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Happy Jack

RickenFakers

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May be of interest to somebody who likes to 'tinker'!

[url="http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Rickenbacker-bass-guitar-project_W0QQitemZ140129890043QQihZ004QQcategoryZ4713QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem"]http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Rickenbacker-bass-gu...1QQcmdZViewItem[/url]

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Well [i]that[/i] didn't last long!

Pulled within an hour of being identified here ... I'm sure the ricky Police are monitoring this thread.

:)

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[quote name='Happy Jack' post='19308' date='Jun 17 2007, 09:16 PM']Well [i]that[/i] didn't last long!

Pulled within an hour of being identified here ... I'm sure the ricky Police are monitoring this thread.

:huh:[/quote]

Think you're right. Ever felt like you're being watched? :huh:
Even though this is probably my favourite topic on this site. Starting to think that any ebay posting, is more than likely helping the Ricken-Gestapo acheive their aim in ridding the World (or at least ebay)of these evil nasty counterfeit instruments! :)
Having said that, above seller didn't help themselves by referring to Rickenb*cker in item description.

Final thought; didn't Bruce Foxton use an Ibanez copy? Don't suppose it harmed the sales of 4001 in the UK?

I'll probably receive a 'blitzkreig' after this post! :huh:

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Just to split hairs - that listing hasn't been pulled - the seller ended it early. He says it's because someone's pointed out it's not actually a real one! He wants to re-list it as a copy, presumably.

J.

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some thing i don"t understand well : what element is so prohibited on ebay ??? the word "rickenbacker" or the simple fact to sell a rickenbacker copy ? copies are not ,imho, illegal as far they're not sold "as" real ones... if its the design of the bass which is the problem, why Fender does not apply the same politic ? Rickenbacker is a little factory if i remember well, and have to look closely what happen to their products, but there are some limits... it took actually two years to got one brand new, if you order one from europe, they purely do what they want (when i ordered mine, few years ago, it took a long, long time to receive a bass which was not the one i asked !!!), they apply a virtually red-neck politic on forums, sells and spirit, so i think they would be inspired to not play such a obsessive attitude for copies...and last, i don"t think that there're so much copies available now...so...its become ridiculous...

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You're quite right about all that, Jihemt.

Rickenbacker own trademarks to all branding & all parts of the design of their instruments - body, headstock, hardware (Rickenbacker are currently putting pressure on Hipshot to cease production of their replacement bridge. Doesn't look much like the original, though, does it? :) ) and [i]apparently[/i], under US law, a trademark owner must actively pursue all visible infringements (including ones from 30 years ago) or they run the risk of losing the trademark. Rickenbacker is a small company, and wants to stay that way, so they're down on the copyists, current & past, to preserve their market share. This is according to RIC CEO John Hall - who I've actually discussed this with, via email.

There's a tiny discrepancy here, relating to the copies. The US trademark registry is a public record, and if you dig, it appears that Rickenbacker registered most of their TMs in the late 90s/early 2000s, presumably when Hall modernised the old company & formed Rickenbacker International Corp.

Which obviously means that all those 70s copies were built to that design [b]before[/b] Rickenbacker registered its ownership of the design - and it would presumably only take one manufacturer (Ibanez, for example, since they're still trading) to hold up an old 70s copy in court & say - "but look - here's one we made earlier. In 1975, to be exact" - for all of RICs trademarks to be void.

So pulling the auctions is effectively sweeping the old copies under the carpet & hiding them from public view. Sale of these things is in no way illegal, but if Ebay don't pull them when RIC request, they likely face the risk of John Hall taking them to court for facilitating the sale of counterfeit goods.

J.

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thanks for all theses details.. the other bad thing, with this attitude it to artificialy increase the value of both :: copies and real ricky.
its like a crazyness : when a thing become rare or "illegal", prices explodes. if you add the revival for all vintage looking guitars, you get the actual madness with prices. for all parts, from the whole bass to the smallest screw. Many Ebayers are selling some ricks part to part. look at the trussroad plate cover : since rickenbacker ask the original one to replace it (another way to stop copy), you will pay no more than 100 or more, usd for one...
you talk about bridges : where is the problem for rickenbacker ? first, if you look their website, there's nothing for sale : all parts are unavailable ! unless you live in front of the factory and are the best friend of one of the employee, no chance to get one !
replacements hiphsots are better (not in look i agree) than original ones, which are well known to be difficult to setup to have the right notes...
and as i said, honestly, WHO is making rickenbackers copies theses days ? chineses ? i didn't saw any.. the main copies are now 35 years old, and once again, rare..
worst thing : before this "copy war" i don't think that any company (chineses, or any country you want) really care to make copies of a brand which where a bit condidential.
now, i think they clearly see their interest ! any crappy copy (which was not the case of ibanez ones) will reach incredible prices, even if its stay only one hour on ebay...
hope i'm clear, as i don"t speak english so much... :)

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Jihemt - once again, you're right (& your English is fine - don't worry! :) ) - the price of copies being pushed up was one of the issues I wanted to discuss with John Hall & the RIC forum people - I joined up there, and asked all these questions very politely. Hall removed my post within about 10 minutes, and banned me from the board!

