alexclaber Posted October 16, 2012 Share Posted October 16, 2012 Yes, you can make cardioid arrays with passive cabs but as you say, you need DSP and separate amps for each part of the array. And the less accurate the cab, the further the performance will diverge from the theoretical ideal - and crank up the volume on a load of passive cabs (without DSP which compensates for voicecoil heating) and things will really diverge! But that's not massively relevant to bass cabs - the important bit is the interaction of direct and reflected waves, which you didn't say anything about because you said you didn't know why your low B could sound quiet by your rig and knock drinks over at distance tables. That is why! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wiggybass Posted October 16, 2012 Share Posted October 16, 2012 [quote name='alexclaber' timestamp='1350408132' post='1838449'] Yes, you can make cardioid arrays with passive cabs but as you say, you need DSP and separate amps for each part of the array. And the less accurate the cab, the further the performance will diverge from the theoretical ideal - and crank up the volume on a load of passive cabs (without DSP which compensates for voicecoil heating) and things will really diverge! But that's not massively relevant to bass cabs - the important bit is the interaction of direct and reflected waves, which you didn't say anything about because you said you didn't know why your low B could sound quiet by your rig and knock drinks over at distance tables. That is why! [/quote] OK, I'll come back to that in a minute - what about dispersion (and / or the lack thereof in backline)? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redstriper Posted October 16, 2012 Share Posted October 16, 2012 I really wish I understood any of this, but I don't and I have no idea how my rig sounds to anyone else. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JTUK Posted October 16, 2012 Share Posted October 16, 2012 simple..ask them!! and they should be asking/telling you. I think I'll know how my rigs sound 80-90% of the time so I don't really see why this is a problem. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LawrenceH Posted October 16, 2012 Share Posted October 16, 2012 [quote name='alexclaber' timestamp='1350408132' post='1838449'] But that's not massively relevant to bass cabs - the important bit is the interaction of direct and reflected waves, which you didn't say anything about because you said you didn't know why your low B could sound quiet by your rig and knock drinks over at distance tables. That is why! [/quote] That will be why in a lot of cases, but to assume it's always like that makes an assumption that the size of your listening aperture is constant (and negligible). I'd like to know more about the neuro/mechanical integration of signals in perception of LF. Fletcher-Munsen curves for example could be dramatically influenced by the method of sound delivery if our brains are using different approaches at different frequencies. Eg whether differing pressure gradients across our body are perceived differently to a relatively constant pressure gradient, or how much we use direct vibrational sensing from our torsos versus mechanical resonance effects that are ultimately integrated at the ear (ie prior to the brain). People talk subjectively about bass kicking them in the chest and small cabs not doing that. A small driver/cab driven to high excursion would probably have a different distortion profile to a large driver/cab with inter-modulation distortion and Bl curves and all that, which could be one explanation - but it would also differ in nearfield sound pressure gradients, in areas occupied by the player's body. Has anyone actually tried integrating a small cab with something like a tecamp pleasure pump (ooer etc etc)? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wiggybass Posted October 16, 2012 Share Posted October 16, 2012 [quote name='alexclaber' timestamp='1350408132' post='1838449'] Yes, you can make cardioid arrays with passive cabs but as you say, you need DSP and separate amps for each part of the array. And the less accurate the cab, the further the performance will diverge from the theoretical ideal - and crank up the volume on a load of passive cabs (without DSP which compensates for voicecoil heating) and things will really diverge! But that's not massively relevant to bass cabs - the important bit is the interaction of direct and reflected waves, which you didn't say anything about because you said you didn't know why your low B could sound quiet by your rig and knock drinks over at distance tables. That is why! [/quote] I think you're on the right track but I think it's 99% to do with reflections from the floor, i.e. the effect of 'ground coupling' with LF sources and the long wavelengths they produce. There would be too much amplitude offset between direct and reflected signals coming off the walls and ceiling (especially in a room fitted with absorptive materials like carpets and curtains) for phase cancellation or summation to be an audible issue. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
