"Hey man, can you send me the tabs of this?"

[MiltyG565]

[quote name='SpaceChick' timestamp='1363901927' post='2019329']
But the force is strong with me

I think having been classically trained in my youth has helped me as an adult joining the wonderful world of being a bassist?
[/quote]

Possibly. Knowing theory certainly makes it a lot easier than having to try and figure it all out from scratch.

[Myke]

[quote name='MiltyG565' timestamp='1363901862' post='2019327']
Putting words in my mouth. That's not what i said at all, and you know it.
[/quote]

Okay.. Just reread that, may have got the wrong end of the stick.

[quote name='MiltyG565' timestamp='1363901862' post='2019327']
CURSES!
[/quote]

[MiltyG565]

[quote name='Myke' timestamp='1363902471' post='2019344']
Okay.. Just reread that, may have got the wrong end of the stick.




[/quote]

Is your avatar an Ibanez Ergodyne?

[Dad3353]

[quote name='MiltyG565' timestamp='1363888329' post='2019019']...Obviously, learning theory comes when you start learning a classical instrument, because it's fairly useless without that knowledge...
...you need to know the theory...[/quote]

Good evening, Milty...

I may have mis-judged your intentions here, but, as I read this, I would be inclined to disagree. 'Playing' an instrument, 'classical' or other, involves, imho no necessity to study theory. I would suggest that it helps, but is not necessary. 'Composing' is a very different affair; those that wish to succeed in symphonic works would best have a pretty solid grasp of theory (or be very lucky in their choice of notes, perhaps..?).
Reading sheet music has little to do with music theory, I think. Understanding music theory does not imply reading skills, either.
Just my tuppence-worth; no malice intended.

[Myke]

[quote name='MiltyG565' timestamp='1363902575' post='2019349']
Is your avatar an Ibanez Ergodyne?
[/quote]

Nopes it my Yamaha TRB5. Do you like my attempt at fancy photography?

[MiltyG565]

[quote name='Dad3353' timestamp='1363902623' post='2019353']
Good evening, Milty...

I may have mis-judged your intentions here, but, as I read this, I would be inclined to disagree. 'Playing' an instrument, 'classical' or other, involves, imho no necessity to study theory. I would suggest that it helps, but is not necessary. 'Composing' is a very different affair; those that wish to succeed in symphonic works would best have a pretty solid grasp of theory (or be very lucky in their choice of notes, perhaps..?).
Reading sheet music has little to do with music theory, I think. Understanding music theory does not imply reading skills, either.
Just my tuppence-worth; no malice intended.
[/quote]

Of course you can learn a classical instrument without learning theory. I've met piano players who just learned by ear, but they weren't professional players, they just played a couple of tunes at parties or whatever. It's my understand that when you start learning piano, you will be taught scales and other theory that a lot of bass or guitar teachers just ignore. Classical music is very much based in "This is what we do, and we do it this way, so do it this way" where as a lot of rock was born from "Oh, what happens if i do this?".


[quote name='Myke' timestamp='1363902856' post='2019364']
Nopes it my Yamaha TRB5. Do you like my attempt at fancy photography?
[/quote]

It is literally sexy.

[Myke]

[quote name='MiltyG565' timestamp='1363902997' post='2019370']
It's my understand that when you start learning piano, you will be taught scales and other theory that a lot of bass or guitar teachers just ignore.
[/quote]

This may be just me but when I first started getting lessons 2 years ago, the first thing I learnt was scales and other theory bits. This may be because it was part of a music course tho..

[quote name='MiltyG565' timestamp='1363902997' post='2019370']
It is literally sexy.
[/quote]

Why thank you

[MiltyG565]

[quote name='Myke' timestamp='1363903141' post='2019380']
This may be just me but when I first started getting lessons 2 years ago, the first thing I learnt was scales and other theory bits. This may be because it was part of a music course tho..
[/quote]

That's probably why. I didn't learn scales for a long time. I started learning music theory a while ago, but had to stop getting the lessons because of the cost, but my bass teacher started teaching me scales because we were looking at grades. Still only at the very basic levels of theory though.

[Dad3353]

...but that was my point; badly made, I suppose. Learning scales and such is not, in my view, music theory. Maybe my definitions are different..? To play Bach, rote would suffice. To understand Bach (whether one can play it or not...) requires a knowledge of theory. I'm not going to fight long to defend my corner, though. You may be right.

