Mixing Competition/Learning Resource - February POLL ADDED

[moonbass]

Just been having a play at getting a better stereo spread, and a kickier kick drum. Pretty sure this will be my final version... I'm starting to dream about the song!

https://soundcloud.com/makossaband/mission-ray-4

[51m0n]

[quote name='butlerk02' timestamp='1361467542' post='1986194']
Right, here's my final attempt.

[url="https://soundcloud.com/butlerk02/mr-basschat"]https://soundcloud.c...k02/mr-basschat[/url]

Would love to get some feedback and peoples opinions please.
[/quote]
[quote name='moonbass' timestamp='1361474783' post='1986370']
Just been having a play at getting a better stereo spread, and a kickier kick drum. Pretty sure this will be my final version... I'm starting to dream about the song!

[url="https://soundcloud.com/makossaband/mission-ray-4"]https://soundcloud.c...d/mission-ray-4[/url]
[/quote]
[quote name='lurksalot' timestamp='1361396521' post='1985459']
this will be my entry for the comp , it is a bit cleaner now I think , I have EQ'd the master channel a bit as well as I think some of the bottom end was sucked out in the upload last time.

[url="https://soundcloud.com/lurksalot/mission-ray-v2"]Mission Ray V2 [/url]
[/quote]
[quote name='Chrismanbass' timestamp='1361354745' post='1984852']
yeh late night mix started on headphones should be fixed now also for that opening fill the snares doubled up

heres the most recent incarnation

[url="https://soundcloud.com/chris-hallam-1/mission-ray-6"]https://soundcloud.c...1/mission-ray-6[/url]


and heres the final mix

[url="https://soundcloud.com/chris-hallam-1/mission-ray-final"]https://soundcloud.c...ssion-ray-final[/url]

i've left all the links active so you can hopefully hear some progression

imo this final mix is a lot wider than the other two and also there a few problems which i've ironed out
[/quote]

Wow, this ones really hotting up isnt it!

Interesting developments chaps. Lots of different interpretations of the main rhythm guitars, brighter, middlier, more or less reverb. But the general sounds of the mixes isnt miles apart. Some of you seem to be struggling to get the drums under control more than others, there's some fairly whumpy/soggy kick drums within some of these. Its really not a nice soudn to start with so it was going to be a big factor in showing who has got their head around controlling this area the most I think.

Lots of good effort gone into these, I'll leave getting more specific to poll time. Personally I confess I decided right at the start to go for the biggest stadium rock oversized sound I could get out of it from the get go, really concentrated on the ambience in mine, and getting the drums to retain weight whilst losing flab (weird analogy).

I'm most happy about the way the vocals sit, and generally just how much I've put the band in a huge space, hopefully without overpowering the performances at all. That and getting the drums to work right, getting what I think is a totally killer bass sound, and lastly the way my mix seems to work on everything from laprtop speakers to headphones to the big speakers I have at my disposal nicely. Translation is key!

Game on, poll will be set up on Monday, and I'll venture out of recording to try and enlist some more voters to have a listen and see what they like the most...

[Skol303]

[quote name='51m0n' timestamp='1361537257' post='1987113']...poll will be set up on Monday, and I'll venture out of recording to try and enlist some more voters to have a listen and see what they like the most...[/quote]

Nice one Si and everyone else who's had a go this month!

So the deadline for entries is Sunday at midnight? Don't think I'll make that as I'm away this weekend, but I might get a late entry in on Monday evening. "Don't wait up", of course, it's my own fault for not getting my arse in the right gear this month

[51m0n]

Go on Skol, you can thrash one out in a couple of hours

[Skol303]

^ I'm going to do my damdest mate! Slightly unnerving given the number of stems but I'll chalk it up as 'learning experience'

Should have something up late on Sunday or Monday night. Needless to say, start the voting as planned as it doesn't matter if I'm late to the party.