keeponehandloose Posted October 16, 2012 Share Posted October 16, 2012 Ive never been happier than with my current mesa walkabout 15 and matching extension cab, I would say they are in the lightweight cabs bracket by todays standards, but put them side by side on a stage and stand clear. They have a 12" speaker without a magnet that pumps down into the stage, it seems as though the bass comes from all directons . Whenever I ve tried stacking them though , there seems to be some sort of phase cancellation and they can sound totally limp. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wiggybass Posted October 16, 2012 Share Posted October 16, 2012 [quote name='keeponehandloose' timestamp='1350414927' post='1838593'] Ive never been happier than with my current mesa walkabout 15 and matching extension cab, I would say they are in the lightweight cabs bracket by todays standards, but put them side by side on a stage and stand clear. They have a 12" speaker without a magnet that pumps down into the stage, it seems as though the bass comes from all directons . Whenever I ve tried stacking them though , there seems to be some sort of phase cancellation and they can sound totally limp. [/quote] Have you tried them both ways up, i.e. with the combo on top and on the bottom (no idea if thats even possible btw!)? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jools4001 Posted October 16, 2012 Share Posted October 16, 2012 [quote name='WinterMute' timestamp='1350393712' post='1838174'] In the 80's I ran a GK 800RB bi-amped into an Ampeg 8x10 and a TE 4x10, I played a 5 string Thumb and it sounded awesome... 400 watts was plenty to shift the air and the decibels, however it weighed slightly more than the car I use to shift it around in and I was young, strong and stupidly keen... I also only ran one basic bass sound, and this is the key element. I'm 48 now, I play 5 string fretted and fretless and the bass sound shifts to suit the style and content of each song occasionally during songs, I need a rig that shifts the air and the db, but can cope with the different tonality and playing styles I employ, plus it has to be small and light... I have a Pod XT pro and a Crown XTi1000 awaiting a Big Twin T from Alex, I fully expect it to be able to outperform the old rig. I love 8x10 and large scale rigs as much as the next Teutonic Bass Monster, but sometimes technology and the application of knowledge and design comes up with something different. I'll let you know if Alex, (and by extension, myself) are right. [/quote] I think you will be fine. It turns out we have very similar historical rigs and very similar current ones. I used to use Trace Elliot stuff and dabbled with GK and Ampeg. All very good for their time. Like you I also now play 4, 5 and 6 string fretted basses and a 5 string fretless and also want a wide variety of sounds. I also have a Line 6 XT (in Live format) which gives me patches set up for every song in our set list and enables me to flick from a growling Ric tone from my '73 4001 to a perfect fretless tone at the prod of a button. I run that into an ART pro channel that is a fantastic channel strip type pre-amp. It's billed as a mic pre but does a great job for gain matching from the Pod, it has a nice compressor a parametric EQ and an output stage that will drive any power amp. I use the Pod for my core sounds and the EQ in the ART lets me quickly make global EQ changes to suit any room (so my patches all sound just as I want them to in different venues). All that goes into a Crown 100XLS running bridged and finally into a BF Big One. It sounds far better to me than any of the big heavy rigs I've had before and I can't imagine many ways I could improve things. The Big One is a couple of years old now but still mightily impressive. I don't think you'll be disappointed in the BF cab. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alexclaber Posted October 17, 2012 Share Posted October 17, 2012 [quote name='Wiggybass' timestamp='1350414395' post='1838582']I think you're on the right track but I think it's 99% to do with reflections from the floor, i.e. the effect of 'ground coupling' with LF sources and the long wavelengths they produce. There would be too much amplitude offset between direct and reflected signals coming off the walls and ceiling (especially in a room fitted with absorptive materials like carpets and curtains) for phase cancellation or summation to be an audible issue.[/quote] With the long wavelengths at low frequencies being very resistant to damping from furniture etc the boundary reflections are plenty high enough in amplitude to cause what I've described. I haven't just plucked this theory out of thin air, it's a well known phenomenon, especially on the cutting edge of home audio. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wiggybass Posted October 18, 2012 Share Posted October 18, 2012 (edited) [quote name='alexclaber' timestamp='1350460237' post='1839037'] With the long wavelengths at low frequencies being very resistant to damping from furniture etc the boundary reflections are plenty high enough in amplitude to cause what I've described. I haven't just plucked this theory out of thin air, it's a well known phenomenon, especially on the cutting edge of home audio. [/quote] I wasn't saying you picked it out of thin air - the theory is sound enough, I just think it's unlikely to be applicable in this case, but hey, it's your opinion and that's fine by me. Not often you see the phrase 'cutting edge' and 'home audio' in the same sentence either - let's not forget that is a market which has been sold the concept of mono-directional speaker cable and other such snake oil nonsense. Edited October 18, 2012 by Wiggybass Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brensabre79 Posted October 18, 2012 Share Posted October 18, 2012 So should I put my speaker on a chair or not then? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JTUK Posted October 18, 2012 Share Posted October 18, 2012 [quote name='brensabre79' timestamp='1350560069' post='1840456'] So should I put my speaker on a chair or not then? [/quote] If you can't hear it, then maybe you'll have to...but I'd fix the underlining issue which would be to mix the band or get another cab. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wiggybass Posted October 18, 2012 Share Posted October 18, 2012 [quote name='brensabre79' timestamp='1350560069' post='1840456'] So should I put my speaker on a chair or not then? [/quote] The answer is - try it. You'll find that you lose quite a bit of low-end by decoupling the cabinet from the floor but this may not bother you, or at least may matter less than not being able to hear yourself, and you can probably wind in a bit more bass using the EQ on your amp if you have to. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brensabre79 Posted October 18, 2012 Share Posted October 18, 2012 cheers, i tried it and it was awesome, but all the science talk - which went way above me I'm afraid - got me wondering if it was the right thing to do. The issue is, where I stand I'm right next to the drums and I'm in front of the guitarists Fender Twin - mostly this is so that her mic isn't facing it directly as she sings quietly so the mic is cranked. So generally I end up increasing my volume so I can hear myself, on-stage the balance is good but every gig someone usually says "you sounded really good but from where I was standing the bass was really loud and boomy". Usually i tell them to stop standing in a cubby hole at the back of the room! When I raised my speaker on top of a small combo the other night I could hear myself really well, and nobody else complained they couldn't hear me so I figured it could be the way forward! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JTUK Posted October 18, 2012 Share Posted October 18, 2012 The other thing you have to consider...IMO... is that some venues are just not condusive to playing loud music. Our take on this is not to do them then.... but you could use a P.A for a mix... but that isn't likely to get around the drums being acoustically loud and harder to mix in smaller confined spaces.# And then you might have a look/listen at the sonic space the line-up takes and try and split it. A bad mix is a clash of frequencies fighting for the same space... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alexclaber Posted October 18, 2012 Share Posted October 18, 2012 Your cab is loud and can handle plenty of power and your band can't be that loud if you have a relatively quiet singer, so feel free to lift your cab as high as you need. However if you want to know more, read on... The boost in the lows that you get from having your cab on the floor doesn't vanish as soon as you lift your cab - all that happens is that instead of getting that boost from the low-mids downwards, the boost starts just working on the upper-bass down, then the mid-bass down and then the low-bass only, as the cab gets higher off the ground. With your cab on a typical chair or small combo, you'll still be getting the reinforcement on your mid and low bass (100Hz down), which is where you're most likely to need it. All this stuff is acoustic coupling and is usually a good thing. You get mechanical coupling where the floor is wobbly (wood, not concrete) and your cab's own vibrations (or the acoustic output from the cab) set it vibrating. Mechanical coupling is almost always a bad thing because it's like a big badly tuned bass drum rumbling along with your playing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ian Savage Posted October 18, 2012 Share Posted October 18, 2012 [quote name='alexclaber' timestamp='1350565600' post='1840569'] The boost in the lows that you get from having your cab on the floor doesn't vanish as soon as you lift your cab - all that happens is that instead of getting that boost from the low-mids downwards, the boost starts just working on the