[MiltyG565]

[quote name='Dad3353' timestamp='1363903575' post='2019396']
...but that was my point; badly made, I suppose. Learning scales and such is not, in my view, music theory. Maybe my definitions are different..? To play Bach, rote would suffice. To understand Bach (whether one can play it or not...) requires a knowledge of theory. I'm not going to fight long to defend my corner, though. You may be right.
[/quote]

So then what you are saying really is that even the small amount of theory that a lot of guitarists and bassists know compared to most classical musicians, you wouldn't even consider as theory?

[BassTractor]

[quote name='SpaceChick' timestamp='1363901927' post='2019329']
I think having been classically trained in my youth has helped me as an adult joining the wonderful world of being a bassist?
[/quote]

I'm still hoping to learn in the nearest possible future that you are right in this respect.


[quote name='MiltyG565' timestamp='1363902997' post='2019370']
It's my understand that when you start learning piano, you will be taught scales and other theory that a lot of bass or guitar teachers just ignore. Classical music is very much based in "This is what we do, and we do it this way, so do it this way" where as a lot of rock was born from "Oh, what happens if i do this?"
[/quote]

I get the feeling I understand where you're coming from, but also get the sense that you may have a slightly erronous idea about classical music and its theory.
Rock music for a large part (its traditional part) is theoretically very close to rather old classical music or even older "street music" as it was called in my theoretical days. The melody lines, the harmonic tensions and their resolvements, the rhythmic content can often be found in late Medieval music or early Romantic music for example.

This is not to say rock has not contributed with its own inventions - just to relate the theory bit of it to pre-existing music.

This link then means that the same powers that governed that particular classical music back then also to quite some degree govern the rock music that is traditional enough, and teachers would educate pupils the same theory.

At a higher level of education, these things start to get more separated. Theory in a heavy metal class for example, would incorporate knowledge about fuzz boxes generating the need to change V7 chords to V7maj chords, whilst the chordal content in jazz certainly can't be taught in theory classes on even late Romantic music.


best,
bert

Edited March 21, 2013 by BassTractor

[discreet]

[size=4][quote name='MiltyG565' timestamp='1363902997' post='2019370']It is literally sexy.[/quote][quote name='Myke' timestamp='1363903141' post='2019380']Why thank you [/quote][/size]
[size=4]Will you two [/size][i]please [/i][size=4]get a room? [/size]

Edited March 21, 2013 by discreet

[Myke]

Bass Tractor

The fact that you're not English, and yet you structure your point a hundred times better than I could, astounds me!

Well done!

[MiltyG565]

[quote name='discreet' timestamp='1363905014' post='2019456']
Will you two [i]please [/i]get a room?
[/quote]

Alright, Myke... can i have the number for your bass?

[BassTractor]

[quote name='Myke' timestamp='1363905029' post='2019458']
Well done!
[/quote]


Thanks very much, man!


edit: ... but let's get a room, eh?


best,
bert

Edited March 21, 2013 by BassTractor

[discreet]

[quote name='BassTractor' timestamp='1363907023' post='2019517']
[size=4]Thanks very much, man![/size]
[/quote]

All good, but some context - Myke [i]is[/i] from Somerset.

[BassTractor]

[quote name='discreet' timestamp='1363907176' post='2019525']
All good, but some context - Myke [i]is[/i] from Somerset.
[/quote]

[gapiro]

[quote name='Myke' timestamp='1363734799' post='2016916']


I agree with the piano part but I don't agree that Rock is 'ignorant' of music theory. At all. I bet almost all of rock musicians know music theory, maybe not to the same level as classical players but enough to get them by. This in itself doesn't make them ignorant.
[/quote] IMO
It's actually usually a case of they know the theory but don't know that they know ( and are unable to communicate it as such, eg what sounds nice after an e? Aha. B

Edited March 21, 2013 by gapiro

[Myke]

[quote name='gapiro' timestamp='1363907944' post='2019548']
IMO
It's actually usually a case of they know the theory but don't know that they know ( and are unable to communicate it as such, eg what sounds nice after an e? Aha. B
[/quote]

I agree with that but what if they have a harmonised line, say, played by 2 guitars and bass? Surely they couldn't do that just by ooh that sounds nice?

[Myke]

Ooh, I'm popular tonight!

[quote name='discreet' timestamp='1363907176' post='2019525']
All good, but some context - Myke [i]is[/i] from Somerset.
[/quote]

Says the Londoner!

Chim chim-in-ey, chim chim-in-ey
Chim chim cher-oo!

