Osiris Posted February 9, 2016 Share Posted February 9, 2016 A new side project I have on the go may require the use of some effects on the bass - I don't usually bother with effects live other than a touch of compression and the in built compressor on my amp has that covered! I'm wondering if I was to put a Zoom B3 into the effects loop on my amp (TC RH450) and set the B3 into bypass mode (as it would only be needed for a handful of songs), would this actually mute the output of the amp? Or just bypass the B3 and let the amp work as though there are no effects in the chain? No doubt I can rig it all up later and find out, but I'm sat at my desk at work pondering! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dannybuoy Posted February 9, 2016 Share Posted February 9, 2016 From memory I think you can configure it to either mute or pass through unaffected when in tuner mode. It will need to pass through or it will mute your amp! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lefrash Posted February 9, 2016 Share Posted February 9, 2016 (edited) The b3 works like a chain of 3 stompboxes. So all 3 can be off and it still has throughput. i loved mine. What's your plan with it? Edit: just realised I've answered an entirely different question to what you asked. Sorry. 😂 Edited February 9, 2016 by lefrash Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oopsdabassist Posted February 9, 2016 Share Posted February 9, 2016 if you hit the tuner buttons and hold, the B3 will mute, just hitting the tuner buttons still passes the signal through. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dood Posted February 9, 2016 Share Posted February 9, 2016 I'd maybe suggest that unless you keep the gain on the RH [i]really[/i] low, you may overdrive the input of the B3 as it is designed to run at a conservative instrument level - FX Loops tend to have a much hotter signal which can cause the input of the B3 to distort - and not in a nice way. Better still to make a patch with all effects set to off by default and plug the pedal in to the front of the amp. This will give you your 'bypass' mode. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Osiris Posted February 10, 2016 Author Share Posted February 10, 2016 Thanks for the suggestions, folks. In the end I didn't get a chance to set anything up last night, oh the joys of having a family .... Dood, I always set the amp input gain so that it's just below the point where the pre-amp clips when I really dig in (I was under the impression this is the optimum setting?). With that in mind, if the B3 is in-line between the bass and amp, then presumably and effects that boost the signal, like a drive setting, will also clip the pre-amp? I didn't realise that fx loops have a stronger signal. Any reason for that? Surely they are optimised to work with all fx units (am I right in thinking that the implication is that some units work on different signal levels???) I'm happy to try the B3 both in-line and in the fx loop, but my preference would be for the B3 in the loop - if it can be done without issue - as it just seems like a better option to me. Yeah, I know that's hardly any justification whatsoever, but I just don't like the idea of having pedals between the bass and amp For information, I have been using a Mark Bass super booster as an amp top pedal in the fx loop for years without issue. All the RH450 manual has to say on the matter of the fx loop is that "[i]This break point can be used as a regular serial effects loop for inserting e.g. modulation effects or other external devices.[/i]" Do the input/output spec figures mean anything in regard to the fx loop signal strength? For example, the RH450 manual says that the pre-amp out is - [i]1/4" Jack, Balanced Output, Max Output, Level = +8dBu[/i] Whereas the B3 manual says of its input - [i]Rated input level -20dBm, Input impedance 1MΩ[/i] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dood Posted February 10, 2016 Share Posted February 10, 2016 Replied below: [color=#282828][font=helvetica, arial, sans-serif]Dood, I always set the amp input gain so that it's just below the point where the pre-amp clips when I really dig in (I was under the impression this is the optimum setting?).[/font][/color] [i][font="helvetica, arial, sans-serif"][color="#282828"]That sets the signal going in to the front of the amplifier - the 'preamplifier stages', but does not dictate that the effects send is still running at instrument level though. It could still have a much higher signal at that socket.[/color][/font][/i] I didn't realise that fx loops have a stronger signal. Any reason for that? Surely they are optimised to work with all fx units (am I right in thinking that the implication is that some units work on different signal levels???) [i]Effects Loops in most cases are designed in order to match the levels required by 'outboard' signal devices, such as studio rack effects that accept a higher signal level, known as 'Line Level'. Although modern effects gear is often capable of switching between the two levels. The B3, as a 'pedal' I'm afraid is not.