[OldG]

Here's my take on this,

I've tried for an analogue type feel and laid off hitting too hard with comps, etc... lots of Satson CM use here

[url="http://soundcloud.com/mickhastings/mission-ray-final"]http://soundcloud.com/mickhastings/mission-ray-final[/url]

[51m0n]

Cheers OldG!

[VasDim]

Hi all, this is my mix:
[media]http://dl.dropbox.com/u/70048273/Basschat.co.uk/Mission%20Ray%20-%20VasDim%60s%20Mix.mp3[/media]

[OldG]

Welcome aboard!

[D.I. Joe]

Aw man, am I too late to make a start? TNA starts in half an hour!

[51m0n]

Go for it

[Skol303]

I've been away all weekend and am currently trying to get a mix together in one sitting! Not an easy task for me as I like to take my time and twiddle...

[spoiler]http://i1327.photobucket.com/albums/u671/Skol303/KennethWilliams_zps9346f020.jpg[/spoiler]

Giving myself till midnight before I[s] finish[/s] abandon it and post something up

Edited February 24, 2013 by Skol303

[Chrismanbass]

just be careful to make sure you don't get tired ears (yes your ears get tired) should be an interesting concept to see how it comes out maybe do a mix now for the comp and then spend a couple of days tweaking might be interesting to compare the results?

[Skol303]

Phew, made it! Or at least I made [i]something[/i]:

https://soundcloud.com/skol-mixes/mission-ray-by-dientes

Hastily done and still plenty more I'd like to do on it, but I'm out of time. Spent longest on the drums (gates galore). Didn't have chance to treat each stem individually (other than panning and the occasional fx), so I had to work using mainly just bus processing for each of the main groups.

I didn't do nearly as much 'messing' with the track as I did last month. Partly because it didn't need much messing with, and largely because I had no time! Probably a good thing anyway.

PS: there's a riff towards the end of this track that just [u]is[/u] Foxy Lady by Hendrix. Not a bad thing at all. It got well and truly stuck in my head

[51m0n]

Poll Added - see OP...

[lurksalot]

I have had a few good listens and put my vote in , and I didn't vote for my own

[Chrismanbass]

same here i think its only fair to not vote for your own

[51m0n]

I think you should vote for the best one there in your opinion, if thats yours to your ears then thats the way it goes, although you really need to listen honestly and look for weaknesses in your mix, and whether or not it conveys the emotional impact of the song for you better than the rest of them. It helps if you can argue that case to yourself. Last time I thought Skols mix was superb, though a step too far away from the original song for my liking, but such a good effort other than that. The rest didnt feel quite as sorted, but I am aware that I tend to listen from a very technical place first and foremost when trying to judge mixes, which isnt always the best place to be honest.

However as this goes on I am starting to think maybe it should be a blind vote too, which would need more thinking about in terms of maybe someone not entering the competition, but rather being PM'ed the links by each person entering and then putting them all up with no way of telling from the URLs which was which (other than recognising your own).

It could certainly be done using something like dropbox and downloading the original files and reuploading them. Maybe next month I'll do that rather than enter? Maybe if its blind then the person putting it together can enter too. This time I added the poll in the order the final mixes hit the thread (only reason I'm first in the list, honest!), on a blind poll then it would all be very random.

That way everyone gets a far more unbiased stab.......

Edited February 25, 2013 by 51m0n

[lurksalot]

Si, I do vote for what I think is best , don't worry , I only made the comment because there was a vote for mine , I was being a little tongue in cheek really . I take it as read that my own is the best , but will always vote for someone elses to be fair .

[Skol303]

Ok, I've just finished giving each one a listen and have scribbled notes, which are hopefully useful in some small way. Really good standard this month! And much harder to pick a winner. Bear in mind I listen (and produce) exclusively on headphones, so my interpretation of each mix might be different to other people's - but that's "all part of the game"

Anyway, here goes…

[b]51m0n:[/b] Bass sounds especially great. Drums too. Everything nice and wide; well balanced; all together and nicely 'glued'. Like the 'verb on the vocal - could maybe do with some rides here and there to keep it just right in the mix, but that's a very minor criticism. Filled my headphones from ear to ear. Nicely clear when played loud and quiet. Very good work!

