spiltmilk_2000 Posted January 16, 2009 Share Posted January 16, 2009 OK, so with all the discussion of modes, it's got me thinking about minor scales and their relative modes and i realised I'm unclear how these work! In the major scale i understand that by harmonising the notes of the major scale you end up with the following pattern (example in key of C): Cmaj7, Dm, Em, F, G7, Am, Bhalfdim, C I know each of the modes that relate to each interval of the scale but how does it work in a minor key? What pattern of major / minor chords does it create and what extensions are there for each (ie. maj/minor 6ths or 7ths etc) How is it affected if we harmonise the melodic or harmonic minor scales instead of the natural minor?? I have a feeling responses are going to be pretty complicated! Any help, in idiot proof terms where possible, greatly appreciated! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doctor_of_the_bass Posted January 16, 2009 Share Posted January 16, 2009 Talking about this in terms of the relative minor key to C Major (A natural minor), one could say you derive the following: Am BDim Cmaj7 Dm Em Fmaj G7, Am So, instead of: ionian, dorian, phrygian, lydian, mixolydian, aeolian, locrian you are starting out at aeolian, then going thru the modes as is eg. locrian, ionian etc. Does this answer your question? Nick Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spiltmilk_2000 Posted January 16, 2009 Author Share Posted January 16, 2009 [quote name='doctor_of_the_bass' post='382225' date='Jan 16 2009, 12:08 PM']Talking about this in terms of the relative minor key to C Major (A natural minor), one could say you derive the following: Am BDim Cmaj7 Dm Em Fmaj G7, Am So, instead of: ionian, dorian, phrygian, lydian, mixolydian, aeolian, locrian you are starting out at aeolian, then going thru the modes as is eg. locrian, ionian etc. Does this answer your question? Nick[/quote] Aha! obvious really! just exactly the same but starting on the 6th degree of the scale (relative minor) yeah? So what about melodic and harmonic minor? I guess that would only change the 2nd degree chord (Bdim in this case)??? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jakenewmanbass Posted January 16, 2009 Share Posted January 16, 2009 (edited) [quote name='spiltmilk_2000' post='382189' date='Jan 16 2009, 11:51 AM']OK, so with all the discussion of modes, it's got me thinking about minor scales and their relative modes and i realised I'm unclear how these work! In the major scale i understand that by harmonising the notes of the major scale you end up with the following pattern (example in key of C): Cmaj7, Dm, Em, F, G7, Am, Bhalfdim, C I know each of the modes that relate to each interval of the scale but how does it work in a minor key? What pattern of major / minor chords does it create and what extensions are there for each (ie. maj/minor 6ths or 7ths etc) How is it affected if we harmonise the melodic or harmonic minor scales instead of the natural minor?? I have a feeling responses are going to be pretty complicated! Any help, in idiot proof terms where possible, greatly appreciated! [/quote] To my mind the easiest way to do this is the physical way, there [i]are[/i] modes for harmonic and melodic minor and the way to find them is: Establish what notes are within the mother scale. Then play from each note of the scale to the same note an octave higher. Make sure you conform to the notes of the mother scale (but with your newly found order) Slowly and carefully learn the patterns of finger movement and then analyse what it is you have played for each scale. you will find that there are some interesting sounds especially the modes of the melodic minor, which is the doorway to most altered harmony which is staple for jazz. I would write them out but it's detailed and I think it would put some folk off. Far better IMO to simply work with a principle that accesses all. Edited January 16, 2009 by jakesbass Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jakenewmanbass Posted January 16, 2009 Share Posted January 16, 2009 (edited) [quote name='spiltmilk_2000' post='382250' date='Jan 16 2009, 12:19 PM']Aha! obvious really! just exactly the same but starting on the 6th degree of the scale (relative minor) yeah? So what about melodic and harmonic minor? I guess that would only change the 2nd degree chord (Bdim in this case)???[/quote] I was just about to point this out from Nicks analysis. It [i][b]is[/b][/i] B half dim. I does not change as its minor, just a small error on Nicks part. Diminished and half diminished chords are entirely different animals and perform seperate functions. Jake Edited January 16, 2009 by jakesbass Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TKenrick Posted January 16, 2009 Share Posted January 16, 2009 +1 on everything jakesbass has already said, I found that writing out the scales (note names, not in notation) helped me to get them into my head a bit better. Try writing out the scale, e.g. C melodic minor: C D Eb F G A B C Then pick out the chord tones (C Eb G and B in this case) which gives you the chord type that you'd apply the mode over: Cm(maj7) The remaining notes of the scale give you the chord extensions up to the 