Al Heeley Posted February 17, 2009 Share Posted February 17, 2009 (edited) Wondered what the pros and cons were of using the amps send and return loop for effects instead of going straight into the pre-amp input? Which is best practice and why? I guess if you are processing the raw signal from a bass before the pre-amp, then you might lose some of the definition of the signal, or the characteristics of the instrument? I would view the signal from the pre-amp as being more robust but being coloured in some way from the pre-amp stage before entering the effect. Does it make a noticable difference? Does best practice vary depending on the pedal type? Edited February 17, 2009 by Al Heeley Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toasted Posted February 17, 2009 Share Posted February 17, 2009 For me, it varies upon pedal type. I stuff everything up front. If I was thinking about it and I could be bothered running some in the loop and some up front I'd put all my pitch and time based effects in the loop, and all my fuzz and filter effects up front. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hamster Posted February 17, 2009 Share Posted February 17, 2009 I've played around with this a bit - not that I know why one way sounds better than the other. What I've settled with is I don't put any distortion/fuzz/overdrive pedals through the amps loop - I put those straight into the amp input and I put stuff like chorus/octaver/filters/delays etc through the amps effects loop. I seem to get a better sound like this, and I'm guessing that it's something to do with how the preamp handles a distorted signal? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silent Fly Posted February 17, 2009 Share Posted February 17, 2009 [quote name='Al Heeley' post='411928' date='Feb 17 2009, 12:53 PM']Wondered what the pros and cons were of using the amps send and return loop for effects instead of going straight into the pre-amp input? Which is best practice and why? […] Does best practice vary depending on the pedal type?[/quote] These are an interesting question but I don’t see it as a pros/cons issue. In my opinion it is more about what is advisable for any given device. The preamplifier input is an instrument-level, high impedance input. The send/return loop is a line-level, low impedance connection. If the processor was designed to run at instrument level is advisable connect it between instrument and preamplifier. If the processor was designed for operating at line level, it should be connected in the send/return loop. There are also cases where the position of the connection makes a difference in the sound processing itself. Compressors are a good example. If a compressor is connected between instrument and preamplifier, the compression takes place pre-eq. If it is in the send/return loop, the signal is compressed post-eq. Moreover, if the compressor is in the send/return loop, because the volume control (aka master) is usually pre send/return, the compressors starts to kick in depending on the position of the master knob. [quote name='Al Heeley' post='411928' date='Feb 17 2009, 12:53 PM']I guess if you are processing the raw signal from a bass before the pre-amp, then you might lose some of the definition of the signal, or the characteristics of the instrument?[/quote] Not necessarily. If the preamplifier and the sound processor are good quality devices, it shouldn’t make any difference. Equally, if the processor/pedal has an input stage that works better (e.g. it has the correct impedance for the pickup in use) it might be advisable connect it before the amplifier. [quote name='Al Heeley' post='411928' date='Feb 17 2009, 12:53 PM']I would view the signal from the pre-amp as being more robust but being coloured in some way from the pre-amp stage before entering the effect.[/quote] In terms of sound, you are probably right. Usually (but not always) the preamplifier adds its own personality to the signal. From the electric point of view, the signal in the send/return loop is more “robust” because is at higher voltage level and it is generated by a lower impedance source. Silent Fly Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Al Heeley Posted February 17, 2009 Author Share Posted February 17, 2009 Do the stomp box manufacturers actually offer recommendations on the best use of their different pedals? ie: before pre-amp or in the effects loop? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cheddatom Posted February 17, 2009 Share Posted February 17, 2009 I find it weird that two people have suggested putting pitch/octave effects in the loop with distortion before the input. This compared to the effect order threads where people say "always put your pitch fx first". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hamster Posted February 17, 2009 Share Posted February 17, 2009 [quote name='cheddatom' post='411982' date='Feb 17 2009, 02:07 PM']I find it weird that two people have suggested putting pitch/octave effects in the loop with distortion before the input. This compared to the effect order threads where people say "always put your pitch fx first".[/quote] All things being equal logic dictates you put an octaver first so it has a clean signal to track, however all pedals are not made equal I suppose - that's why there's no definitive order? A case of 100 people = 100 different answers I suppose. Now if we all had the exact same fingers/style/bass/leads/pedals/patches/amps/cabs/hairdos etc it might be a closer call! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silent Fly Posted February 17, 2009 Share Posted February 17, 2009 [quote name='Al Heeley' post='411980' date='Feb 17 2009, 02:06 PM']Do the stomp box manufacturers actually offer recommendations on the best use of their different pedals? ie: before pre-amp or in the effects loop?