Improving Analogue Octaver tracking

[prowla]

A compressor before the octave pedal helps.

I also toyed with putting a passive tone control in front of it, so roll off the harmonics which might confuse it.

I've just got a Markbass Super Synth, whose octave function seems OK; it offers +1. -2, and -2 octaves and tracks pretty well. Not cheap if you just want an octave, though!

My other octave pedal is an Aguilar Octamizer and, as folks have mentioned, it's happy going to the C (or maybe B) on the A string; I also found that the sound breaks up if you hold a note and let it fade. I put a CP-1X compressor in front and that made a distinct improvement on stability and I seemed to be able to do an A too. The reason I chose the Aguilar over others I tried (MXR, Boss) was that it kept the character of the notes played, rather than producing a dull mush; however, needing to compress and/or turn down the tone kindof defeats that.

I think that doing octave below on the lower registers on a bass may be hitting the laws of physics.

Some years ago, I made an octave up pedal (I think based on something in Elektor magazine) and it was interesting; essentially half-wave rectifying the signal doubles the frequency and adds a distortion.

Another thing I've considered is trying a sub generator rack unit - I don't recall the brand though (dbx?).

And finally, as an adjunct, I've got a Minitaur, which can do some interesting stuff; however, I'm not very good at standing on one leg, so playing it is a bit of a struggle for me!

Edited April 29, 2018 by prowla

[radiophonic]

I'm now pretty certain that all the limitations I'm getting are down to the deadspot problem. USA Fretless jJazz is glitching in exactly the same spot and both basses track comfortably to open A with a sustained note.  In fact I was surprised at how little improvement I got, moving from a Stingray to the neck P/u on a Jazz. Almost nothing in it under normal playing conditions.

 

[HazBeen]

This may be true, I have more tracking issues with Fender AVRI P on my synth and octave pedals compared to when I use my 100% composite Bogarts, they simply are more precise and track better. I often use both the P and one of the Bogart basses in a set and side by side the difference is quite noticeable.

[Cuzzie]

12 string bass is the best analogue octaver I have used.

Shame the limitations are due to my fingers

[Al Krow]

13 minutes ago, Cuzzie said:

12 string bass is the best analogue octaver I have used.

Shame the limitations are due to my fingers

How good is your 12 string at doing octave down? 

[Cuzzie]

As you well no Mr Krow considering it’s tuned to Drop D and half a step down, i think I have the low end nicely covered.

@Al Krow how often do you octave down C and below on your 5 string and it track perfectly to counter balance your pokey tongue, and how audible is that low threshold to us mere human ears?

[dannybuoy]

Aha, but I’d like to hear your 12 string sound like a bass synth!

https://1drv.ms/f/s!ApKsVfvGwYkOiqcUT79WoDBsenS1pQ

[Al Krow]

37 minutes ago, Cuzzie said:

As you well no Mr Krow considering it’s tuned to Drop D and half a step down, i think I have the low end nicely covered.

@Al Krow how often do you octave down C and below on your 5 string and it track perfectly to counter balance your pokey tongue, and how audible is that low threshold to us mere human ears?

I'd expect any decent octaver to track to at least the B above the E string as a bare minimum - typically analogue octavers get to around the G => an octave down = the low B string

Anything below the low B I agree you can't really hear well. 

However, Ideally I'd like an octaver to be able track down to a low E to minimise 'glitching'.

For me the main purposes of an octave down pedal is two fold:

a)  fill out your sound particularly in conjunction with clean blend;

b)  give you deep synthy goodness, potentially with little or no clean blend; 

I agree that a 12 string should do a) , but will struggle with (i.e. not be capable by itself of) b). But perhaps more importantly most of us will struggle with playing a 12 string in the first place!  

[Al Krow]

4 minutes ago, dannybuoy said:

Aha, but I’d like to hear your 12 string sound like a bass synth!

https://1drv.ms/f/s!ApKsVfvGwYkOiqcUT79WoDBsenS1pQ

+1 You and I were thinking exactly along the same lines  

[Cuzzie]

@Al Krow so you have agreed then I have the low end covered so that answers the first part....

[Cuzzie]

@dannybuoy @Al Krow why on earth you would want your bass to sound like a Casio keyboard I got for my 5th birthday to play the theme tune to manic miner on I do not know, but I am sure it’s easily possible, you don’t have to hit all courses of the strings each time fellas, plus I have a Mantic Beef Bag and reckon I could out sub you both if required......

[dannybuoy]

Kids today you see, they like to take drugs and dance to Casio keyboards (or Boss OC-2s) in darkened rooms:

 

[Cuzzie]

Crikey, I was before my time. 

I should have cranked the Bossanova preset, gathered in my Bontempi organ and learnt Jet set Willy as well

[Al Krow]

4 hours ago, Cuzzie said:

@Al Krow so you have agreed then I have the low end covered so that answers the first part....

Er no...you're not managing to get any lower than an E on your 12 string. And even if you were to mess about drop tuning 3 strings on a 12 string to a D, that's nowhere near where a decent octaver will go in terms of lows - you need to manage at least what a 5 string bass can do in terms of low end.

And you're clearly undervaluing the importance of Casio keyboards or, as they were better known back in my day: "Moog".

For a decent authentic octave up, yup I can see that an 8 string should work just fine.

[Cuzzie]

@Al Krow lack of understanding on Drop tuning.

