Placement of "full range" subs!

[Ghost_Bass]

My drummer is a light hitter and i love it that way. Much more comfort on stage and i don't finish my gigs with my ears ringing.

We use a PA (x2 15" subs + x2 12" tops - RCF) and we send almost everything to the mix. Drum kit is mic'ed on the drums and hit-hat (no snare or cymbals), the rest is all in the PA and mixed according to the venue.

This helps us keep a low on-stage volume and we can enjoy the gig better, hearing everybody, and not getting a headache.

I also would say that the sound we feed to the audience is more balanced and with better dispersion doing it this way.

A decent PA for pubs isn't very expensive and with class-D/Neo is small and light to carry. It will improve the band's overal sound and help you do your job better, with more quality, and win you more gigs.

IMO, of course

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

[quote name='Ghost_Bass' timestamp='1444823522' post='2886358']
My drummer is a light hitter and i love it that way. Much more comfort on stage and i don't finish my gigs with my ears ringing.
We use a PA (x2 15" subs + x2 12" tops - RCF) and we send almost everything to the mix. Drum kit is mic'ed on the drums and hit-hat (no snare or cymbals), the rest is all in the PA and mixed according to the venue.
This helps us keep a low on-stage volume and we can enjoy the gig better, hearing everybody, and not getting a headache.
I also would say that the sound we feed to the audience is more balanced and with better dispersion doing it this way.
A decent PA for pubs isn't very expensive and with class-D/Neo is small and light to carry. It will improve the band's overal sound and help you do your job better, with more quality, and win you more gigs.
[/quote]I agree. The backline, including the drums, need only be loud enough to hear on stage, with the PA covering the room. For that matter I run our guitar player though the stage monitors as well so that we can hear him, since he plays a1x12 combo at sensible levels. Huge backline played at crazy levels made some sense when there was no such thing as good PA, but that hasn't been the case within the lifetimes of most players today.

[ubit]

Whilst I also agree to a certain extent, I think it's wrong to judge a drummist on the fact that he can't not hit hard. Our one is primarily a rock drummist and that's his style. He's a bloody good drummist too!
I bet no one told Jon Bonham or Kieth Moon to quieten down !

Edited October 19, 2015 by ubit

[Ghost_Bass]

[quote name='ubit' timestamp='1445267369' post='2890059']
Whilst I also agree to a certain extent, I think it's wrong to judge a drummist on the fact that he can't not hit hard. Our one is primarily a rock drummist and that's his style. He's a bloody good drummist too!
I bet no one told Jon Bonham or Kieth Moon to quieten down !
[/quote]

OT here: I understand your point and you're right in a way. Hitting hard and playing (too) loud aren't exactly the same thing. You can play with a drummer who has a strong beat and not get your ears ringing in the end of the gig. There are more factors involved in a drum kit's percieved volume, not just the drummer's attack. But a good drummer knows when to hit hard and when to quiet down, and actually does it!

[Chienmortbb]

A lot of sense on here as usual. However a number of so called pro mixer monkeys* seem to think that the kick drum is all that needs to be heard. I was at the Engine Rooms jn Southampton to see Glenn Hughes on Saturday and when the drummer hit the kick you could feel it in your guts. iI was loud and obviously heavily compressed. The effect was that when the kick drum was hit, it drowned out the vocals, bass and guitars. Ironically the worst sound in the room was staring directly behind the mixing console.

So if you cannot hear the drums (or more importantly the audience cannot hear the drums) put them through the PA but not through the Mackies. Mic choice and placement is vital as Phil said earlier in the thread. Also try to remember that it is the overall sound you are aiming for, although as you had the wherewithal to ask for advice, you are probably half way there.

(*they like to be called sound engineers but that is a misnomer)

[alexclaber]

[quote name='Ghost_Bass' timestamp='1445270085' post='2890111']OT here: I understand your point and you're right in a way. Hitting hard and playing (too) loud aren't exactly the same thing. You can play with a drummer who has a strong beat and not get your ears ringing in the end of the gig. There are more factors involved in a drum kit's percieved volume, not just the drummer's attack. But a good drummer knows when to hit hard and when to quiet down, and actually does it! [/quote]

John Bonham was fired from every band he was in, until Led Zeppelin, for being too loud. And he was quite good...

[ubit]

Not wanting to get into arguments, but I can't see how you can hit drums hard and be quiet. That's how they work. The harder you hit them , the louder they sound and vice versa.

