bass_ferret Posted May 5, 2008 Share Posted May 5, 2008 [quote name='stevie' post='192141' date='May 5 2008, 11:35 AM']Bass ferret, do you have any specific examples of manufacturers selling to large European retailers at prices that would allow the latter to sell at below trade cost?[/quote] I am sure it was mentioned in the Sound Control going tits thread. I am convinced that Sound Control would have fared a lot better had they provided a quality service. I know the EBS distributer personally as can be deduced from the basses I play. He is not making a fortune doing it. I also know that Sound Control had negotiated a sizeable discount because of their selling power then ordered like one pedal at a time. It is a business and high street shops can never compete with internet warehouses. But then again I like to give a little more consideration to buying gear than I do buying CD's. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevie Posted May 5, 2008 Share Posted May 5, 2008 [quote name='bass_ferret' post='192197' date='May 5 2008, 01:12 PM']I am sure it was mentioned in the Sound Control going tits thread. I am convinced that Sound Control would have fared a lot better had they provided a quality service. I know the EBS distributer personally as can be deduced from the basses I play. He is not making a fortune doing it. I also know that Sound Control had negotiated a sizeable discount because of their selling power then ordered like one pedal at a time. It is a business and high street shops can never compete with internet warehouses. But then again I like to give a little more consideration to buying gear than I do buying CD's.[/quote] It looks like the Sound Control business model was flawed because the market is too small. It could probably have worked if they had built up franchise-based business. That's one of the ways of guaranteeing good service. I think some of the hi-fi chains works on that basis. I really don't like the way retail is going in many business sectors today. I am forced to buy stuff without being able to look at it. I need a new computer monitor but I don't think there is a shop in the country with a decent stock of monitors on display. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bass_ferret Posted May 5, 2008 Share Posted May 5, 2008 [quote name='stevie' post='192457' date='May 5 2008, 08:33 PM']It looks like the Sound Control business model was flawed because the market is too small. It could probably have worked if they had built up franchise-based business. That's one of the ways of guaranteeing good service. I think some of the hi-fi chains works on that basis.[/quote] It would have worked better had they not f***ed off so many potential customers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ham fisted Bass Posted May 9, 2008 Share Posted May 9, 2008 [quote name='Crazykiwi' post='191520' date='May 4 2008, 12:18 PM']Might as well buy one new at that price and have better peace of mind.[/quote] Does GB stuff have a history of failures? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bass_ferret Posted May 9, 2008 Share Posted May 9, 2008 Dont think there are enough in the UK to from an opinion. Not until the boat comes in Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poptart Posted May 9, 2008 Share Posted May 9, 2008 [quote name='Ham fisted Bass' post='195367' date='May 9 2008, 12:36 PM']Does GB stuff have a history of failures?[/quote] No - none that I am aware of, however any product can fail which is why a good warranty is essential. Mark Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ham fisted Bass Posted May 9, 2008 Share Posted May 9, 2008 [quote name='poptart' post='195379' date='May 9 2008, 12:53 PM']No - none that I am aware of, however any product can fail which is why a good warranty is essential. Mark[/quote] Fair point any manufactured item will fail at some point - but it's when the 'product' fails mid gig that the good warranty point flounders. At that point, the warranty matters not - and having had this happen with; well, I won't say which manufacturers product but it rhymes with [i]Mesa Boogie[/i], I now have a Markbass R500. The GB shuttle 6 was never an option for the simple reason that no one can get hold of them, I seem to remember that they were due in to the UK at end of March (correct this if I'm wrong) and there are still people waiting to take delivery (early / mid May) If GB don't deliver (sic) what are the chances that your newly 'dead' shuttle will be fixed under warranty any time soon? This is of course 'if and ands' the reality is that the news from the states is that the shuttle is a really good amp - hence the interest. Personally, I like the look of the Mesa Boogie Fathom but bitter experience