[b]Chrismanbass:[/b] Bass and guitars fit together well. That said they're perhaps a little too low in the mix and the guitars could do some EQ'ing in the low-mids to reduce a bit of the muddiness - but there's a lot going in with the guitars in this track, which I also found myself wrestling with! The snare has a bit too much compression (it's a wee bit 'slappy' in places) and the overheads need some work - but again, I struggled with these issues myself. The vocals are nicely clear and audible throughout.

[b]Lurksalot:[/b] Big improvements in how you've panned and arranged everything stereo-wise! Although the the track does seem to 'lean' towards the right slightly - there's maybe too much panned there and not enough balance to the left. Is the snare panned to the right? I think that might be the main culprit! You're also a bit too generous with the ol' reverb… everything sounds quite distant as a result, which sucks some of the punch out of it. I like the 'jangle' you've kept in the snare (wish I'd done the same) and the lead vocal sounds ok - the reverb actually works best there. The low-mids sounds a bit muffled, so there's probably more EQ'ing to do around there (the guitars maybe). All that said, this is a massive step forwards from last month and a sure sign you're getting your head around all this mixing malarkey! Well done mate

[b]Butlerk02:[/b] Like this! The guitars and bass seem well EQ'd and gel together well. Good use of the full stereo width - everything sounds wide and well balanced. The vocal in particular is great - just the right volume to sit nicely in the mix. My only real criticisms would be the kick drum (which sounds a little 'flabby') and the crash cymbal, which lacks, well, 'crash' Still, this is good stuff.

[b]Moonbass:[/b] Like this too! Kick has plenty of punch here; the guitars and bass sound full and well mixed. Like Butler's (above), the lead vocal is great - very clear and sitting nicely in the mix (I like what you've done with the backing vox too). There's a really clever fade (I think it's the bass?) around 2:43 which is great - caught my attention, in a good way. Can't find much fault with it to be honest… thumbs up.

[b]OldG:[/b] Markedly more quiet than the other entries… but no matter, I just turned it up! I like the drums here, Mick. The kick and snare sound punchy and cut through the mix nicely. Good panning on the guitars. Vocals could do with some rides here and there, but that's me being picky (I didn't have time to automate and volume changes on mine, so I'm in no position to criticise!). Bass could perhaps be a touch louder… but that's a mantra I apply to nearly everything I listen to Anyway, I like this one a lot.

[b]VasDim:[/b] Sounds clear and well EQ'd. There's a nice 'crispness' to the mix - plenty going on in the upper freq's, but not so much that it sounds thin and fragile. Good panning throughout - it sounds super wide. Bass is perhaps a little 'boomy' in the lows, but that's a minor point. I like how you've panned the percussion hard at the end - the shaker and 'love eggs' (nice labeling Keith!) sit just right and really help lift the outro; wish I'd done the same on reflection. Good work.

And my vote goes to…

[spoiler]Moonbass! A very close run win (just pipping Si in particular to the finishing post this month). I think your mix matches the song very well - it's got plenty of punch and aggression, some inspired moments of character (that fade, for instance) and I think you made a great job of the vocal. Well done Andy![/spoiler]

[Roland Rock]

I've voted on this now. This is purely from a non technical point of view (what the hell is a stem? :-D) so it's literally just what I liked the sound of.

[butlerk02]

Thanks for the feedback Skol - I've think you've summed up pretty much what I think about all of the mixes too.

Getting the kick right is something I seem to be struggling with at the moment. Maybe you could give me some tips? With regards to the cymbals, I probably turned the overheads down too much as I hate the claspeness from the hi-hats.

The guy in the band who wrote this track also prefers Moonbass track. Well done to him!!!