[Dad3353]

[quote name='ubit' timestamp='1445339782' post='2890640']
Not wanting to get into arguments, but I can't see how you can hit drums hard and be quiet. That's how they work. The harder you hit them , the louder they sound and vice versa.
[/quote]

...but one is not supposed to 'hit' drums, but to 'play' them. It's not like chopping wood. There are also many ways to dampen drums or render them almost silent, if there is too much testosterone flowing. Why isn't the drummer at the back of a TOTP shoot deafening everyone..? It's been treated, that's why.
An anecdote..? I may..? Thank you...
We're back in the late '50s, at Southville Junior School. All of us kids were invited out into the playground for a road safety lesson from the police. Amongst other animations, we were lined up on the grass to watch a police Triumph ride past us. We were asked to judge which 'run' was the fastest. Three times he went past, firstly moderately, second with a mighty roar, the third run almost silent. No hesitation; we all judged the second run to have been the fastest. Not at all; we'd been fooled. That loud run was with a slipping clutch in 1st, the last run was in top gear, at tick-over, and was, in fact much faster than the others. We all learned, at that tender age, that one should not judge speed from the sound, but by keen and careful observation.
The moral..? Playing too loud is not, automatically, good drumming; quite the opposite. Don't be fooled into thinking that loudness = goodness. We school kids learnt that at the age of 8 or 9. Some never learn, it would seem. ([i]Sigh[/i]... )

[ubit]

[quote name='Dad3353' timestamp='1445607834' post='2892808']


...but one is not supposed to 'hit' drums, but to 'play' them. It's not like chopping wood. There are also many ways to dampen drums or render them almost silent, if there is too much testosterone flowing. Why isn't the drummer at the back of a TOTP shoot deafening everyone..? It's been treated, that's why.
An anecdote..? I may..? Thank you...
We're back in the late '50s, at Southville Junior School. All of us kids were invited out into the playground for a road safety lesson from the police. Amongst other animations, we were lined up on the grass to watch a police Triumph ride past us. We were asked to judge which 'run' was the fastest. Three times he went past, firstly moderately, second with a mighty roar, the third run almost silent. No hesitation; we all judged the second run to have been the fastest. Not at all; we'd been fooled. That loud run was with a slipping clutch in 1st, the last run was in top gear, at tick-over, and was, in fact much faster than the others. We all learned, at that tender age, that one should not judge speed from the sound, but by keen and careful observation.
The moral..? Playing too loud is not, automatically, good drumming; quite the opposite. Don't be fooled into thinking that loudness = goodness. We school kids learnt that at the age of 8 or 9. Some never learn, it would seem. ([i]Sigh[/i]... )
[/quote]

Ok, if you "play" the drums harder, they get louder and if you "play "them softly they get quieter. Doesn't really matter a jot how fast they are going!

Edited October 23, 2015 by ubit

[Dad3353]

[quote name='ubit' timestamp='1445629567' post='2893043']
Ok, if you "play" the drums harder, they get louder and if you "play "them softly they get quieter. Doesn't really matter a not how fast they are going!
[/quote]

([i]Sigh[/i] ... )

It was an anecdote, not an analogy nor allegory. I was not equating speed with volume. I was trying (unsuccessfully; sorry...) to illustrate how one's relation to loudness can be unhelpful. We equate loudness with many factors; quality drum playing is a misleading one. Yes, one's excitement builds up, the pulse races; think of all the eulogies on the 'howl' emitted by the late Vulcan bomber fly-over. Quality drums are not necessarily loud, and loud drums are not necessarily (indeed, very rarely...) quality. Apologies for any confusion occasioned.

[alexclaber]

I'd never equate loud to good on the drums. But also I would not equate loud to NOT good on the drums.

I'd rather have a good drummer who's a bit louder than ideal than a more controlled but less good drummer!

[Dad3353]

[quote name='alexclaber' timestamp='1445632144' post='2893073']
I'd never equate loud to good on the drums. But also I would not equate loud to NOT good on the drums.

I'd rather have a good drummer who's a bit louder than ideal than a more controlled but less good drummer!
[/quote]

Unable to be [i]anything but[/i] loud equates, in my book, to not good on drums. One should play as loud as the music and venue requires. A full-pelt 50Kw Disco PA would be inappropriate at most pub disco nights, or private parties. Hendrixian Woodstock rigs full-on are not suitable, either. Fine for Woodstock, of course; no problem, and the same rig turned down could be used in most locations. Our eldest (Guitar 1...) uses a Mesa Simul Class A, 2 x 90 w of Mesa valves (albeit with appropriates rack effects...) and a Mesa 4 x 12. Our Guitar 2 has a Marshall valve half stack. Our youngest, on bass, uses a Hiwatt 200w valve amp into an HH 2 x 15. My Camco drums can be as loud as any. We play garden parties, pub gigs, village fêtes, and are not asked to turn down. Our gear could break concrete, but we're not in the demolition business. 'Killing in the name of...' is not best played on nylon classical guitars and bongos, but needn't shatter window panes, either. Loud is fine in some contexts, but should not be the one trick your pony is capable of.
Then again, what would I know..? I'm only a drummer.

Edited October 23, 2015 by Dad3353

[ubit]

I know, I was being hilarious. But I stand by the fact that percussive instruments can be played any number of ways, dampened, side swiped, whatever, but if you hit them harder, they are louder. It's basic physics. I can't understand how you are making an argument of this fact


Sigh

Edited October 24, 2015 by ubit

[Jenny_Innie]

I've gone off the idea. "Maybe I've learned something" from a recent encounter.

I've learned that there are other things I can purchase.