of [i]Mesa Boogie[/i] tells me 'NO..' listen to your head (the one on your shoulders, not the one on your speaker cab) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kiwi Posted May 9, 2008 Share Posted May 9, 2008 [quote name='Ham fisted Bass' post='195413' date='May 9 2008, 01:37 PM']Fair point any manufactured item will fail at some point - but it's when the 'product' fails mid gig that the good warranty point flounders. At that point, the warranty matters not[/quote] I'm sure Mark will stand by any warranty on the Shuttles purchased from him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wateroftyne Posted May 9, 2008 Share Posted May 9, 2008 [quote name='Ham fisted Bass' post='195413' date='May 9 2008, 01:37 PM']...it's when the 'product' fails mid gig that the good warranty point flounders. At that point, the warranty matters not - and having had this happen with; well, I won't say which manufacturers product but it rhymes with [i]Mesa Boogie[/i], I now have a Markbass R500.[/quote] I think you'd be hard-pushed to find an example of an amp from any manufacturer that hasn't failed mid-gig sometime somewhere. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poptart Posted May 9, 2008 Share Posted May 9, 2008 [quote name='Ham fisted Bass' post='195413' date='May 9 2008, 01:37 PM']Fair point any manufactured item will fail at some point - but it's when the 'product' fails mid gig that the good warranty point flounders. At that point, the warranty matters not - and having had this happen with; well, I won't say which manufacturers product but it rhymes with [i]Mesa Boogie[/i], I now have a Markbass R500. The GB shuttle 6 was never an option for the simple reason that no one can get hold of them, I seem to remember that they were due in to the UK at end of March (correct this if I'm wrong) and there are still people waiting to take delivery (early / mid May) If GB don't deliver (sic) what are the chances that your newly 'dead' shuttle will be fixed under warranty any time soon? This is of course 'if and ands' the reality is that the news from the states is that the shuttle is a really good amp - hence the interest. Personally, I like the look of the Mesa Boogie Fathom but bitter experience of [i]Mesa Boogie[/i] tells me 'NO..' listen to your head (the one on your shoulders, not the one on your speaker cab)[/quote] All opions are appreciated, I do understand that people are turned off by a product because of a bad experience. However I believe that you should look at the big picture with all products and occasionally faults do occur even with strict GC and when all reasonable precautions are taken. If the response to your problem is positive and the situation is resolved with speed and efficiency it should not put you off owning another of that companies products. If, however you feel that you were not looked after, it is the company and not the product that you have an issue with and in that I totally agree - these reputations make or break companies IMO. The delay in getting hold of this brand new product is due to the unbelievable demand from the US market which has taken a priority as it is by far and away their largest sector. Genz has an amazing record for looking after their customers, probably second to none, and that is one of the reasons I chose to work with them. In the unlikely event that any of the products we sell go faulty you can be assured that myself and the manufacturers will do everything possible to make it right - that is our customer service promise and what we effectively get paid for. Regards Mark Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ham fisted Bass Posted May 9, 2008 Share Posted May 9, 2008 [quote name='Crazykiwi' post='195417' date='May 9 2008, 01:42 PM']I'm sure Mark will stand by any warranty on the Shuttles purchased from him.[/quote] I don't doubt it. However here's a senario - Dead Amp, gig at weekend. Dead amp returned under warranty (free repair if it meets the terms of the warranty) when do you get your repaired amp back? Particularly if the manufacturer has demonstrated an esoteric relationship with delivery dates. BTW I totally accept that this is could happen from any manufacturer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wateroftyne Posted May 9, 2008 Share Posted May 9, 2008 Just to offer an independent view, Mark Poptart is right on the money. I don't own a Genz amp - I tried one but it didn't work out for me. However, Genz bent over backwards to try and make me happy. I'd happily buy from them again in the future. Their commitment to the customer is incredible. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wateroftyne Posted May 9, 2008 Share Posted May 9, 2008 [quote name='Ham fisted Bass' post='195428' date='May 9 2008, 02:00 PM']I don't doubt it. However here's a senario - Dead Amp, gig at weekend. Dead amp returned under warranty (free repair if it meets the terms of the warranty) when do you get your repaired amp back? Particularly if the manufacturer has demonstrated an esoteric relationship with delivery dates. BTW I totally accept that this is could happen from any manufacturer.[/quote] Two words: Backup amp. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ham fisted Bass Posted May 9, 2008 Share Posted May 9, 2008 [quote name='wateroftyne' post='195430' date='May 9 2008, 02:02 PM']Two words: Backup amp.[/quote] I don't leave home without one; SWR Electric Blue - two words and is SWR short for anything? ......After regaining his composure Ham fisted Bass has switched amps checked DI levels, and has missed most of the last number; now with his 'back up amp' employed as his main amp and the gig has finished; when does he get his 'main amp' fixed? - even if it is done under warranty, with a helpful distributor and 'bendy' manufacturer what is the lead time for him to see the repair carried out given that the manufacturer is servicing his largest (home) market.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kiwi Posted May 9, 2008 Share Posted May 9, 2008 [quote name='Ham fisted Bass' post='195451' date='May 9 2008, 02:33 PM']I don't leave home without one; SWR Electric Blue - two words and is SWR short for anything? ......After regaining his composure Ham fisted Bass has switched amps checked DI levels, and has missed most of the last number; now with his 'back up amp' employed as his main amp and the gig has finished; when does he get his 'main amp' fixed? - even if it is done under warranty, with a helpful distributor and 'bendy' manufacturer what is the lead time for him to see the repair carried out given that the manufacturer is servicing his largest (home) market....[/quote] Your perspective differs to so many others here, I suspect. Hey if life give you sh*t then its time to make sh*t juice... ...er, or something like that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wateroftyne Posted May 9, 2008 Share Posted May 9, 2008 (edited) [quote name='Ham fisted Bass' post='195451' date='May 9 2008, 02:33 PM']I don't leave home without one; SWR Electric Blue - two words and is SWR short for anything? ......After regaining his composure Ham fisted Bass has switched amps checked DI levels, and has missed most of the last number; now with his 'back up amp' employed as his main amp and the gig has finished; when does he get his 'main amp' fixed? - even if it is done under warranty, with a helpful distributor and 'bendy' manufacturer what is the lead time for him to see the repair carried out given that the manufacturer is servicing his largest (home) market....[/quote] That's quite a bee you have in your bonnet there, son. Given the circumstances, I think you'd better buy one of those indestructable amps that automatically regenerates itself on the spot, on the million-to-one chance it fails. Edited May 9, 2008 by wateroftyne Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ham fisted Bass Posted May 9, 2008 Share Posted May 9, 2008 [quote name='Crazykiwi' post='195460' date='May 9 2008, 02:39 PM']Hey if life give you sh*t then its time to make sh*t juice... ...er, or something like that.[/quote] I'm sorry....what does this mean? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ham fisted Bass Posted May 9, 2008 Share Posted May 9, 2008 [quote name='wateroftyne' post='195462' date='May 9 2008, 02:42 PM']That's quite a bee you have in your bonnet there, son. Given the circumstances, I think you'd better buy one of those indestructable amps that automatically regenerates itself on the spot, on the million-to-one chance it fails.[/quote] Please view Post #36 (Particulary the last bit) This post began with an ebay link - listing a GB shuttle (warranty position uncertain). The discussion soon came around to warranty and the importance of one. My point was more to do with. Why get hung up on the warranty? What is the importance of a warranty when something lets you down? Do we all only buy gear with full warranty? (and started my rant about Mesa Boogie) though in due course, a warranty it could mean free repair of your purchase. However, in this case Poptart, made a point of the importance of having a dealer warranty, meanwhile acknowledging that GB with some justification are servicing their home (and largest) market ahead of the European market. So if your UK authorised dealer purchased, GB (This may never happen - I'm not suggesting that it will) amp fails tonight? How much time will elapse before.... a - It is repaired / replaced under warranty. b - You see it again? But again, you could insert the name of any number of manufacturers in place of GB. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bass_ferret Posted May 9, 2008 Share Posted May 9, 2008 That is down to the dealer and/or distrubutor. I have no doubt that if my new GenzBenz Shuttle (when I finally get it) goes pop and is a long job to fix then Mark will lend one of his demonstration amps until the faulty amp is repaired, as he would with any of his customers. OTOH if someone had a problem with this Shuttle even if they successfully bullied Mark into sorting it under warranty he is under no obligation whatsoever to provide them with an alternative amp. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poptart Posted May 9, 2008 Share Posted May 9, 2008 [quote name='Ham fisted Bass' post='195502' date='May 9 2008, 03:47 PM']However, in this case Poptart, made a point of the importance of having a dealer warranty, meanwhile acknowledging that GB with some justification are servicing their home (and largest) market ahead of the European market. So if your UK authorised dealer purchased, GB (This may never happen - I'm not suggesting that it will) amp fails tonight? How much time will elapse before.... a - It is repaired / replaced under warranty. b - You see it again?[/quote] You seem very cynical - if it was important/urgent I would do everything to get any item repaired or replaced as fast as possible, it it wasn't then the same would be true. When you buy from box-shifting operations with low margins they are less likely to care about sorting you out. IMO you should try to use independents where at all possible as although they may be more expensive (not always) they will usually go the extra mile for you - I know that is how I work here. As far as Genz looking after their home market for the initial sales, this has nothing to do with after sales - you seem to be confusing the two. Give the market a few months and the supply chain will become less hectic and things will settle. If you buy any product when it is released it is common for shortages and problems in the supply chain - think computer game boxes for example. You can be assured that not on;y is the Genz product reliable, but you will be looked after by myself and other UK dealers if there is a problem. My original point was if you buy one from the USA or via ebay myself and other dealers will not be looking after you in the same way, whether the UK distributors will look after you is up to them, I was only trying to clarify your warranty situation, and with some manufacturers that means if you improt to another country you invalidate any warranty. I hope that clears things up a bit :-) Mark Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kiwi Posted May 9, 2008 Share Posted May 9, 2008 [quote name='Ham fisted Bass' post='195478' date='May 9 2008, 03:10 PM']I'm sorry....what does this mean?[/quote] Beats me, I heard it somewhere. Probably a bit of verbal diarrhea. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ham fisted Bass Posted May 9, 2008 Share Posted May 9, 2008 (edited) [quote name='poptart' post='195527' date='May 9 2008, 04:23 PM']You seem very cynical - if it was important/urgent I would do everything to get any item repaired or replaced as fast as possible, it it wasn't then the same would be true. When you buy from box-shifting operations with low margins they are less likely to care about sorting you out. IMO you should try to use independents where at all possible as although they may be more expensive (not always) they will usually go the extra mile for you - I know that is how I work here. As far as Genz looking after their home market for the initial sales, this has nothing to do with after sales - you seem to be confusing the two. Give the market a few months and the supply chain will become less hectic and things will settle. If you buy any product when it is released it is common for shortages and problems in the supply chain - think computer game boxes for example. You can be assured that not on;y is the Genz product reliable, but you will be looked after by myself and other UK dealers if there is a problem. My original point was if you buy one from the USA or via ebay myself and other dealers will not be looking after you in the same way, whether the UK distributors will look after you is up to them, I was only trying to clarify your warranty situation, and with some manufacturers that means if you improt to another country you invalidate any warranty. I hope that clears things up a bit :-) Mark[/quote] Mark - Please don't take offence about what I think - cynical I am, but in the case of buying from 'auction sites' I side totally with you and smaller vendors like you. If the bass playing public