Looking for self build 1X15 cab

[stevie]

[quote name='billynoband' post='241877' date='Jul 17 2008, 04:33 PM']If you put numbers in Winsd you get something big enough to hang your wifes clothes in. Anyone else noticed that. [/quote]

You have to know what you want your system to do. If you let winsd dictate cabinet size, it will suggest standard alignments, which aren't necessarily what you want.

[stevie]

[quote name='billynoband' post='241877' date='Jul 17 2008, 04:33 PM']If you put numbers in Winsd you get something big enough to hang your wifes clothes in. Anyone else noticed that. [/quote]

Also, - winsd doesn't model floor reinforcement nor (as far as I can remember) the cabinet response step. The curve you get in winsd is actually nothing like real life.

[alexclaber]

[quote name='stevie' post='241922' date='Jul 17 2008, 05:03 PM']The 3015 doesn’t have twice the useable bandwidth – look at the JBL spec sheet - nor twice the displacement limited power input capacity for that matter. It is lighter though (doh!), so you got that right.

The 3015 may be the bee's knees, especially at its dollar price, but that doesn't detract from the fact that the JBL is a 2226H is still a superb driver.[/quote]

The 3015 has significantly greater treble response than the JBL. The 3015LF (note LF) has 60% greater displacement limited power input capacity - 9.6mm Xmax vs 7.2mm. The JBL costs more than twice as much as either and weighs 2.5 times as much.

[quote name='stevie' post='241933' date='Jul 17 2008, 05:18 PM']Also, - winsd doesn't model floor reinforcement nor (as far as I can remember) the cabinet response step. The curve you get in winsd is actually nothing like real life.[/quote]

Floor reinforcement is simply half-space response, why would you need to model it? The baffle step is rarely of concern in the bass region (which is what T/S modelling is for).

Alex

[stevie]

[quote name='alexclaber' post='241879' date='Jul 17 2008, 04:34 PM']The main problem I've had with most non-Eminence woofer designs is that they are either designed as mid-bass or midrange drivers for PA and thus Xmax and Qts are too low or Fs too high so they can't handle or create the bottom or they're designed as PA subwoofers and the problem is reversed with a resultant loss of sensitivity and midrange output.

If you can direct me to a better 15" for bass guitar, or even a good 10" or 12", I'd be very interested to see.[/quote]

You're right: it’s difficult to design a long excursion woofer that performs well in the midrange, but you’re wrong if you think Eminence has a solution in the Kappalite. Why do you think they have two versions?

The JBL 2226H, on the other hand, pulls off the trick of having long excursion, high power handling and good quality extended midrange.

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

[quote name='stevie' post='244655' date='Jul 21 2008, 01:19 PM']The JBL 2226H... good quality extended midrange.[/quote]
On-axis plots may give that indication, but off-axis response is what matters. At 45 degrees off-axis the 2226 drops like a stone above 1kHz, and is down (and out as it were) by 16dB at 1.5kHz.

[quote]I checked, and the 2226H is actually a current model.[/quote]Still in production, but hardly current. The telling point is that JBL no longer uses it in their current pro-sound cabinet offerings. JBLs top of the line drivers have been neo for nigh on a decade, but they are not sold as separate components.

[stevie]

[quote name='Bill Fitzmaurice' post='244699' date='Jul 21 2008, 07:03 PM']On-axis plots may give that indication, but off-axis response is what matters. At 45 degrees off-axis the 2226 drops like a stone above 1kHz, and is down (and out as it were) by 16dB at 1.5kHz.[/quote]

The off-axis performance of a 2226H is a function of its diameter. It is no better or worse (and its response doesn’t drop off any faster) than any other 15 inch driver.

Just a few messages ago you were praising the superior high frequency extension of the Eminence 3015. Now you are telling us that the JBL’s midrange extension is irrelevant because its response – like every other 15-inch speaker - drops off above 1kHz. If you serve up two completely contradictory statements like this, why should anyone believe either?

[stevie]

[quote name='Bill Fitzmaurice' post='244699' date='Jul 21 2008, 07:03 PM']Still in production, but hardly current. The telling point is that JBL no longer uses it in their current pro-sound cabinet offerings. JBLs top of the line drivers have been neo for nigh on a decade, but they are not sold as separate components.[/quote]

JBL uses the 2226 in its current SR-X series and in its Cinema loudspeakers - both pro-sound cabinet offerings. Why don't you check your assertions before serving them up to us as facts?

