J + J = MM ?

[apa]

If I put two Jazz bridge pickups together, wire them through a 3way switch to get series/parallel/single then sent that through a MM style preamp would I get something close to a Stingray sound with the added option of the Jazz sound when switched to single? Obviously it wont be smack on but something akin to it. To my mind the Ray sound is alot to do with the Pre?

If the answer is no then why and what would (Other than the obvious) and if the answer is yes which Jazz pickups would be best to use.

Cheers in advance :¬D

A

[mart]

I assume you mean you'd be placing the two J pickups right next to each other, like on this bass:
http://basschat.co.uk/topic/194434-sold-warwick-streamer-pro-m-german-1998-sold/
If so, the answer would seem to be "yes".

[Subthumper]

I think the Ray sound is more to do with the actual pickup and the out of phase created by the two coils so you should get pretty close using two single coils as a humbucker. Its certainly the case with my five string, got a seymour basslines MM5 replacement pup and a John East U retro deluxe and it sounds like a Ray in active or passive mode. Personally not a fan of onboard eq so might ditch the u retro. There are some sounds you just cant eq its got to be created by the pickup.
Good luck cheers Just

Edited December 19, 2012 by Subthumper

[apa]

Yep Thats exactly what Im thinking of. I know of the twin Jazz config but I didnt know if it did do an MM sound. Thats why Ill be adding the MM pre or is it all in the pups?

A

[apa]

[quote name='Subthumper' timestamp='1355910396' post='1904200']
I think the Ray sound is more to do with the actual pickup and the out of phase created by the two coils so you should get pretty close using two single coils as a humbucker. Its certainly the case with my five string, got a seymour basslines MM5 replacement pup and a John East U retro deluxe and it sounds like a Ray in active or passive mode. Personally not a fan of onboard eq so might ditch the u retro. There are some sounds you just cant eq its got to be created by the pickup.
Good luck cheers Just
[/quote]

Ahh now thats interesting! So your still getting an MM sound through a U Retro. But you are using an MM pickup rather than Jazzes! That would actually be more convenient using a U Retro. BTW If this would work I may be interested in it

A

[LukeFRC]

dont forget the pickup placement

[apa]

[quote name='LukeFRC' timestamp='1355913096' post='1904233']
dont forget the pickup placement
[/quote]

That is another consideration. Placing the twin Jazz in the MM position is OK but would one ofn them still be in the Jazz position!!!!

A

[stoker]

I believe that the MM p/up lie somewhere between the 2 J p/ups.

[Prime_BASS]

I think in the 60's position, the bridge pickup up is in a similar position to the bottom coil on an MM stingray.

[apa]

[quote name='Prime_BASS' timestamp='1355914714' post='1904271']
I think in the 60's position, the bridge pickup up is in a similar position to the bottom coil on an MM stingray.
[/quote]

Thats what I wanted to hear

A

[stoker]

If you had one of the J coils reverse wound you couold have the switch as series/parallel/coil tap for even more options.

[LukeFRC]

seeing that you are going to buy atleast one jazz pup, or possibly two in one housing, rout a hole in a body and so on.... have you seen the delano hybrid pickup?

[apa]

[quote name='LukeFRC' timestamp='1355916607' post='1904331']
seeing that you are going to buy atleast one jazz pup, or possibly two in one housing, rout a hole in a body and so on.... have you seen the delano hybrid pickup?
[/quote]

Unfortunatly these will be very bespoke. Nothing on the market will fit for reasons Im not prepared to divulge at present but thanks for the heads up

Ill need either a custom made Humbucker or custom made J's. Niether with housings and with specific spacings.

A

[neepheid]

Something like this?

[ikay]

[quote name='apa' timestamp='1355913205' post='1904236']
Placing the twin Jazz in the MM position is OK but would one ofn them still be in the Jazz position!!!!
[/quote]

Not quite. As stoker says, the stingray pup position falls between the 2 J pups. See measurements below for comparison. These are measured from the centre of the 12th fret to the centre of the polepieces in mm.

MM Stringray 5 - 332 neck coil / 356 bridge coil

Fender Jazz (60s spacing) - 277 neck / 367 bridge

Fender Jazz (70s spacing) - 277 neck / 377 bridge

Fender Precision - 281 G D coil / 309 A E coil

Edited December 19, 2012 by ikay

[woodyratm]

My custom has this. Thought the pup is closer to the bridge ala sandberg. Also because of the pickguard...

[apa]

[quote name='stoker' timestamp='1355915841' post='1904308']
If you had one of the J coils reverse wound you couold have the switch as series/parallel/coil tap for even more options.
[/quote]

Thats exactly the plan. A nice switch for you to play with to BTW Mums the word because you know what this is about


[quote name='neepheid' timestamp='1355918115' post='1904374']
Something like this?


[/quote]


Thats it in principal yep but not in practice


[quote name='ikay' timestamp='1355920157' post='1904439']
Not quite. As stoker says, the stingray pup position falls between the 2 J pups. See measurements below for comparison. These are measured from the centre of the 12th fret to the centre of the polepieces in mm.

MM Stringray 5 - 332 neck coil / 356 bridge coil

Fender Jazz (60s spacing) - 277 neck / 367 bridge

Fender Jazz (70s spacing) - 277 neck / 377 bridge

Fender Precision - 281 G D coil / 309 A E coil
[/quote]

I will probably plump for the MM position and thanks for that very usefull info

A

[apa]

The question still remains do I need an MM Pre to get close to an MM sound? Subthumper seems to suggest so. Anyone else?