[Dad3353]

[quote name='MiltyG565' timestamp='1363903786' post='2019409']
So then what you are saying really is that even the small amount of theory that a lot of guitarists and bassists know compared to most classical musicians, you wouldn't even consider as theory?
[/quote]

Perhaps, depending on what one takes '[color=#800000]the small amount of theory that a lot of guitarists and bassists know compared to most classical musicians[/color]' to mean. I still don't follow your equating the playing of the instrument (any instrument...) with theoretical knowledge. In my view (maybe different to others, as I've stated, and open to discussion...), music theory is independent of any instrument. One constructs chords from the same 'rule set' for brass, guitar, keys and choral work, albeit with different practical applicative limitations. A cadence is a cadence, whether in rock or flamenco. Transposing, construction of scales, the understanding and use of modes... the list is long. I can easily imagine a 'classical' oboe player being somewhat un-versed in chordal work. It wouldn't stop him playing correctly any written piece. It would surely handicap his career, of course, and, imho, he (she..?) would be a poorer musician, but the virtuosity of his playing is not directly related to his theoretical understanding. The opposite is even more true: a mastery of musical theory gives no guarantee of being able to play any instrument at all.
The general term 'rock guitarist' (or bassist...) implies, to me, nothing at all concerning any knowledge of theory of music. Are there any Irish fiddle players down your way..? Do they need music theory to tear up any decent pub gig, or folk concert..? It's not quite apples and cauliflowers, but I consider the concepts to be very separate.
As stated, I may be wrong, it has been known. The last time was around 1956 or so, I seem to remember...

Edited March 22, 2013 by Dad3353

[BassTractor]

[quote name='Dad3353' timestamp='1363910569' post='2019589']
As stated, I may be wrong, it has been known. The last time was around 1956 or so, I seem to remember...
[/quote]

... but Dad! I thought you really loved Mum!

Edited March 22, 2013 by BassTractor

[discreet]

[quote name='Myke' timestamp='1363908789' post='2019562']
Says the Londoner!
[/quote]

So what? I've got 20mb broadband! Nyahh! Thhppp!

[BigRedX]

[quote name='Myke' timestamp='1363908576' post='2019558']
I agree with that but what if they have a harmonised line, say, played by 2 guitars and bass? Surely they couldn't do that just by ooh that sounds nice?
[/quote]

Of course you can. This is how I write all the time. Once I've got the first basic idea, I'll build up the orchestration of the parts by "singing" them over what I already have and then transferring my vocal efforts on the instruments in using.

[MiltyG565]

[quote name='Dad3353' timestamp='1363910569' post='2019589']
Perhaps, depending on what one takes '[color=#800000]the small amount of theory that a lot of guitarists and bassists know compared to most classical musicians[/color]' to mean. I still don't follow your equating the playing of the instrument (any instrument...) with theoretical knowledge. In my view (maybe different to others, as I've stated, and open to discussion...), music theory is independent of any instrument. One constructs chords from the same 'rule set' for brass, guitar, keys and choral work, albeit with different practical applicative limitations. A cadence is a cadence, whether in rock or flamenco. Transposing, construction of scales, the understanding and use of modes... the list is long. I can easily imagine a 'classical' oboe player being somewhat un-versed in chordal work. It wouldn't stop him playing correctly any written piece. It would surely handicap his career, of course, and, imho, he (she..?) would be a poorer musician, but the virtuosity of his playing is not directly related to his theoretical understanding. The opposite is even more true: a mastery of musical theory gives no guarantee of being able to play any instrument at all.
The general term 'rock guitarist' (or bassist...) implies, to me, nothing at all concerning any knowledge of theory of music. Are there any Irish fiddle players down your way..? Do they need music theory to tear up any decent pub gig, or folk concert..? It's not quite apples and cauliflowers, but I consider the concepts to be very separate.
As stated, I may be wrong, it has been known. The last time was around 1956 or so, I seem to remember...
[/quote]

My point never was that theoretical knowledge was linked to the level of skill any musician possessed, plenty of people who don't or didn't have much theoretical knowledge were still great players, and the same goes for people with a good knowledge of theory. Of course learning theory is independent from any instrument, but in classical, it's more in the foreground, whereas in in, it's usually an after thought. I am going to be a bass teacher soon, and i don't want any of my students to be as ignorant as i was for the first 18 months of playing bass. I'm not just basing this on personal experience BTW, I know a lot of guitarists and drummers that know next to nothing when it comes to theory. Like has been said before, they probably know it, without knowing they know it, but they haven't been taught it.