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

[quote name='stevie' post='244815' date='Jul 21 2008, 04:12 PM']The off-axis performance of a 2226H is a function of its diameter. It is no better or worse (and its response doesn’t drop off any faster) than any other 15 inch driver.[/quote]Off-axis response as a function of cone diameter assumes that the cone operates as a single pistonic radiator. In the case of extended range musical instrument and pro-sound drivers the dome acts as an independant midrange radiator, and the response both on and off-axis is not a function of cone diameter alone.
[quote]JBL uses the 2226 in its current SR-X series[/quote]The SRX715 and SRX725 have used the 2256 neo magnet woofer since 2004.

[redstriper]

This post is very interesting indeed and I really wish I could have 3 identical cabinets, each loaded with one of the three different drivers under recent discussion to compare their sound when played with the same bass and amp on identical settings.

If that were possible I wonder what would be the most noticeable differences in audio quality, in terms of volume, depth and clarity and forgetting weight or price considerations?

I am also considering the purchase of a replacement driver and would like to hear from people who have actually heard all 3 in the flesh or from anyone who believes they know of an even better 15" driver for bass guitar.

Thanks in anticipation.

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

[quote name='redstriper' post='244949' date='Jul 21 2008, 06:44 PM']would like to hear from people who have actually heard all 3 in the flesh[/quote]
I've heard those and perhaps 100 more fifteens over a 40 year span. IMO for a single driver cab the 3015 is unexcelled. The 3015LF is even better in extension and power handling but should be used along with a midrange driver, although for raggae and dub one might get along without it.

Edited July 22, 2008 by Bill Fitzmaurice

[alexclaber]

[quote name='Bill Fitzmaurice' post='244865' date='Jul 21 2008, 10:03 PM']Off-axis response as a function of cone diameter assumes that the cone operates as a single pistonic radiator. In the case of extended range musical instrument and pro-sound drivers the dome acts as an independant midrange radiator, and the response both on and off-axis is not a function of cone diameter alone.[/quote]

To expand on that, if you compare the cones of the 3015 and 3015LF you see that the LF has a larger dustcap and a straighter sided cone making it more rigid, whilst the 3015 has a smaller dustcap, curved sided cone, and concentric ribbing around the cone, all of which allow the cone to flex and allows more midrange and treble output by letting the voice coil act on a progressively smaller moving mass as the frequency goes higher. And as this smaller moving mass is due to a progressively smaller radiating area you therefore get decent off-axis response.

I remain amazed by what a simple 3015 cab can do for bass guitar - loud, clean, clear, punchy, deep enough, and (if you build the cab right) incredibly light. Even with the recent price rises it remains far more speaker for the money than anything else I've seen.

Alex

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

[quote name='alexclaber' post='245200' date='Jul 22 2008, 06:09 AM']curved sided cone, and concentric ribbing around the cone, all of which allow the cone to flex

Alex[/quote]Those refinements are intended to make the cone stiffer, to reduce flex and along with it break-up. So doing allows a lighter cone material, and the benefits of same, which includes a higher response.
The ribbing is similar in look, but not function, to Altec bi-flex drivers, which incorporated a surround in the cone that allowed more independance between a stiffer/lighter inner cone and softer/heavier outer cone.

[stevie]

[quote name='Bill Fitzmaurice' post='244865' date='Jul 21 2008, 10:03 PM']The SRX715 and SRX725 have used the 2256 neo magnet woofer since 2004.[/quote]

I don’t know why you’ve even come back to me on this one: the fact that you have ignored and snipped my mention of the Cinema Series shows you know you are wrong.

The SRX series is shown using the 2226H on the current JBL Pro website. [url="http://www.jblpro.com/pages/mi/srx/srx.htm"]http://www.jblpro.com/pages/mi/srx/srx.htm[/url] They also seem to be on sale at retail outlets. If my information is wrong, blame JBL. Not that it matters. It only takes a single exception to disprove your blanket statement that the 2226 isn't used in current JBL prosound systems.

However, for the sake of completeness, the 2008 JBL catalogue shows that the 2226H is used in the following systems at least. There may well be more, but my time for this kind of nonsense is limited.

Variable Line Array Series PD5125
VLA301
VLA601
VLA901

Precision Directivity Series
PD5125

Cinema Series
3631
5672
5674
3678
4675

- and not in the catalogue but listed on the website:

Dance Club Series
Dance 3

Permanent Install Products
CST51DQ

So, I humbly submit that the 2226H is indeed current and is indeed used in JBL’s current prosound offerings - although I’m not sure what proving it does. After all, a 4-year old Mercedes S-Class is always going to be a better quality car than a brand new Ford focus.

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

[quote name='stevie' post='245674' date='Jul 22 2008, 03:52 PM']The SRX series is shown using the 2226H on the current JBL Pro website. [url="http://www.jblpro.com/pages/mi/srx/srx.htm"]http://www.jblpro.com/pages/mi/srx/srx.htm[/url][/quote]
Check the publication date on that obsolete link. As opposed to this one:
[url="http://www2.jblpro.com/catalog/general/ProductFamily.aspx?FId=10&MID=3"]http://www2.jblpro.com/catalog/general/Pro...Id=10&MID=3[/url]

Also consider getting a life.

