Rollin Thunder Posted February 28, 2021 Share Posted February 28, 2021 (edited) Don't know of there is a dedicated HiFi section anywhere. but could not find anything. After some advice. Just purchased both a new Denon Hifi and direct drift Audio Technica Turntable. Both sound amazing in my 4m x 4m living room with a noice set of Wharfdale Diamond speakers. Only issue is switching from streaming, CD, DAB to Phono Vinyl is a massive drop in volume and I have to crank the volume up a fare bit (turntable set to Line which is loudest). There is no drop in sound quality at all, no extra hum or buzz or anything, just have to boost volume from around 20-24 to 30-36 (it goes to 50) maxed out) I do like it loud but not stupidly and if I do there is plenty in the tank hit 40 on volume and its very load. So does anyone know how to boost the signal from the turntable , just to get it more unity with other settings, can you get boosters for this type of thing, or just by some better quality RCA cables would that make a difference over the std ones that came with the Turntable. Any advice would be appreciated. Edited February 28, 2021 by Rollin Thunder Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rollin Thunder Posted February 28, 2021 Author Share Posted February 28, 2021 Think the what I am looking for is preamp, anyone now what's good. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KiOgon Posted February 28, 2021 Share Posted February 28, 2021 (edited) 'What's good'! https://www.audioaffair.co.uk/linn-uphorik What's affordable? A different story, but should be plenty of pre's around. Edit: https://www.whathifi.com/best-buys/accessories/best-phono-preamps Edited February 28, 2021 by KiOgon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan Dare Posted February 28, 2021 Share Posted February 28, 2021 Cables can be the hi-fi world's equivalent to tone woods in solid electric instruments. You can pay a fortune for them and although it can be argued they can improve sound quality, you won't get a higher signal level by swapping them out. As a cartridge produces such a tiny signal, it needs to be boosted by a phono preamp (which is what you have in your amplifier). The preamp also corrects the frequency balance - low frequencies are minimised when cutting records in order to reduce the amount the record grooves modulate. If they weren't, the stylus wouldn't be able to track them (look up RIAA equalisation for an explanation). You may be able to get a phono preamp that produces higher output than the one built into your amp (you would have to run it into a line, not the phono input). Not sure about that - you'll need to do some research - but you may have to accept that vinyl is not going to produce as high an output as streaming, CDs or DAB. Stand alone phono pre's can be pretty expensive. Have a look online for reviews and recommendations in places such as - Best phono preamps 2021: budget to high-end | What Hi-Fi? and ask a few decent shops for advice (keeping your b/s and snake oil filters firmly engaged). Have fun. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rollin Thunder Posted February 28, 2021 Author Share Posted February 28, 2021 8 minutes ago, KiOgon said: 'What's good'! https://www.audioaffair.co.uk/linn-uphorik What's affordable? A different story, but should be plenty of pre's around. ouch, was looking at something £50-£80 range. but did find this, which has solid enough reviews. https://www.audioaffair.co.uk/pro-ject-phono-box-mm-phono-stage 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan Dare Posted February 28, 2021 Share Posted February 28, 2021 Just now, Rollin Thunder said: but did find this, which has solid enough reviews. https://www.audioaffair.co.uk/pro-ject-phono-box-mm-phono-stage That's been a standard budget recommendation for some years. See my previous post about levels, though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slojo Posted February 28, 2021 Share Posted February 28, 2021 Yes, I see your issue. line level output from the turntable is only 240mV, a separate CD player would be outputting about 8 or 10 times that (2-2.5V) which is what your Denon would be expecting. You’d definitely be better off using a standalone phono preamp from Rega, NAD or Project would be my recommendation. It’s a Moving Magnet (MM) type you need, not moving coil (MC) or one that does both. There are plenty of cheaper ones on Amazon from around £20. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rollin Thunder Posted February 28, 2021 Author Share Posted February 28, 2021 3 minutes ago, Dan Dare said: Cables can be the hi-fi world's equivalent to tone woods in solid electric instruments. You can pay a fortune for them and although it can be argued they can improve sound quality, you won't get a higher signal level by swapping them out. As a cartridge produces such a tiny signal, it needs to be boosted by a phono preamp (which is what you have in your amplifier). The preamp also corrects the frequency balance - low frequencies are minimised when cutting records in order to reduce the amount the record grooves modulate. If they weren't, the stylus wouldn't be able to track them (look up RIAA equalisation for an explanation). You may be able to get a phono preamp that produces higher output than the one built into your amp (you would have to run it into a line, not the phono input). Not sure about that - you'll need to do some research - but you may have to accept that vinyl is not going to produce as high an output as streaming, CDs or DAB. Stand alone phono pre's can be pretty expensive. Have a look online for reviews and recommendations in places such as - Best phono preamps 2021: budget to high-end | What Hi-Fi? and ask a few decent shops for advice (keeping your b/s and snake oil filters firmly engaged). Have fun. cheers so out of touch with the hifi scene, have good local indpependent Hifi shop might just seek there advice, when you are getting above £100 may just accept that have to adjust volume, as I said sound quality is superb just a lot quieter Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rollin Thunder Posted February 28, 2021 Author Share Posted February 28, 2021 3 minutes ago, slojo said: Yes, I see your issue. line level output from the turntable is only 240mV, a separate CD player would be outputting about 8 or 10 times that (2-2.5V) which is what your Denon would be expecting. You’d definitely be better off using a standalone phono preamp from Rega, NAD or Project would be my recommendation. It’s a Moving Magnet (MM) type you need, not moving coil (MC) or one that does both. There are plenty of cheaper ones on Amazon from around £20. cheers worth noting, it's always a toss up between cost and benefit. Bit Like a preamp or cough, compressor on a Bass rig. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaulThePlug Posted February 28, 2021 Share Posted February 28, 2021 Check of you have both Moving Magnet (MM) and Moving Coil (MC) settings... MC is usually a Higher Quality, but a lot less output. If you have MM plugged in but set to MC (A Slide or In/Out switch)...may explain the low vol output.. Phono is gonna be a a fair bit lower than CD, or Tape for that matter. line is uaualy for something like Video or Radio IN in old money... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan Dare Posted February 28, 2021 Share Posted February 28, 2021 2 minutes ago, Rollin Thunder said: cheers so out of touch with the hifi scene, have good local indpependent Hifi shop might just seek there advice, when you are getting above £100 may just accept that have to adjust volume, as I said sound quality is superb just a lot quieter A pleasure. Try to take your amp along to compare the inbuilt pre' with whatever the shop suggests. You may find there isn't a great improvement unless you spend a bit. Denon stuff is pretty decent for the money. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slojo Posted February 28, 2021 Share Posted February 28, 2021 8 minutes ago, Rollin Thunder said: ouch, was looking at something £50-£80 range. but did find this, which has solid enough reviews. https://www.audioaffair.co.uk/pro-ject-phono-box-mm-phono-stage That Project looks ideal. Spending more would be a waste I think. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slojo Posted February 28, 2021 Share Posted February 28, 2021 I think the phono stage is built into his turntable and there isn’t one in the Denon hifi. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan Dare Posted February 28, 2021 Share Posted February 28, 2021 Just now, slojo said: I think the phono stage is built into his turntable and there isn’t one in the Denon hifi. Ah. Didn't think of that. I wonder if it can be by-passed if that's the case. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slojo Posted February 28, 2021 Share Posted February 28, 2021 Yes, there’s a choice of line level or straight from the cartridge. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rollin Thunder Posted February 28, 2021 Author Share Posted February 28, 2021 3 minutes ago, Dan Dare said: A pleasure. Try to take your amp along to compare the inbuilt pre' with whatever the shop suggests. You may find there isn't a great improvement unless you spend a bit. Denon stuff is pretty decent for the money. 1 minute ago, slojo said: Yes, there’s a choice of line level or straight from the cartridge. its set at Line, at Phono sound almost non existent. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rollin Thunder Posted February 28, 2021 Author Share Posted February 28, 2021 8 minutes ago, Dan Dare said: A pleasure. Try to take your amp along to compare the inbuilt pre' with whatever the shop suggests. You may find there isn't a great improvement unless you spend a bit. Denon stuff is pretty decent for the money. cheers, yes the Denon is good, the sound thing is only really a problem when switching from turntable to anything else you forget to drop the volume and boom, going to try the Pro jet box, inexpensive and if it boosts by just 25-30% that should bring it more in line don't think i will get a full unity gain without spending £000's and for a £300 hifi and £200 turntable would be silly money. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan Dare Posted February 28, 2021 Share Posted February 28, 2021 2 minutes ago, Rollin Thunder said: its set at Line, at Phono sound almost non existent. In that case, slojo's correct and the preamp is built into your turntable. You will need to connect the phono out (which is the non-boosted signal) on the turntable to a phono preamp and from there into your amp. Take the turntable to the shop so you can compare them. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Piers_Williamson Posted February 28, 2021 Share Posted February 28, 2021 I just had a version of the same issue, upgrading my hifi from 35 year old student to the 21st Century. My ancient turntable is still relatively good, with a Linn arm on it, but a modern all singing all dancing amp required a pre-amp for the turntable. I got the Rega one, which sounds fantastic. I think vinyl sounds much better than CDs, although posh streaming sounds pretty good too. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rollin Thunder Posted February 28, 2021 Author Share Posted February 28, 2021 (edited) 4 minutes ago, Piers_Williamson said: I just had a version of the same issue, upgrading my hifi from 35 year old student to the 21st Century. My ancient turntable is still relatively good, with a Linn arm on it, but a modern all singing all dancing amp required a pre-amp for the turntable. I got the Rega one, which sounds fantastic. I think vinyl sounds much better than CDs, although posh streaming sounds pretty good too. Its a made field (lol) if you are out of the game for a bit, I know my bass rig, amp, power amp/powered cab modeller preamp set up better than just plugging in a turntable to a hifi. Loving the new rig though, better than my old turntable into my old Philips Hifi. Edited February 28, 2021 by Rollin Thunder Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rollin Thunder Posted February 28, 2021 Author Share Posted February 28, 2021 6 minutes ago, Dan Dare said: In that case, slojo's correct and the preamp is built into your turntable. You will need to connect the phono out (which is the non-boosted signal) on the turntable to a phono preamp and from there into your amp. Take the turntable to the shop so you can compare them. Shop still shut due to covid collection only, but they are really helpfull and have a good returns policy. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan Dare Posted February 28, 2021 Share Posted February 28, 2021 (edited) Fwiw, I have the Rega, too and am happy with it. Edited February 28, 2021 by Dan Dare Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slojo Posted February 28, 2021 Share Posted February 28, 2021 Just read the specs on that Project phono stage and output voltage looks as low as the line level output from the turntable (200mV). I would take Dan Dare’s advice and contact a dealer for advice like Audio Affair. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RAY AGAINST THE MACHINE Posted February 28, 2021 Share Posted February 28, 2021 All great advice as usual . Could I ask what model no your Denon is ? We may be able to get pic of rear on richer sounds website , just to make sure everything is connected as it should be . Some turntables used to have an earth wire iirc, which had to be screwed in the back of the amp . A pre amp should sort . Thick speaker cable ( 79 strand ) is not too expensive , and you'd hear a lot more bass and definition . Also in the future funds permitting, when the stylus is worn out a change of cartridge would work wonders . But that's a while yet . Enjoy your new system 😼👍 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rollin Thunder Posted February 28, 2021 Author Share Posted February 28, 2021 4 minutes ago, RAY AGAINST THE MACHINE said: All great advice as usual . Could I ask what model no your Denon is ? We may be able to get pic of rear on richer sounds website , just to make sure everything is connected as it should be . Some turntables used to have an earth wire iirc, which had to be screwed in the back of the amp . A pre amp should sort . Thick speaker cable ( 79 strand ) is not too expensive , and you'd hear a lot more bass and definition . Also in the future funds permitting, when the stylus is worn out a change of cartridge would work wonders . But that's a while yet . Enjoy your new system 😼👍 Denon D-M41DAB Aux in no ground Turntable, which as a built in preamp which has a ground connector, but not used this as now hum or anything https://www.audio-technica.com/en-gb/turntables/best-for/step-up-models/at-lp120xusb Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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