Yeah I've done a tonne of sound and recording, and eq cannot really replace what something else has taken away. and thoise kick mics can have very steep notches taken out of them, really.

The sm57 is a really good solution on the cheap, and gives way better results than a D112 IMO, then again so does a Senn E835 and the cost about 50p (not really). I use an 835 as my 'I've run out of anything else' mic, it has literally never let me down....[/quote]

Yep you are right - no EQ can add what has never been picked up. My experience has been mainly live sound where there is only one take !!

The difference between say a PG52 kick mic and an SM57 can be quite marked. The SM57 is incredibly neutral in it's response curve and doesn't colour the sound imo and only falls away below 150hz. The kick mic has a dramatically improved response curve at the low end. I have never used kick mics with notch type drops in response although they may drop 2-3 db in the mids picking up again to catch any transients. This is the reason I would normally try and use both mic and DI for a bass in a live setting - especially if the bass is using effects.

Lastly, thanks for your input, I'm always interested in the experiences of others who may have explored different gear....

[51m0n]

[quote name='High score' post='447245' date='Mar 27 2009, 01:58 PM']Yep you are right - no EQ can add what has never been picked up. My experience has been mainly live sound where there is only one take !!

The difference between say a PG52 kick mic and an SM57 can be quite marked. The SM57 is incredibly neutral in it's response curve and doesn't colour the sound imo and only falls away below 150hz. The kick mic has a dramatically improved response curve at the low end. I have never used kick mics with notch type drops in response although they may drop 2-3 db in the mids picking up again to catch any transients. This is the reason I would normally try and use both mic and DI for a bass in a live setting - especially if the bass is using effects.

Lastly, thanks for your input, I'm always interested in the experiences of others who may have explored different gear....[/quote]


Funnily enough in a live situation I've sometimes found (in a particularly boomy room) that the drop off below 150Hz on an SM57 can really clear things up (better than using the DI). But its a rare thing to have the time to play about with different mics on bass amps lets face it!

If I have the power else where (decent desk eq, and a compressor) I'd rather use the most neutral mics/DI I can, on the other hand using what you've got well is where the real artistry lies IMO.

[High score]

[quote name='51m0n' post='447262' date='Mar 27 2009, 02:07 PM']Funnily enough in a live situation I've sometimes found (in a particularly boomy room) that the drop off below 150Hz on an SM57 can really clear things up (better than using the DI). But its a rare thing to have the time to play about with different mics on bass amps lets face it!

If I have the power else where (decent desk eq, and a compressor) I'd rather use the most neutral mics/DI I can, on the other hand using what you've got well is where the real artistry lies IMO.[/quote]

Totally agree, unless the band is well known to you, trying out unknown gear in a live setting or having the time to do it is a no no. In addition, the ability to work to the best effect in an unknown venue is often the difference between a sharp gig and a mediocre one. At the end of the day you really must know intimately what your kit will peform like - musos are not very sympathetic if you get it wrong

Yep, hard surfaces, little to absorb sound creating both ''boom'' as well as a standing wave ie very low frequency feedback. Sounds an odd thing for some bass players to read but it is not the first time I will have used a compressor and the low frequency pad (80hz) on the bass channel to clean up their sound a little.

How do you find using two desk channels on an instrument? I tend to do it if there are extensive effects otherwise DI out just to limit the mics on the stage.

Lastly, always used to like dealing with a player who actually knew what the desk did and could explain what sound they wanted - made life a lot simpler. Hard to explain to some players that the easiest way to improve their sound is to cut on the EQ and not add to it. Anyway, where would the fun be if it ws easy

[51m0n]

[quote name='High score' post='447370' date='Mar 27 2009, 03:19 PM']Totally agree, unless the band is well known to you, trying out unknown gear in a live setting or having the time to do it is a no no. In addition, the ability to work to the best effect in an unknown venue is often the difference between a sharp gig and a mediocre one. At the end of the day you really must know intimately what your kit will peform like - musos are not very sympathetic if you get it wrong

Yep, hard surfaces, little to absorb sound creating both ''boom'' as well as a standing wave ie very low frequency feedback. Sounds an odd thing for some bass players to read but it is not the first time I will have used a compressor and the low frequency pad (80hz) on the bass channel to clean up their sound a little.

How do you find using two desk channels on an instrument? I tend to do it if there are extensive effects otherwise DI out just to limit the mics on the stage.

Lastly, always used to like dealing with a player who actually knew what the desk did and could explain what sound they wanted - made life a lot simpler. Hard to explain to some players that the easiest way to improve their sound is to cut on the EQ and not add to it. Anyway, where would the fun be if it ws easy [/quote]

2 channels -> 1 group if at all possible

Someone who knows what you're doing (I mean really) and understands the terminology is really nice to work with.

Having the time to ask a bassist about his rig/tone makes their day - every time - and makes mine better cos I have an idea of the direction they are going for....