Count Bassy Posted November 23, 2014 Share Posted November 23, 2014 [size=4]Just come across this one. Apologies if it's already been posted:[/size] [size=4]Particularly poignant to me at the moment as I was down at the Fleece in Bristol on Wednesday, which is facing this sort of problem.[/size] [size=4]Wording of the petition:[/size] [size=4]"[/size] [size=4][b]Introduce mandatory noise complaint waivers for anyone who buys or rents a property within close distance of a music venue[/b][/size] [size=4]Responsible department: Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs[/size] [size=4]There are innumerate cases of people knowingly moving within close proximity of live music venues, only to try to have their licenses revoked or have them closed completely when they take exception to the noise.[/size] [size=4]It is extremely detrimental to the UK's entertainment industry, particularly on a grassroots level, when all the music venues start disappearing. Music is a key British export and to endanger our strong national artist community is to endanger a key British industry.[/size] [size=4]As such, anyone who wishes to buy or rent a property within a determined distance of a music venue should have to read and sign legislature that waives their right to complain about the noise from the nearby venue. If they do not wish to be bothered by something that was a fixture of the community long before they arrived, they should not move there in the first place.[/size] [size=4]"[/size] [size=4][color=#231F20][font=arial][size=4]And you can sign it here if you want to:[/size][/font][/color][/size] [size=5][color=#231F20][font=arial][color=#222222][url="http://epetitions.direct.gov.uk/petitions/70689"]http://epetitions.di...petitions/70689[/url][/color][/font][/color][/size] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TimR Posted November 23, 2014 Share Posted November 23, 2014 I sometime wonder what the people who start these petitions are thinking. There's a big difference between a band in a pub and a stadium rock event. If bands are unable to recognise this then they're going to lose venues to play in. We play in a couple of venues where the landlord has had complaints and knows how loud we can play before causing a nuisance in neighbouring properties. Generally if bands refuse to turn down they're not asked back. Bands are getting louder and louder. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Count Bassy Posted November 23, 2014 Author Share Posted November 23, 2014 Well actually I agree with the petition. If you read the words it's not about pubs and bands getting too noisy, but about people who move into an area knowing that such a venue exists, and then complaining about it (and generally getting their way). If a non music venue suddenly starts putting on load music in an area then that is a different thing, and my sympathies would be with the resident. So I have signed it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TimR Posted November 23, 2014 Share Posted November 23, 2014 (edited) So you could move next to a pub that does occasional light jazz on a Sunday lunchtime. The landlord changes and the new landlord decides to have mid week heavy rock bands playing until midnight? An extreme example maybe but bands are getting louder. It's all about what constitutes a nuisance. Good luck in trying to introduce a law that takes away people's rights. Think about unintended consequences. . Edited November 23, 2014 by TimR Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TimR Posted November 23, 2014 Share Posted November 23, 2014 This is a more realistic way forward. http://mobile.morningadvertiser.co.uk/General-News/Noise-law-changes-urged-to-save-live-music-pubs#.VHJUstkgGc0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
taunton-hobbit Posted November 23, 2014 Share Posted November 23, 2014 I lived for a while close to Butlins (Minehead)....the local housing estate (built on ex-Butlin land) had it in their leases that Butlins could do what it ruddy-well wanted to. To be fair, the noise from the venue stopped on the stroke of midnight....that didn't help much with the rock concerts on Sunday afternoons.......... . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Arkadin Posted November 23, 2014 Share Posted November 23, 2014 (edited) Well I have to say this happened at the Forum in Kentish Town. Opposite there used to be a pub. It's now been redeveloped as new flats. Every time I come out of a gig there now the security are trying to shoo you away. Being a reasonable fella I asked why they were doing this, seeing as I was now out of the venue an on a public highway and they told me they'd had complaints from the new flats opposite so were trying to disperse crowds as quickly as possible so as not to get who knows what sort of abatement orders. I'm sorry but the Forum has been there for a heck of a long time and those flats haven't. You know what you're moving into in a scenario like that. Edited November 24, 2014 by Mr Arkadin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Count Bassy Posted November 24, 2014 Author Share Posted November 24, 2014 (edited) [quote name='TimR' timestamp='1416778169' post='2613558'] So you could move next to a pub that does occasional light jazz on a Sunday lunchtime. The landlord changes and the new landlord decides to have mid week heavy rock bands playing until midnight? An extreme example maybe but bands are getting louder. It's all about what constitutes a nuisance. Good luck in trying to introduce a law that takes away people's rights. Think about unintended consequences. . [/quote] If you read the second paragraph of my second post I think you'll see that I have already covered that situation. And as for people's rights: What about peoples rights to continue with a business that they have grown over many years, only to be shut down by someone moving into the locality and complaining? Edited November 24, 2014 by Count Bassy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Count Bassy Posted November 24, 2014 Author Share Posted November 24, 2014 [quote name='TimR' timestamp='1416779076' post='2613573'] This is a more realistic way forward. [url="http://mobile.morningadvertiser.co.uk/General-News/Noise-law-changes-urged-to-save-live-music-pubs#.VHJUstkgGc0"]http://mobile.mornin...bs#.VHJUstkgGc0[/url] [/quote] I have no argument with anything in that article and had already signed the "agent of change" petition that is doing the rounds. Surely the petition I mentioned in the first post (which I have absolutely nothing to do with, other than having signed it), is basically the same as the agent of change principle which is mentioned in the article (and you seem to think is OK). I.e. if someone moves into a noisy area then they are the agent of change and have no right to complain about a pre-existing situation. I don't see how you can dismiss one yet agree with the other. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TimR Posted November 24, 2014 Share Posted November 24, 2014 [quote name='Count Bassy' timestamp='1416789235' post='2613674'] If you read the second paragraph of my second post I think you'll see that I have already covered that situation. [/quote] You've covered the situation where no music was being played. There are plenty of situations where people have lived next to pubs for years with no issues, but the music has got louder and the people leaving have got rowdier. Most people will put up with an acceptable level of noise. The proposal would take away someone's right to complain that the noise has become unacceptable. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Count Bassy Posted November 24, 2014 Author Share Posted November 24, 2014 [quote name='taunton-hobbit' timestamp='1416780908' post='2613595'] I lived for a while close to Butlins (Minehead)....the local housing estate (built on ex-Butlin land) had it in their leases that Butlins could do what it ruddy-well wanted to. To be fair, the noise from the venue stopped on the stroke of midnight....that didn't help much with the rock concerts on Sunday afternoons.......... . [/quote] So people moved in knowing the situation, and thus have no moral right to complain. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Count Bassy Posted November 24, 2014 Author Share Posted November 24, 2014 (edited) [quote name='Mr Arkadin' timestamp='1416781059' post='2613597'] Well I have to say this happened at the Foum in Kentish Town. Opposite there used to be a pub. It's now been redeveloped as new flats. Every time I come out of a gig there now the security are trying to shoo you away. Being a reasonable fella I asked why they were doing this, seeing as I was now out of the venue an on a public highway and they told me they'd had complaints from the new flats opposite so were trying to disperse crowds as quickly as possible so as not to get who knows what sort of abatement orders. I'm sorry but the Forum has been there for a heck of a long time and those flats haven't. You know what you're moving into in a scenario like that. [/quote] Yep, and the Fleece in Bristol [b]was[/b] facing the same situation, but Bristol council have adopted the agent of change principal, so the flat developers have to implement the sound proofing required. This is good news which I hadn't realised this until I read the article that TimR linked to. Edited November 24, 2014 by Count Bassy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Count Bassy Posted November 24, 2014 Author Share Posted November 24, 2014 [quote name='TimR' timestamp='1416789758' post='2613679'] You've covered the situation where no music was being played. There are plenty of situations where people have lived next to pubs for years with no issues, but the music has got louder and the people leaving have got rowdier. Most people will put up with an acceptable level of noise. The proposal would take away someone's right to complain that the noise has become unacceptable. [/quote] Well, I'm sure that the starters of this petition probably meant to allow for that situation, but I agree that they possibly missed something in it's wording. However the point of the petition is to get the situation debated in parliament (which, I believe, the Gov are obliged to do if it gets 100,000 signatures). Obviously any legislation it might lead to is going to be more than a few hundred words long, and thus contain far more detail. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shockwave Posted November 24, 2014 Share Posted November 24, 2014 [quote name='TimR' timestamp='1416778169' post='2613558'] An extreme example maybe but bands are getting louder. [/quote] Proof? Bands in my experience are getting quieter. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skej21 Posted November 24, 2014 Share Posted November 24, 2014 (edited) Poorly worded waiver if you ask me. It needs to be fair for all parties. Waiving your right to complain about noise from the venue means that you can't even complain when the noise is not music related (or uncontrolled fighting) and opens up the possibility of landlords who are benefitting from the noise to abuse the clear loopholes in the waiver to keep the punters happy. Having set times at which noise can occur (in keeping with current legislation), what kind of noise and at what miaximum level should be specified so that it is clear when a complaint can be dismissed or taken seriously. That would make things more amicable for the venue, residents and the poor sods who have to get involved to sort it out. I'm all for change but it needs to be presented properly from the start or it just doesn't look like it should be taken seriously. Edited November 24, 2014 by skej21 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Count Bassy Posted November 24, 2014 Author Share Posted November 24, 2014 [quote name='skej21' timestamp='1416819090' post='2613782'] Poorly worded waiver if you ask me. It needs to be fair for all parties. Waiving your right to complain about noise from the venue means that you can't even complain when the noise is not music related (or uncontrolled fighting) and opens up the possibility of landlords who are benefitting from the noise to abuse the clear loopholes in the waiver to keep the punters happy. Having set times at which noise can occur (in keeping with current legislation), what kind of noise and at what miaximum level should be specified so that it is clear when a complaint can be dismissed or taken seriously. That would make things more amicable for the venue, residents and the poor sods who have to get involved to sort it out. I'm all for change but it needs to be presented properly from the start or it just doesn't look like it should be taken seriously. [/quote] I refer the honorable member to the answer I gave earlier. I.e. as I see it, this is a petition to get things moving and debated. Any legislation that it leads to will obviously take account of the concerns you raise. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
karlfer Posted November 24, 2014 Share Posted November 24, 2014 This problem has been exacerbated by the change in licensing laws. In the past, a pub shut at 11pm, the band finished at 11pm ish. Now, some of the pubs we do, don't want you on until 11pm because folk come in later. No, I don't know what the answer is really, but I certainly hear of more landlords getting complaints now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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