[/i] I'm happy to try the B3 both in-line and in the fx loop, but my preference would be for the B3 in the loop - if it can be done without issue - as it just seems like a better option to me. Yeah, I know that's hardly any justification whatsoever, but I just don't like the idea of having pedals between the bass and amp [i]The B3 is optimised to go between bass and amp rather than in an effects loop.[/i] For information, I have been using a Mark Bass super booster as an amp top pedal in the fx loop for years without issue. [i]Yup, hence my use of the word 'may'. I'm certainly going with my experience of the B3 that I can easily distort with a bass loaded with EMGs and an 18v circuit - and not near line level. YMMV as they say.[/i] All the RH450 manual has to say on the matter of the fx loop is that "[i]This break point can be used as a regular serial effects loop for inserting e.g. modulation effects or other external devices.[/i]" [i]It certainly can, but again, if the device is unable to handle the dynamic range then it will distort. The TC HyperGravity for example is designed to be able to handle line levels as well as instrument levels.[/i] Do the input/output spec figures mean anything in regard to the fx loop signal strength? For example, the RH450 manual says that the pre-amp out is - [i]1/4" Jack, Balanced Output, Max Output, Level = +8dBu[/i] Whereas the B3 manual says of its input - [i]Rated input level -20dBm, Input impedance 1MΩ[/i] [i]Yes - So certainly the above would suggest to me that the output level of the send is capable of being way higher than the Zoom input can handle. 'Capable' that is, but if you wind the amplifier gain control down to the point that you are not distorting the B3, then you'll be fine. However, you may then find that the amplifier is expecting a good strong line level signal, but the B3 is only outputting an instrument level signal. It could appear that your amplifier has lost it's volume somewhat.[/i] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tauzero Posted February 17, 2016 Share Posted February 17, 2016 [quote name='Osiris' timestamp='1455108448' post='2975935'] Dood, I always set the amp input gain so that it's just below the point where the pre-amp clips when I really dig in (I was under the impression this is the optimum setting?). With that in mind, if the B3 is in-line between the bass and amp, then presumably and effects that boost the signal, like a drive setting, will also clip the pre-amp? I didn't realise that fx loops have a stronger signal. Any reason for that? Surely they are optimised to work with all fx units (am I right in thinking that the implication is that some units work on different signal levels???) [/quote] As Dood says, the fx loop operates at a higher signal level - 1V peak-to-peak is the reference level, whereas a bass will typically output 150mV peak to peak. That's so that power amps and rackmount gear all have a consistent level to operate at rather than having to cater for a wide range of input levels, it's just the preamp (and effects pedals) that deal with the lower level signals. Raising the signal level up to 1V peak to peak means that noise becomes less of a problem as if you have a bit of noise of a few mV, it'll be much more significant with a lower level signal than a higher level one. Having tried a B3 in an fx loop myself, I can say that it wasn't happy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Osiris Posted February 19, 2016 Author Share Posted February 19, 2016 OK, I have finally found the time to try the B3 in the effects loop of my TC RH450 and, at in-house volumes at least, it seemed quite happy. No sign of unwanted noise or nasty digital distortion or any obvious loss of volume, although I'd need to confirm that at gig volume to be 100% certain. There was certainly nothing obvious at the volume I was playing - loud enough to annoy my son watching TV but (unfortunately) not loud enough to upset the elderly nosy neighbors. I tried the B3 in both active and passive modes and it worked without issue, using my usual gain and eq settings (gain just below clipping and eq mostly flat with a slight (approx 3dB cut to the low mids) using my passive bastardised Sandberg Basic VM with Seymour Duncan SPB-4 and Nordstrand MM4.4 Pickups, which has a very hot output for a passive bass. So, in answer to my original question - will it mute the amp in bypass mode, the answer is yes and no. Entering tuner mode keeps the signal passing through, putting the B3 into silent tuning mutes the amp. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Osiris Posted February 19, 2016 Author Share Posted February 19, 2016 Just had thought, I don't claim to fully understand all the techy talk about signal levels, but as the B3 seems happy in the effects loop, would the prolonged input of the higher signal do any damage to the unit? (As mentioned earlier, I've been using a Mark Bass Super Booster for about 3 years (approx 30-40 gigs per year) without any obvious problem). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tauzero Posted February 19, 2016 Share Posted February 19, 2016 No, if the level gets too high it'll just clip and sound nasty. Within reason, of course, don't go putting a speaker output into it... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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