upper-bass down, then the mid-bass down and then the low-bass only, as the cab gets higher off the ground. With your cab on a typical chair or small combo, you'll still be getting the reinforcement on your mid and low bass (100Hz down), which is where you're most likely to need it. All this stuff is acoustic coupling and is usually a good thing. [/quote] I've actually been trying to get my head 'round this, as I have the option of putting my cab in a flightcase lid to put it about a meter from the ground; I've noticed this does subjectively 'tighten up' the sound, as well as providing a volume boost just from having the cab closer to my ears. Is the boost due to reinforcment between the direct waves from the cab and the reflections from the floor or am I barking up the wrong tree? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brensabre79 Posted October 18, 2012 Share Posted October 18, 2012 (edited) [quote name='alexclaber' timestamp='1350565600' post='1840569'] Your cab is loud and can handle plenty of power and your band can't be that loud if you have a relatively quiet singer, so feel free to lift your cab as high as you need. [/quote] Thanks Alex! I did read on btw thanks that also explains why for the first time ever I felt the need to boost the low mids very slightly when I raised the cab - normally I just run it completely flat. Edited October 18, 2012 by brensabre79 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wiggybass Posted October 18, 2012 Share Posted October 18, 2012 (edited) [quote name='brensabre79' timestamp='1350564035' post='1840540'] cheers, i tried it and it was awesome, but all the science talk - which went way above me I'm afraid - got me wondering if it was the right thing to do. The issue is, where I stand I'm right next to the drums and I'm in front of the guitarists Fender Twin - mostly this is so that her mic isn't facing it directly as she sings quietly so the mic is cranked. So generally I end up increasing my volume so I can hear myself, on-stage the balance is good but every gig someone usually says "you sounded really good but from where I was standing the bass was really loud and boomy". Usually i tell them to stop standing in a cubby hole at the back of the room! When I raised my speaker on top of a small combo the other night I could hear myself really well, and nobody else complained they couldn't hear me so I figured it could be the way forward! [/quote] Happy days!!! There is nothing quite like experimenting to find out what works...on a related note, you would probably make life easier for yourselves by trying some different mics for your singer, especially hypercardioid condenser models. These have a very tight pickup pattern and so are much better at 'not hearing' stuff you don't want them to. My favourite is the EV RE510 but there's quite a few about. Edited October 18, 2012 by Wiggybass Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brensabre79 Posted October 19, 2012 Share Posted October 19, 2012 Thanks Wiggy, yeah we have a Sennheiser 441 mic - its a super-cardioid and it rocks, and by not putting the guitar cab directly behind it we can avoid it picking up guitar when she moves off it. Unlike the SM58 which picks up guitar, drums, backstage conversations etc. We experimented with a pressure mat triggered gate for a while but its just another thing to carry around/go wrong We have things pretty sorted with the positioning now, but as I'm right on top of my amp lifting it up a foot or so was a real benefit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wiggybass Posted October 19, 2012 Share Posted October 19, 2012 [quote name='brensabre79' timestamp='1350661006' post='1841991'] Thanks Wiggy, yeah we have a Sennheiser 441 mic - its a super-cardioid and it rocks, and by not putting the guitar cab directly behind it we can avoid it picking up guitar when she moves off it. Unlike the SM58 which picks up guitar, drums, backstage conversations etc. We experimented with a pressure mat triggered gate for a while but its just another thing to carry around/go wrong We have things pretty sorted with the positioning now, but as I'm right on top of my amp lifting it up a foot or so was a real benefit. [/quote]Mmmmmmm, great mic! Supposedly the only dynamic mic with 20Hz - 20kHz frequency range - very nice indeed, I hope your simnger appreciates it! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Dark Lord Posted October 19, 2012 Share Posted October 19, 2012 [quote name='owen' timestamp='1350372276' post='1837811'] Last Friday I was messing and hooked up a TF750 to a Warwick 6x10 and a Boogie 1516. Much as I love the whole concept of small and light and super xmax and all that stuff, it really is not the same as lots of speakers pushing a lot of air [/quote] I don't think this is true at all. Maybe, if you are in a room by yourself with no other instruments and no audience and no PA. Otherwise, this is just wrong. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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