buy exclusively from 'auction sites' and the like based purely on price then that is all they will get - cheap, no service, no back up, no answers to trivial tech issues etc.... The big issue for most of us is that if we buy from exclusively 'auction sites' and 'box shifters' then logic dictates that independents will disappear - think independent record shops.. My rant was and still is based against manufacturers who allow cr@p to leave their factory, protected by a name, and deny any issue with their product(s) GB and the thread with the shuttle etc which mutated into warranty rights et al was more to make a 'flawed point' incorporating GB supply and warranty. If GB are six weeks late with firm orders what chance fixing a fault? (but you've answered that) Get the Shuttles in, I could do with a back up for the R500... (hope it's not a faulty batch - (joke honest)) Edited May 9, 2008 by Ham fisted Bass Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poptart Posted May 10, 2008 Share Posted May 10, 2008 [quote name='Ham fisted Bass' post='195782' date='May 10 2008, 12:20 AM']Mark - Please don't take offence about what I think - cynical I am, but in the case of buying from 'auction sites' I side totally with you and smaller vendors like you. If the bass playing public buy exclusively from 'auction sites' and the like based purely on price then that is all they will get - cheap, no service, no back up, no answers to trivial tech issues etc.... The big issue for most of us is that if we buy from exclusively 'auction sites' and 'box shifters' then logic dictates that independents will disappear - think independent record shops.. My rant was and still is based against manufacturers who allow cr@p to leave their factory, protected by a name, and deny any issue with their product(s) GB and the thread with the shuttle etc which mutated into warranty rights et al was more to make a 'flawed point' incorporating GB supply and warranty. If GB are six weeks late with firm orders what chance fixing a fault? (but you've answered that) Get the Shuttles in, I could do with a back up for the R500... (hope it's not a faulty batch - (joke honest))[/quote] I am doing my best, the shipping takes about four weeks I have been told, and that is normal, then a few days in customs - I think they must take it the other way around the world via the orient!! Regards Mark Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chopthebass Posted May 10, 2008 Share Posted May 10, 2008 With my track record for new amps developing faults, I'd definitely buy new from Poptart! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deekay911 Posted May 23, 2008 Share Posted May 23, 2008 (edited) Hands up!!! It was me selling this amp on evilbay!! I think this whole discussion around warranty is BS. How often when you buy some electrical item from a high street store do you but the 'extended warranty'? Hardly ever. Also if I buy a GB Shuttle in the US and return to the UK with it, and it malfunctions, then I call GB direct. They deal with my problem. They send me a return label, I ship to Arizona, they send me a new one by return. If I go via the original dealer, whether in the US or the UK I will wait 8 weeks again to get a replacement. This is fact, it happened to me with my first Shuttle - I had in intermittent fan issue, and after posting on Talkbass, I spoke to Jeff Genzler in person within 2 hours, and I had a new Shuttle in my hands the following day (overnight form Arizona to S.Carolina), before even sending my suspect unit back. There are other stories on Talkbass about the incredible GB service, which a dealer could never match. Today this is a small world we live in, and the fact you are in the UK means an extra couple of days shipping each way, the thing weighs 3.5 lbs, so even if you had to stump up the shipping yourself it wouldn't be the end of the world. Now I am not condoning large-scale grey imports, nor trying to put UK kosher dealers out of business, it is just a fact that with the breaking down of international economic barriers, the ease of doing business on the WWW, and the current exchange rate, then this is going to happen more and more. And at the end of the day, GB will not let you down however you obtained your amp, I guarantee it. I was selling this one with receipt if needed and all original docs. There was no danger, or criminal activity in selling this. Apologies to anyone who had problem accessing the ebay link - I had included links to pics on a hosted site and the pics were all a bit large. Now, anyone want to buy a brand new Ric 4003 in jetglo for £750 ?? :-) Edited May 23, 2008 by deekay911 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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