[OldG]

[quote name='butlerk02' timestamp='1362044595' post='1994803']
Getting the kick right is something I seem to be struggling with at the moment. Maybe you could give me some tips?

[/quote]

I used 51m0n's advice in post 29..

[quote name= 51m0n]
'Power' is gained from good transient control (and the control of the 30 to 80ms after the transient), great seperation and a deep understanding of what is providing energy in the low mids and when IME.

It can be exaggerated greatly with parallel compression techniques (particularly on drums) and ducking techniques (kick and bass guitar, snare and guitars in a dense mix as well). In some genres you can increase the sense of power by getting some pumping going off the kick drum on a group (say of the rhythm guitars).

[/quote]

I ended up EQing the kick to suit and then sent it to parallel comp - then 'ducked' (sidechain compression) the bass under the kick just a little to help it's clarity. It really helped to up the power and presence of the kick.

[lurksalot]

Cheers Skol , thanks for the review , I think I am getting somewhere, some of the techniques are slowing getting in my head and I have bought that mixing book you suggested , onwards and upwards .

[51m0n]

Right here are my thoughts as I listened through the mixes.

Its not very well written, and its pretty abrupt, but first impressions are everything in this game I think, listen too much and any amount of awful can start to sound good.

No offence intended to anyone, I really think the level has gone up a whole big step this time around from everyone involved!


[b]SKOL[/b]

Muffled kick and bass

Bright and rather 'small' snare

Lead vocals need a bit more presence

Guitars nicely present and wide but extra parts dont 'jump out' as much as I'd like

Bvs nicely placed



[b]OLDG[/b]

Slightly over compressed snare, kick is good and punchy, not big enough? Certainly pokes through, and competes with the bass though. Bit more EQ and that would be bang on!

Nice bass sound there, gets a little lost against the guitars unfortunately

Harsh funk guitar

Trashy hats, they sound a bit 'pumpy', is there a compressor threshold/release or gate threshold/release thats opening and closing around them on something like the OH a bit? Some phase oddness perhaps...

Very present guitars, nice, but maybe just bordering on the fizz I dont dig so much. I think you get away with it in the main.

Slightly middy vocal?

Dry - where is the sense of a space?


[b]CHRISMANBASS[/b]

Slapback on vocals? Bit odd

Over compressed snare - gate threshold not right, its dropping some of the lighter snare hits (which is an unforgivable crime!)

Thwacky nasty kick too middly - EQ far harder!!

Guitars present - very dry not too bright though - nice!


[b]LURKSALOT[/b]

Kick needs a lot of work, eq pull out the mids a lot more to get some thump and slap (boost around 4KHz)

Big reverb, early reflections too loud adding a slapback delay on lead vocal (which has a little too much low mid)

Guitars could be even wider, maybe the verb pulling them central

Bass sound is nice especially in mellow middle section!

Better and better though Lurks, definitely moving in the right direction on this one..


[b]MOONBASS[/b]

Guitars could be wider at the begining but it works ok as a feature part I think.

Kick drum rather muffled, needs more click to back up the bass, I want to hear and feel every single kick, a lot of the lighter kicks are lost completely in the murk I think.

Bass a bit wooly for me in the loud parts, there is such a good sound in there, then in the mellow bit you can really hear that groink.

Super work on the guitars in the mellow bit, nice modulation!

Love the fade in on the bass part(?) at the end of the middle 8

Lead vocs are good and forward, a little too bright maybe (tad harsh in the loudest parts is all)

Clap could sound a bit more cracky, and some (more) ambience on it woudl give it a tail that would emphasise the entire snare, tricky to do that right though.

Good mix overall though, some very good ideas, just all a bit congested in the low mids in the rhythm section I think.


[b]BUTLERK02[/b]

BIIIIG KIICK! Bit too much adds some mud with the bass

Very dry, hats swishy swassshhhy, need to control that better I think (hint high shelf eq on the top snare mic set to -12dB and roll the frequency down from 20KHz until you get the perfect blend between the snare and hats)

Good snare though, woody

Lead vocal a little low mid heavy?