He is accessible & I did have an email discussion with him about some of these things - the prices & demand for copies is an unfortunate side-effect of what he says he [i]has[/i] to do to retain his trademark. I do actually have quite a lot of respect for his integrity - Gibson & Fender etc have taken the easy option & licensed their designs to overseas builders - hence Squier & Epiphone, etc.

Rickenbacker refuse to do this - they are a small, family-run (owned entirely by Hall & his wife) business, and as such maintain an exceptionally high quality standard for a mass-produced instrument. Hall is committed to keeping it this way - he's not interested in making more money by building cheaper, imported branded copies, Rickenbacker's reputation is based on its quality & exclusivity. Although this annoys me as a collector of old Jap copies - I have massive respect for his principles on this, and (grudgingly!) support him.

I'm less impressed with Hall's actions regarding the Hipshot bridge. The point is, Rickenbacker are designing, and apparently close to launching, a completely redesigned 4001/4003 bridge/tailpiece, which apparently addresses all the issues the original has - poor intonation adjustment, inflexible height adjustment, "tail lift", etc. Hipshot's bridge, which already addresses all of these issues, has been on the market for some time, at a fairly reasonable price, and has been deservedly popular. It doesn't seem to have bothered RIC up until now.

Hall has now decided, because the base plate shape is the same as the Rick original (it bears no other resemblance), that it's an infringement, and is chasing Hipshot to cease & desist. He claims that while the bridge is a well-engineered & inexpensive (compared to the original part) replacement, using the same shape footprint as the original was nothing but a cynical ploy to ensnare RIC customers by trading on a copyrighted design. He claims Hipshot could have made the bridge any shape and it would have been just as efficient.

While the last point is in some way true, one can't help thinking that the fact that RIC is intending to launch a redesigned bridge, which is likely to bear rather more relation to the modern Hipshot design, than the current 50s/60s era Rick bridge, means he wants the competition out of the way. RIC have already stated that their new product will be "expensive" and will be dearer than the current price for the Hipshot.

J.

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great informations there, thanks again... from our point of vue, i mean from France (lol) Rickenbacker is saw as a big company, such as Fender, and many players here don't understand some specificities.. i lived few years in USA and i saw that it was just a family story. so i understand well some decisions. but some others are quite stupid or too paranoid...btw, i always and still really love theses basses, both for shape and sounds..they ARE the rock'n'roll for me, ..thats why i feel sad when i see theses purists attitudes...
i'm not a collector, even if i got some interesting basses in the past (EKO, HOFNER...) and theses japaneses ricky are a real surprise : i only knew my ibanez 2388b...Shaftesbury or Greco are really unknown here.. i really think that theses basses are under rated : quality is really good, particulary the lutherie work for the necktrough ones...
it seem to be very difficult to find one now. prices are very high and are close to real ricks ! thats why i said that HAll did a mistake...
oh : the seller of the Shaftesbury who had been pulled of ebay just sent me an email to ask i i was interested in its bass ! it remind me the last story i got on ebay... so i guess its the second effect of all what we said : copies are rare and "illegal" so, swindlers are now in the place...

Edited by jihemt

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[quote name='Bassassin' post='15816' date='Jun 11 2007, 07:13 PM']Dunno why, but most of the old copies came in that unconvincing yellowy-pink fireglo, or maple. The only ones I can think of which were available in black were Ibanez. You could look out for a later Ibanez copy, which had "proper" Rick-style pickups rather than humbuckers - but they're even rarer than the type you already have.

A guy who used to post on BW/BT (not sure if he came to ChaseBat) had a left-handed one.

J.[/quote]

That'll be me - and here it is - grubby finger prints and all;



more pics here;

[url="http://www.pbase.com/deksawyer/ibanez_rickenbacker"]http://www.pbase.com/deksawyer/ibanez_rickenbacker[/url]

I've been here since the start but just lurk these days............

D.

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And that lefty Ibanez was made in Dec '76. A fair old age.

I just need to convince myself I don't want another one.....

D.

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very nice bass, congrat ! i really love the "jetglo" color, very classy... btw, the mapleglo that ibanez used (mine is like that) is my second choice for colors, even for real ricks... Fireglo is too flashy imho...

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Here's another current copy:

[url="http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ih=007&sspagename=STRK%3AMEWA%3AIT&viewitem=&item=170123959999&rd=1&rd=1"]http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?Vie...p;rd=1&rd=1[/url]

Looks like this is a re-badged Shine RK2000NT:

[url="http://www.saein.co.kr/2007/bass/rk2000nt.php"]http://www.saein.co.kr/2007/bass/rk2000nt.php[/url]

- and I really think the prices for these Korean/Chinese cheapos are being pushed up by the same factors affecting the vintage copies on Ebay. This one looks not bad (Seymour Dunks, decent looking bridge, through neck) - but £400? :) 'Avin' a larf. And wtf is that headstock meant to be?