[/quote] Stomp boxes are usually designed to operate at instrument level. I am sure there are exceptions and I guess if this is the case the manufacturer would put a note in the specs. There are multi-fx units that can operate at both levels. AFAIK, the [url="http://www.bosscorp.co.jp/products/en/GT-Pro/specs.html"]Boss GT-Pro[/url], the line6 X3 live and X3 Pro can work at instrument and line level. You can always try and see. It shouldn’t damage the pedal but I suggest you be extra-careful. The return jack socket is connected directly to the power stage of the amp [i]without attenuation[/i]. If something goes wrong, the entire power of the amp is delivered to the speaker regardless of the position of the master knob. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
warwickhunt Posted February 17, 2009 Share Posted February 17, 2009 With some amps you don't get the choice! By that I mean that my Thunderfunk can not accept the signal chain that goes; bass > pedals > amp input. The pedals are all stomp pedals (Boss Octaver > Boss Chorus > EHM Small Stone > EHM Bass Balls) that you would 'expect' to be able to run in the front of the amp but when you try you get a horrendous whistle (almost like high pitched feedback but I'm no effects guru/techy so no idea if that is what it is). The whole lot sit in the effects loop with no issue! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silent Fly Posted February 17, 2009 Share Posted February 17, 2009 (edited) [quote name='warwickhunt' post='412046' date='Feb 17 2009, 03:05 PM']With some amps you don't get the choice! By that I mean that my Thunderfunk can not accept the signal chain that goes; bass > pedals > amp input. The pedals are all stomp pedals (Boss Octaver > Boss Chorus > EHM Small Stone > EHM Bass Balls) that you would 'expect' to be able to run in the front of the amp but when you try you get a horrendous whistle (almost like high pitched feedback but I'm no effects guru/techy so no idea if that is what it is). The whole lot sit in the effects loop with no issue![/quote] If the chain [i]bass > pedals > amp input[/i] doesn't work there has to be something wrong somewhere. Have you tried connect the pedals in a different order? The high pitch sound may be due to some pedal going in oscillation. I could be due to long cables between pedalboard and amp. I would try with the Boss Chorus last. It is buffered and with a very stable output stage. Edited February 17, 2009 by Silent Fly Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
warwickhunt Posted February 17, 2009 Share Posted February 17, 2009 [quote name='Silent Fly' post='412061' date='Feb 17 2009, 03:18 PM']If the chain [i]bass > pedals > amp input[/i] doesn't work there has to be something wrong somewhere. Have you tried connect the pedals in a different order? The high pitch sound may be due to some pedal going in oscillation. I could be due to long cables between pedalboard and amp. I would try with the Boss Chorus last. It is buffered and with a very stable output stage.[/quote] Thanks for that, I was just throwing my situation out there just in case anyone felt that they were the only ones to have this kind of experience (and maybe afraid to admit it ). I may well try and rearrange the pedals but tbh the effects as they are have ran perfectly well into the front end of my last few amps with no issues (and using the same cables) so I assume it is something to do with the TF! However saying all of that the pedals work absolutely fine in the effects loop so I don't feel that I'd gain anything by rejigging to input into the front end of the amp. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cheddatom Posted February 17, 2009 Share Posted February 17, 2009 [quote name='Hamster' post='412032' date='Feb 17 2009, 02:54 PM']All things being equal logic dictates you put an octaver first so it has a clean signal to track, however all pedals are not made equal I suppose - that's why there's no definitive order? A case of 100 people = 100 different answers I suppose. Now if we all had the exact same fingers/style/bass/leads/pedals/patches/amps/cabs/hairdos etc it might be a closer call! [/quote] Yeh, but these look like the same people giving contradictory answers? I'm not looking for any answers on the subject for myself, just interested in why someone would think an octave pedal should go first in the chain if before the amp, but after distortion if in the amp's loop. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eight Posted February 17, 2009 Share Posted February 17, 2009 Is the effects loop amplified/eq'd whatever after it returns? i.e. Input -> Amp -> Effects Send -> Effects Return -> Cab or Input -> Amp -> Effects Send -> Effects Return -> Amp -> Cab or even Input -> Effects Send -> Effects Return -> Amp -> Cab ??? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hamster Posted February 17, 2009 Share Posted February 17, 2009 [quote name='cheddatom' post='412106' date='Feb 17 2009, 04:01 PM']Yeh, but these look like the same people giving contradictory answers? I'm not looking for any answers on the subject for myself, just interested in why someone would think an octave pedal should go first in the chain if before the amp, but after distortion if in the amp's loop.[/quote] Purely because with the pedals I have at the moment [i]I think[/i] it sounds better after the distortion in the amp loop - but my ears have been known to be wrong. I dare saw if you listened to it you might think it's better the other way around? I ran all the pedals into the front of the amp for ages, but I had a play around - and I think I'm going to have another play around soon! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Al Heeley Posted February 17, 2009 Author Share Posted February 17, 2009 [quote]Is the effects loop amplified/eq'd whatever after it returns?[/quote] My understanding is the effects send takes the signal from the pre-amp. the effects return feeds back into the power amp. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cheddatom Posted February 17, 2009 Share Posted February 17, 2009 Hamster - Fair enough, it's all about what it sounds like to your own ears, obviously. It's just that this pitch FX tracking issue comes up all the time, and it's treated as fact that pitch FX should come before any distortion. I've personally had goodd results both ways round. [quote name='Al Heeley' post='412194' date='Feb 17 2009, 04:52 PM']My understanding is the effects send takes the signal from the pre-amp. the effects return feeds back into the power amp.[/quote] It depends on the amp I think. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eight Posted February 17, 2009 Share Posted February 17, 2009 [quote name='Al Heeley' post='412194' date='Feb 17 2009, 04:52 PM']My understanding is the effects send takes the signal from the pre-amp. the effects return feeds back into the power amp.[/quote] Ah ok. So thats line level output/input on the effects loop? With instrument level on the main amp input. Handy to know, cheers. (Assuming I've understood ) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silent Fly Posted February 17, 2009 Share Posted February 17, 2009 [quote name='Eight' post='412158' date='Feb 17 2009, 04:32 PM']Is the effects loop amplified/eq'd whatever after it returns?[...][/quote] It is: [codebox]input -> [preamplifier/EQ->---+ +-->power amp] -> cab | | (send) (return) | | V ^[/codebox] Where everything in square brackets [] is the amplifier. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silent Fly Posted February 17, 2009 Share Posted February 17, 2009 (edited) [quote name='Eight' post='412351' date='Feb 17 2009, 07:23 PM']Ah ok. So thats line level output/input on the effects loop? With instrument level on the main amp input. Handy to know, cheers. (Assuming I've understood )[/quote] To clarify: The signal goes into the amp at "instrument level" (around 500mV). The preamplification increases the voltage to "line level" (aka 4dBu: 1.23V). The signal between the preamplifier and the power amp is made available through the send/receive connection. Because the signal is after the preamplifier (and before the power amp) it is at line level. After the power amp the signal is at much higher level. The voltage is determined by the power delivered by the amplifier and the impedance of the cab. The voltage can be calculated with: V = SQRT(P * R). Where V is the voltage, SQRT is the square root, P is the power delivered, R is the impedance of the speaker. E.g. to deliver 300W in an 8 ohm cab, the power amp generates around 50V. Edited February 18, 2009 by Silent Fly Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eight Posted February 18, 2009 Share Posted February 18, 2009 Thanks Fly, that's really helped. I've always been more of a software and midi guy so there are some big holes in my knowledge of hardware/amplifiers etc. Now there's one less. Sorry to jack the thread. To answer the original I have one pedal - a fuzz which goes into the front. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnnylager Posted February 18, 2009 Share Posted February 18, 2009 I currently shove it all in the front, but I might try the compressor in the loop, as I would then be compressing the whole preamped & eq'd signal. [The LH loop is post eq / pre volume]. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silent Fly Posted February 18, 2009 Share Posted February 18, 2009 [quote name='Eight' post='412703' date='Feb 18 2009, 08:32 AM']Thanks Fly, that's really helped. I've always been more of a software and midi guy so there are some big holes in my knowledge of hardware/amplifiers etc. Now there's one less. [...][/quote] You are welcome Eight - if you need more details or info please feel free to send me a PM. SF Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dood Posted February 18, 2009 Share Posted February 18, 2009 [quote name='cheddatom' post='412223' date='Feb 17 2009, 05:11 PM']It depends on the amp I think.[/quote] Yes, for example, both the Trace Elliot V-Type AND the MarkBass F1 Amplifiers have their effects loop BEFORE the EQ section. The signal chain is BASS > Gain Stage> Effects Loop > Gain Stage > EQ > Line Driver > Power Amplifier section > Output Personally, i think it is better to have the EQ after an effects loop, especially if you are using dynamics effects or compression in the loop. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xgsjx Posted February 18, 2009 Share Posted February 18, 2009 I always put my fx between bass & amp, but after reading this I have tried putting it in the loop. + side, I lose most of the high pitched squeal that was there from using the Godlyke PSU on the MF101 (the VLE got rid of this by turning to just above 9 oclock). - side, I need to pull the head out the combo to change the jumper as I get clean signal mixed with fx signal. Might suit some folk, doesn't suit me. But I'll try changing the jumper. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xgsjx Posted February 19, 2009 Share Posted February 19, 2009 I tried changing the jumper over on my amp, still got the clean bass signal along side the effected one. Back into the front for me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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