13th, which help to pin down the characteristic sound of the mode. I found that this helped me when I was trying to work out the names of the other modes. If you take a C melodic minor scale and start on D you get D Eb F G A B C D, which gives you a scale that resembles the dorian mode, but with a b9 (Eb), so you could call the mode D dorian b9, and play it over a Dm7(b9) chord. Hopefully this is more helpful than it is confusing! Tom Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcgraham Posted January 16, 2009 Share Posted January 16, 2009 (edited) Satriani often refers to scales that are modes of a mother scale other than the major/minor by their closest relative mode from the major scale (e.g. Dorian, Phrygian etc) but with inserted sharps/flats on certain intervals to make them easier to remember. I find this helpful. +1 to Jake's method of learning them. Essentially if you work on playing a given scale (forget it's modes) in every position, (i.e. all notes across all strings in a given position, then shift), you will cover all of the modes as each time you shift your starting note you'll be 'playing' that mode. That way you've got the muscle memory and visualisation of each mode/scale down, across the neck, understanding their relation... all that remains is to get your ear to 'latch' onto the 'new' home note that is the root of that mode. Mark Edited January 16, 2009 by mcgraham Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alexclaber Posted January 16, 2009 Share Posted January 16, 2009 The modes of the harmonic minor open a world of possibilities in exotic sounding scales, giving a more eastern vibe. I remember my band back at uni having quite a weird song in our set which if I remember correctly (it was a long time ago!) it was based around the 3rd mode of the harmonic minor scale yet rhythmically it was rather like Tower Of Power. Not the most accessible tune but fun to play... Alex Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jakenewmanbass Posted January 16, 2009 Share Posted January 16, 2009 (edited) [quote name='TKenrick' post='382359' date='Jan 16 2009, 01:35 PM']I found that this helped me when I was trying to work out the names of the other modes. If you take a C melodic minor scale and start on D you get D Eb F G A B C D, which gives you a scale that resembles the dorian mode, but with a b9 (Eb), so you could call the mode D dorian b9, and play it over a Dm7(b9) chord. Hopefully this is more helpful than it is confusing! Tom[/quote] Thanks for the +1 Tom (and Mark) yours and Mark's are both other interesting analyses and I should add that when I described my method I was describing what works for me as a both student and teacher of the subject, but in general I am an advocate of the idea of discovering via whatever means works for the individual (and that differs from person to person) In other words to the OP: [b]Its All Valid[/b] Edited January 17, 2009 by jakesbass Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bilbo Posted January 16, 2009 Share Posted January 16, 2009 (edited) Supplementary information: Chord scale for a Melodic minor scale in C C min/maj7 D m7 Eb Maj7sharp5 F 7sharp11 G 7 A m7b5 B m7b5 Chord scale for a Harmonic minor in C C min/Maj7 D m7b5 Eb Maj7sharp5 F min7 G 7b9 Ab Maj7sharp11 B dim This is off the top of my head so please correct me if I have got it wrong. Edited January 17, 2009 by bilbo230763 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alun Posted January 16, 2009 Share Posted January 16, 2009 Isn't the second chord of the melodic minor Dm7? Cheers Alun Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spiltmilk_2000 Posted January 16, 2009 Author Share Posted January 16, 2009 Bilbos post was the kind of thing i was looking for... but to be honest, i think the only way i'll ever actually understand all this is by doing all the groundwork as others suggested! Thanks everyone! I wont be stuck for something to practise for the next 30 years that's for sure! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doctor_of_the_bass Posted January 16, 2009 Share Posted January 16, 2009 [quote name='jakesbass' post='382261' date='Jan 16 2009, 12:24 PM']I was just about to point this out from Nicks analysis. It [i][b]is[/b][/i] B half dim. I does not change as its minor, just a small error on Nicks part. Diminished and half diminished chords are entirely different animals and perform seperate functions. Jake[/quote] Sorry! Typo on my part! Ta! Nick Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spiltmilk_2000 Posted January 16, 2009 Author Share Posted January 16, 2009 Doctor of bass! that is some photo you have there! too small to see what bass is what but that makes it all the more alluring... leaving something to the imagination like :-) One day.... [quote name='doctor_of_the_bass' post='382649' date='Jan 16 2009, 05:12 PM']Sorry! Typo on my part! Ta! Nick[/quote] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bilbo Posted January 16, 2009 Share Posted January 16, 2009 Yes, Alun. You are right. WIll amend! (trouble is I was doing it away from my bass) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dlloyd Posted January 16, 2009 Share Posted January 16, 2009 [quote name='bilbo230763' post='382474' date='Jan 16 2009, 03:02 PM']Chord scale for a Harmonic minor in C C min/Maj7 [b]D dim[/b] Eb Maj7sharp5 F min7 G 7b9 Ab Maj7sharp11 B dim This is off the top of my head so please correct me if I have got it wrong.