In fact all 12 strings are dropped - the E is taken down to a C# and the ADG down half a step, so yes there is not the ‘full’ range of a fiver, I am missing 2 Notes.......(not missing as I rarely if ever need them).

How often are you using an Open E (normal tuning) tracking an octave below so you are transmitting a note lower than a low B on a 5 string, or any notes lower than a B once octaved down?

The reason I ask is most Sub harmoniser pedals have their frequencies labelled at 30 and 60Hz and also a ‘sub’ one. We all know the Sub is about feel and not hear as only the best newborn type ears hear down to approx 20Hz at very very very best, so an open E is going quite low, and bearing in mind you like a filter cutting heavily at approx 28Hz, then Notes below an open B on a fiver will be lost? Or do I have the wrong end of the stick?

 

[Cuzzie]

@Al Krow regarding synth keyboards in our youth, you must have had a different childhood to me, Moog gear was off my pay scale.

I would have thought with your love of Japanese instruments you may not have had a Moog, or is that what put you off USA made stuff?

[Al Krow]

Ok if you are detuning the entire 12 strings to C# I agree you have the low end pretty well covered!

I think, however, 'practical' points still kill the 12 string option as an 'octaver'. Here's seven :

1. As a gigging covers band bassist with typically 2 x 1 hour sets, I am generally looking to take just one bass with me per gig - so if I am taking a 12 string I would want to play everything on that;

2. If I have a bass detuned to C#, that does mean having to 're-learn' positioning on our entire set list as there is no way I am going to have time in (max) 30 seconds between songs in a covers set to retune to standard E and subsequently detune if required;

3. I'm not convinced that a 12 string gives you anything like the flexibility of playing styles that you have on normal basses e.g. listen to the bass line on Jet 'Are you going to be my girl' - can you easily play that on a 12 with note bends across all three strings? 

4. At most there are a going to be just a few songs needing an octave down or up in a set - seems a lot more practical to just kick my COG T16 on for those;

5. There will be plenty of songs where I don't want an octave up on - how easy is it going to be to avoid the octave strings on a 12 as compared to switching an octave pedal off?

6. A decent octave pedal costs around £100 second hand; I'm guessing that your 12 string bass cost a multiple of that? So for what I need it for, a decent octave pedal wins on cost / benefit grounds also.

7. I've yet to hear a 12 string or 8 string being played in a live mix, sounding 'more' or better. I guess if they did, you'd find more than about four professional bassists globally would be using them as their main instrument? 

Conclusion

I would love to find an 'excuse' to get an 8 string myself (as you know) - but for all of the above reasons, I'm struggling to make the case to myself, other than it would be fun in the bedroom (but hey there are worse things in life than that I'll grant you! )

As a purely recording / solo instrument for the studio, yes I could see it adding something. So for original material / recording studios the 12 or 8 would seem to have a place as an additional tool in the arsenal; for a gigging covers bassist IMHO they're never going to be the 'sensible' option and certainly not as a replacement octave pedal.

PS - nope never had a 'Moog' myself, but they did sound good didn't they!

Edited May 6, 2018 by Al Krow

[dannybuoy]

Also don't make the mistake that the fundamental is the only frequency to be concerned with. A low B is 31 Hz but most speakers can't reproduce that very well so it's mainly the harmonics (e.g. at 62 Hz and 124 Hz) you are hearing, which tricks your brain into hearing the fundamental when it's not there.

Anyhow, I think the main reason for wanting an octaver that tracks low is not to try and produce subs that you would struggle to amplify, but merely to stop it glitching when you do have to play a low note. Anything below regular open A sounds far too muddy with octave down, they're more suited to adding low end to higher register playing, which is something you can to an extent cop on an 8/12 string.

[Cuzzie]

Ha!

All points are fair buddy, and not trying to derail anything, by reading comments and what you posted it seemed that most octavers handle an open A no worries to octave down, but below that there is a struggle, so to my simple mind it seems better to play clean low and octave up whether that’s a 5, a Low 6 to a C or a detuned 4.

so your points....

1 - if you are taking 1 bass, it could be 1 12, but certainly no arguments form me on that.

2.  If you tune Drop D it’s good for songs in D and G, everything down a further half step is more for voice protection, but there will be an element of relearning only because your E note is on the second fret, disco octaves are a bar on the same fret instead of a span, but that’s not that bad, it’s all patterns for a song just as sometimes you may play a string open or fretted for the note.

3. You can bend on a 3, it takes training! Certainly lower tuned floppies strings helps with that, or you can slide to pitch change.

4. Again can’t disagree, but taking a second bass and changing is not that difficult, again personal preference.

5. It’s is do-able just hitting the fundamental and not the octave strings, but again 1v2 basses. I would say a multi string octaving bass gives far more richness and overtones compared to a straight octave tracking machine, depends if you want it in your sound (and before you mention it Will the audience know the difference between a 12 an 8 or a pedal, lets not do that again!)

6. There is a cost difference, but if you are only taking 1 bass to a gig, why have you got a million Al?! This one is being discarded!

7. I don’t trust your ears, they have been battered by London noise and living, I reckon a very talented musician we both know may notice!

 

its all an option, it’s definitely giggable, takes time to learn like any instrument and great fun band or solo

[Cuzzie]

@dannybuoy I completely agree, which is why multistrings and guitar and bass  and stringed instruments ofndifferent pitches go so well together

[prowla]

My Marbass Super Synth's octaver does -2; on a bottom-E  you can just hear the individual beats of the sound, rather than a note as such.