[stevie]

[quote name='Bill Fitzmaurice' post='245824' date='Jul 23 2008, 04:04 AM']Check the publication date on that obsolete link. As opposed to this one:
[url="http://www2.jblpro.com/catalog/general/ProductFamily.aspx?FId=10&MID=3"]http://www2.jblpro.com/catalog/general/Pro...Id=10&MID=3[/url][/quote]

I already conceded the point that the SRX series uses neos. That hardly backs up your claim that JBL does not use the 2226H in its current prosound offerings though, does it?

[quote name='Bill Fitzmaurice' post='245824' date='Jul 23 2008, 04:04 AM']Also consider getting a life. [/quote]

I’m not the nitpicker here, if you haven’t noticed. I didn’t start this sub-thread - you did. And you are the one keeping it going, even though you were proved wrong some time ago and you have absolutely nothing useful to say. You are also the one introducing yawn-inducing irrelevancies to the discussion, such as the 45 degree off-axis response of 15-inch speakers, and navel-gazing observations like how the dome on a PA speaker acts as an independent radiator.

You have an interesting way of dealing with being wrong. You introduce irrelevances and then resort to insults.

[stevie]

[quote name='Bill Fitzmaurice' post='244865' date='Jul 21 2008, 10:03 PM']Off-axis response as a function of cone diameter assumes that the cone operates as a single pistonic radiator. In the case of extended range musical instrument and pro-sound drivers the dome acts as an independant midrange radiator, and the response both on and off-axis is not a function of cone diameter alone.[/quote]

I’ve got to hand it to you, Bill. Anyone else caught with their pants down using two completely contradictory arguments to prove the same point would have the good grace to hold their hands up and say, “OK, what I really meant was....”. Not you! You cannot resist disappearing up a blind alley and trying to blind us with science – single pistonic radiator indeed. Lol! You’ll be telling me the Eminence has a whizzer cone next! Hang on, that *is* what you are saying!

I read a doctoral thesis on drive unit simulation some time back (I’m sure I could find a reference) where the candidate tested drive units to see if they followed the expected theory for off-axis rollof. They did, except that there was sometimes a small amount of extra off-axis output as a result of cone breakup. As neither of the Eminences have particularly well behaved cones (to put it mildly), we might expect a little bit of that.

However, I notice Eminence doesn’t publish any off-axis frequency response curves. So, the onus is on you to prove the point really, if you can. Eminence certainly doesn’t claim any magic whizzer properties for their Kappalite cones.

I have here a series of tests on 12” drivers, 14 in all, carried out with MLSSA using different makes and types of driver, mostly PA, but some hi-fi. With only one exception, they drop 6dB thirty degrees off axis between 1 and 2kHz. As you would expect.

But enough of that. If you are reduced to claiming that one 15” driver is better than another on the basis of its 45 degree off-axis response above 1kHz, you have already lost the argument - because it really doesn’t matter.

[Machines]

Gentlemen. You both appear to have lost the plot and seem to be using this thread as a method to score points from each other. I suggest if you wish your debate this further, that you take it to PM, as you have veered off-topic at the expense of answering the original posters question.

[stevie]

[quote name='Machines' post='245907' date='Jul 23 2008, 10:51 AM']Gentlemen. You both appear to have lost the plot and seem to be using this thread as a method to score points from each other. I suggest if you wish your debate this further, that you take it to PM, as you have veered off-topic at the expense of answering the original posters question.[/quote]

I couldn't agree more.

[cheddatom]

Lol, no I want the last word!!!

[johnnylager]

^^

[lowhand_mike]

aw and it was just getting interesting

how much of this off axis stuff would we actually hear? or is this more based on the ability of the driver to produce a full sound without problems?




:ph34r: :brow:

[stevie]

[quote name='cheddatom' post='245976' date='Jul 23 2008, 11:58 AM']Lol, no I want the last word!!![/quote]

And you shall have it, sir. :-)

[Machines]

Not if I answer last and lock it.

But i'm not that immature.

I think.

[cheddatom]

[quote name='stevie' post='245993' date='Jul 23 2008, 12:14 PM']And you shall have it, sir. :-)[/quote]

Sorry, your brand of highly intelligent ironic humour is lost on me!

[stevie]

[quote name='cheddatom' post='246001' date='Jul 23 2008, 12:18 PM']Sorry, your brand of highly intelligent ironic humour is lost on me![/quote]

I much prefer a pie in the face myself, too. At least you know where you are.