[/quote] m7b5 surely? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doctor_of_the_bass Posted January 16, 2009 Share Posted January 16, 2009 Here's some light relief! 20 of my girls in the sunshine! (Cheers Spiltmilk!)... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dlloyd Posted January 17, 2009 Share Posted January 17, 2009 Diatonic modes: I Ionian 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 II Dorian 1 2 b3 4 5 6 b7 III Phrygian 1 b2 b3 4 5 b6 b7 IV Lydian 1 2 3 #4 5 6 7 V Mixolydian 1 2 3 4 5 6 b7 VI Aeolian 1 2 b3 4 5 b6 b7 VII Superlocrian 1 b2 b3 4 b5 b6 b7 Melodic minor modes: Some of these modes, particularly modes IV (Lydian dominant) and VII (altered or superlocrian) are often used in jazz over the V chord in a ii-V-I cadence. I 1 2 b3 4 5 6 7 II 1 b2 b3 4 5 6 b7 III 1 2 3 #4 #5 6 7 (c.w. b1 b2 b3 4 5 b6 b7) IV 1 2 3 #4 5 6 b7 V 1 2 3 4 5 b6 b7 VI 1 2 b3 4 b5 b6 b7 VII 1 b2 b3 b4 b5 b6 b7 Harmonic modes: Modes I, IV and V are used a [b]lot[/b] in Klezmer music. They'll also do cool stuff like superimposing the harmonic minor scale rooted on the V over a V7 chord in a V-i cadence... Wacky. I 1 2 b3 4 5 b6 7 II 1 b2 b3 4 b5 6 b7 III 1 2 3 4 #5 6 7 (c.w. b1 b2 b3 b4 5 b6 b7) IV 1 2 b3 #4 5 6 b7 V 1 b2 3 4 5 b6 b7 VI 1 #2 3 #4 5 6 7 (c.w. b1 2 b3 4 b5 b6 b7) VII 1 b2 b3 b4 b5 b6 bb7 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikey D Posted January 17, 2009 Share Posted January 17, 2009 [quote name='bilbo230763' post='382474' date='Jan 16 2009, 03:02 PM']Supplementary information: Chord scale for a Melodic minor scale in C C min/maj7 D m7 Eb Maj7sharp5 F 7sharp11 G 7 A m7b5 B m7b5[/quote] As bilbo said, just with a few things I found useful. Obviously we tend to use the ascending form of the melodic minor. When applying to jazz (and other music obviously) you can get a lot of value from learning the melodic minor harmonies, especially when used on the dominant. Cmin/maj7 (can be applied in IImi in Bbmaj and Cm when it occurs as a tonic) D7susb9 (Ami7b5natural9/D)(Apply as a sound in V7 situations) EbMaj7#4#5 (apply in tonic and sub dominant situations) F7#11 (apply to V7 and IV7 situations or when F7 is a tonic such as in a blues) G7 b6 (apply to V7 situations) Ami7b5 (apply in minor cadences) Bmi7b5 or V7 alt (b9#9ª11b13) (altered) Therefore the mode generates 4 dominant (V7) sounds V7 sus b9 V7#11 V7 b6 V7 alt So over G7 you can use: F melodic minor which generates G7 sus b9 C melodic minor which generates G7 b6 D melodic minor which generates G7#11 Ab melodic minor which generates G7 alt Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alun Posted January 17, 2009 Share Posted January 17, 2009 [quote name='dlloyd' post='382785' date='Jan 16 2009, 08:19 PM']m7b5 surely?[/quote] You could argue either as B and C are both in the scale Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Funk Posted January 17, 2009 Share Posted January 17, 2009 [quote name='dlloyd' post='383048' date='Jan 17 2009, 10:20 AM']Harmonic modes: [...]They'll also do cool stuff like superimposing the harmonic minor scale rooted on the V over a V7 chord in a V-i cadence... Wacky.[/quote] Je ne comprends pas. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dlloyd Posted January 17, 2009 Share Posted January 17, 2009 [quote name='The Funk' post='383141' date='Jan 17 2009, 12:27 PM']Je ne comprends pas.[/quote] Imagine playing in C minor... they'll use C harmonic minor, then when there's a G7-Cm cadence at the end of a phrase, they'll play G harmonic minor over the G7. At first glance, that might not seem like a good idea, but it works. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Funk Posted January 17, 2009 Share Posted January 17, 2009 [quote name='dlloyd' post='383179' date='Jan 17 2009, 12:52 PM']Imagine playing in C minor... they'll use C harmonic minor, then when there's a G7-Cm cadence at the end of a phrase, they'll play G harmonic minor over the G7. At first glance, that might not seem like a good idea, but it works.[/quote] Interesting! So that's a Klezmer trick - do you know if people have used it successfully outside of Klezmer? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dlloyd Posted January 17, 2009 Share Posted January 17, 2009 [quote name='The Funk' post='383190' date='Jan 17 2009, 01:02 PM']Interesting! So that's a Klezmer trick - do you know if people have used it successfully outside of Klezmer?[/quote] Haven't the foggiest... but, I'd be surprised if they hadn't, as jazz has been majorly influenced by klezmer. I'm trying to get a more folky klezmer-influenced thing together at the moment. I'll certainly have a go with that particular trick. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bilbo Posted January 17, 2009 Share Posted January 17, 2009 [quote name='dlloyd' post='382785' date='Jan 16 2009, 08:19 PM']m7b5 surely?[/quote] Yup - edited accordingly Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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