J.

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:) :huh: :huh:
what strange looking basses...it looks like a Frankenstein creature : the body from a guy with the head of another one !
and the ugly blend of the triangulars inlays with points dots ??
i would be curious the hear the sound of theses "things"
btw, price are another joke...(600 euros !)

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An Arsebiter, probably Matsumoku:

[url="http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ih=020&sspagename=STRK%3AMEWA%3AIT&viewitem=&item=300124090915&rd=1&rd=1"]http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?Vie...p;rd=1&rd=1[/url]

...being sold by Oxfam. So just how much of a [email protected] are you willing to be, Mr. Hall?


And interesting to see what these retail for in the Land Of The Rising Sun - a 4001S style Greco at Ishibashi:

[url="http://www.ishibashi.co.jp/u_box/ubox.cgi?T=syosai&sline=674&print=1&keys2=yokohama%40ishibashi%2Eco%2Ejp&tid=list3"]http://www.ishibashi.co.jp/u_box/ubox.cgi?...p&tid=list3[/url]

69,800 yen is £283. :)


J.

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Am I missing something here? That last link seems to be to an acoustic 6 string!

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[quote name='KevB' post='23056' date='Jun 25 2007, 03:47 PM']Am I missing something here? That last link seems to be to an acoustic 6 string![/quote]

It was a Rick copy this morning, but not any more it seems...

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[quote name='KevB' post='23056' date='Jun 25 2007, 02:47 PM']Am I missing something here? That last link seems to be to an acoustic 6 string![/quote]

It's to fool the Ric police

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[quote name='Bassassin' date='Jun 25 2007, 10:15 AM' post='22905']
An Arsebiter, probably Matsumoku:

[url="http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ih=020&sspagename=STRK%3AMEWA%3AIT&viewitem=&item=300124090915&rd=1&rd=1"]http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?Vie...p;rd=1&rd=1[/url]

...being sold by Oxfam. So just how much of a [email protected] are you willing to be, Mr. Hall?
And interesting to see what these retail for in the Land Of The Rising Sun - a 4001S style Greco at Ishibashi:

I wonder how much that will go for, maybe the guy thats selling it will get more than thought he would,

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something that could be interesting :
[url="http://cgi.ebay.fr/Ibanez-Greco-Bass-vintage-70s_W0QQitemZ300123428318QQihZ020QQcategoryZ23300QQtcZphotoQQcmdZViewItem"]http://cgi.ebay.fr/Ibanez-Greco-Bass-vinta...oQQcmdZViewItem[/url]

but a bit expensive... some parts missing, not in very good condition too..

Edited by jihemt

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[quote name='KevB' post='23056' date='Jun 25 2007, 03:47 PM']Am I missing something here? That last link seems to be to an acoustic 6 string![/quote]
How odd! I'll see if I can find the proper link again!

Edit: here it is:

[url="http://www.ishibashi.co.jp/u_box/ubox.cgi?T=syosai&sline=676&print=1&keys2=yokohama%40ishibashi%2Eco%2Ejp&tid=list3"]http://www.ishibashi.co.jp/u_box/ubox.cgi?...p&tid=list3[/url]

Given that it'll probably turn into an ad for a petrol strimmer in an hour or two, here's the page with the link too. It's about half way down:

[url="http://www.ishibashi.co.jp/u_box/ubox.cgi?T=gazo&word=2&or8=32&key=&equal1=&value5=&select5=down&print=40"]http://www.ishibashi.co.jp/u_box/ubox.cgi?...wn&print=40[/url]

J.

Edited by Bassassin

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Here's a Gibsonbacker 4005 that went on ebay for over a grand. Its called a Gb because of the mudbucker and mini humbucker installed.

[url="http://www.hollowbodybass.com/"]http://www.hollowbodybass.com/[/url]

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[quote name='jihemt' post='23098' date='Jun 25 2007, 05:02 PM']something that could be interesting :
[url="http://cgi.ebay.fr/Ibanez-Greco-Bass-vintage-70s_W0QQitemZ300123428318QQihZ020QQcategoryZ23300QQtcZphotoQQcmdZViewItem"]http://cgi.ebay.fr/Ibanez-Greco-Bass-vinta...oQQcmdZViewItem[/url]

but a bit expensive... some parts missing, not in very good condition too..[/quote]

I wonder why he advertises on French eBay ... he's a German dealer, and the bass is in Germany.

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What's this one Jon?

[url="http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ih=010&sspagename=STRK%3AMEWA%3AIT&viewitem=&item=200122858256&rd=1&rd=1"]http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?Vie...p;rd=1&rd=1[/url]

Rather a nice one, if the dodgy photo is anything to go by.

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He's got it on his [url="http://www.nortonbassplace.com/3bassguitarsforsale.htm"]website[/url] for £485

Pete.

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