Guitars are spread really well and very crisp, gives masses of room for the vocals, nice work! The lead parts are bordering on fizzy for me though, which I absolutely hate.

Need to hear that lovely bass growl a little more in the main verse chorus sections I think, sounds so good in the mellow part after all!

Great bvs!


[b]VASDIM[/b]

Snare is a bit muddy, full though, its overpowering the kick drum rather plus the toms are in another world from the rest of the kit!

Guitars are nice, good control of the extreme top end, no fizzzzz

Funk guitar is a bit loud and full for my liking

Lead vocal is a bit heavy in the low mid too, wonder whether your monitors are light in that area and you are mixing to compensate?

Like the guitar treatment in the middle 8.

Very very dry, there is no ambience or sense of space to speak of, which is preventing cohesion, there are a selection of instruments playing at the same time, but not necessarily in the same space I think?


[b]VIRTUALLY EVERYONE [/b](not trying to teach anyone to suck eggs, this is just what I felt from listening to all these mixes)

...had the snare roll too loud out of the middle 8 for my liking, really felt that absolutely had to fade in, listen to my mix where its all reverb and room at the beginning of the snare roll and the actual snare drum fades in as the roll goes on, its like the drummer walks right up to the vocalist from about 50 yards back during that roll, made it far more musical for me.

Also I cant stress how much I felt this song needed to sound huuuge in a massive place, arena sized and then some, and every mix here (other than mine) sounds like its either very dry or has a reverb with a ton of early reflections on it making it sound like its in a very small space, in some cases we are nearing John Lennon levels of slapback delay, and that very rarely sounds good (it didnt for him either IMO ).

I think that is what sets my mix apart from the rest, the band are in a huge space for a huge pop rock song. Its not a very popular thing to do these days I think (use that much reverb), although apparently reverb is coming back in these days, but it still sounds totally epic compared to the ultra tight bright mixes that I think are generally easier to produce (reverb can really overpower you need to absolutely pick the perfect one and tweak it and filter it to get this sound right) and end up sounding far less dramatic. One trick is to use a plate reverb on the vocal (but its got to be the right plate) since they tend to allow the vocal to sit forward even though there is a ton of reverb on them. The snare in my mix is backed up by a very very wide plate reverb that fills in the back beat, its a neat trick for getting a weedy snare to sound bigger without resorting to 80's gated reverbs (which I hate). IIRC there was a third reverb, and a stereo panned delay on the mix too, all helping to make a big airy sound that joins everything else up. Tricky though, I still cant decide if the guitars arent a tad too far back as a result, but the song does sound big, thats for sure. Of course mine isnt the song writer's favourite mix so what the hell do I know , very well done Moonbass for realisisng the mix the closest to how the songwriter imagined it should be. No small accomplishment that!

Dont be afraid to use massively enormous eq cuts on the drums, these were immensely uninspiring sounds as tracked, and the kick in particular needed gobs and gobs of eq cut in the mids to get it to sound remotely like it needs to to stand its ground against the bass and snare.
When a sound is gash do whatever it takes to get rid of the awful, and what is left will be at the very least usable IME.

Having said all this and sounded maybe a bit negative I do think that the quality of the mixes has gone up a notch all round this month (possible exception being Skol, but he did his in about 5 minutes so thats only to be expected really!). Really really well done to everyone.

I havent voted, I would have voted for mine, really because I think its one of the best mixes I've ever done for capturing a song in a space, and by gum thats a great bass sound (I also think I dealt with the 'damaged' drum tracks really well too), I am totally chuffed with it. But in my excitement to realise the mix in that big space I missed what the songwriter wanted completely it seems. Never mind! It has been an absolute pleasure mixing this track, its a great song, and I urge you all to buy the album too, this is not a great song standing alone by any means!