A

[ikay]

This link might be worth a look - http://www.talkbass.com/forum/f38/music-man-sound-pickups-739218/

[Subthumper]

[quote name='apa' timestamp='1355935306' post='1904747']
The question still remains do I need an MM Pre to get close to an MM sound? Subthumper seems to suggest so. Anyone else?

A
[/quote]
No, what I said was I did'nt think you needed a mm preamp. On my bass the pickup sounds the same with or without the active eq. I think the mm eq is +- 15dB at 100hz and 5 or 10khz (someone please correct me). Its the humbucking/out of phase and the pickups design and construction that makes its noise. If your so keen on that sound why not just get a MM pickup and save all the grief of trying to make something that isnt a mm be something its not?

[iiipopes]

[quote name='stoker' timestamp='1355915841' post='1904308']
If you had one of the J coils reverse wound you couold have the switch as series/parallel/coil tap for even more options.
[/quote]
J-pickups are RWRP to begin with. All the OP needs to do is wire them together.
[quote name='neepheid' timestamp='1355918115' post='1904374']
Something like this?[/quote]
That's a start, but it will still sound like a J with more midrange. Compared to a true MM pickup:
The placement of the pickup is close, but still different.
The coil geometry (width, height, number of turns of different kind of wire) is different.
With the polepieces, being a single large slug per string per coil, the tone has more "attack" than a J-pickup;
And so on.

Edited December 19, 2012 by iiipopes

[apa]

[quote name='Subthumper' timestamp='1355945968' post='1904942']
No, what I said was I did'nt think you needed a mm preamp. On my bass the pickup sounds the same with or without the active eq. I think the mm eq is +- 15dB at 100hz and 5 or 10khz (someone please correct me). Its the humbucking/out of phase and the pickups design and construction that makes its noise. If your so keen on that sound why not just get a MM pickup and save all the grief of trying to make something that isnt a mm be something its not?
[/quote]

gahh!! Sorry I missed out the '[i]Doesnt[/i]'


[quote name='iiipopes' timestamp='1355946830' post='1904954']
J-pickups are RWRP to begin with. All the OP needs to do is wire them together.

That's a start, but it will still sound like a J with more midrange. Compared to a true MM pickup:
The placement of the pickup is close, but still different.
The coil geometry (width, height, number of turns of different kind of wire) is different.
With the polepieces, being a single large slug per string per coil, the tone has more "attack" than a J-pickup;
And so on.
[/quote]

Good stuff I cant use a stock pickup though. Its going to be a fan fret so I was thinking of 2 jazz types side by side at an angle. Im not actually looking for 'That MM sound' just something close. Thats why I thought an MM pre would do something for it. Seems not though. Since they will be custom made I could have them made with the big MM cores and windings and use a J-Retro. That would make life alot easier for me actually.

A

[ikay]

Here's an eq chart for the 3-band SR preamp

[attachment=125488:Stingray5-EQchart.jpg]

This link may also be of interest - [url="http://forums.ernieball.com/music-man-basses/42214-stingray-sound-examples.html"]http://forums.ernieb...d-examples.html[/url] It gives a detailed comparison of various Stingray eq settings along with sound samples for several; different SR models

Edited December 19, 2012 by ikay

[Dom in Dorset]

aren't MM poles individually wound then put into the pickup? I can't find a pic on the wedb but there is one in "Make your own electric guitar" showing this.
Edit: further research shows that I am probably mistaken, I'll check in the book tomorrow.
My mistake, it's Wal that wind the poles separately.

Edited December 20, 2012 by Dom in Somerset

[iiipopes]

[quote name='apa' timestamp='1355950945' post='1905015']
Good stuff I cant use a stock pickup though. Its going to be a fan fret so I was thinking of 2 jazz types side by side at an angle. Im not actually looking for 'That MM sound' just something close. Thats why I thought an MM pre would do something for it. Seems not though. Since they will be custom made I could have them made with the big MM cores and windings and use a J-Retro. That would make life alot easier for me actually. A[/quote]

Look at Sheldon Dingwall's basses for how he slants pickups. I also did a fanned fret bass, which is my #1 gigging instrument:
[url="http://basschat.co.uk/topic/174777-and-now-for-something-completely-different-in-a-pj/page__p__1632811__hl__different%20fanned__fromsearch__1#entry1632811"]http://basschat.co.u..._1#entry1632811[/url]

Two items:
1) if the Jazz pickups are rotated enough, the mounting flanges will clear and you can possibly get the coils a little closer together; but,
2) rotating the pickups effectively narrows the polepiece spacing of the pickup (remember your basic trigodometry), so you will need to make sure that the strings will still go over the center of a single polepiece, or between the polepieces of a 2-poles-per-string jazz bass pickup.

Or, you can obviate the issue by getting a rails pickup, like a Barden, or a Bartolini, which the Jazz models usually have two small blades and two coils to make them noise cancelling. On my bass, the pickup in the "P" position is a Rickenbacker humbucker that has blades, and the bridge pickup is a DiMarzio UltraJazz neck pickup with the strings narrowed on the "bolt stock" bridge to keep them going over the middle of each pair of polepieces.

Edited December 20, 2012 by iiipopes