PlungerModerno Posted June 26, 2012 Share Posted June 26, 2012 I was looking at this article... and I read something strange. [url="http://bassmusicianmagazine.com/2012/06/ten-tips-for-getting-the-best-stage-sound-possible-for-your-bass-by-igor-saavedra/"]http://bassmusicianm...-igor-saavedra/[/url] Take a look at number 7. I'm not an Acoustic Engineer or an expert on human hearing... but isn't this a myth? [quote][color=#333333]Lower frequencies are quite longer than higher frequencies, so they need more distance to “Express themselves in your ears”.[/color][/quote] ??????????????? I thought I could hear lows in my headphones. I've seen some spec'd down to 8 Hz! Besides, You don't need a full wavelength to hear a note.... the pressure-waves are mechanically traveling between the source and the listener. If you can hear it at 10 m you should be able to hear it at 10 mm. [quote][color=#333333]The higher the volumes the more bass frequency content on your sound… always consider that![/color][/quote] ??????????????? I've read about the fletcher munsen curve, and how louder sounds better, and below about '80 dB' lows sound attenuated (I use quotes because I know I'm not using dB correctly. I need to define distance etc.). Once I am above low volumes and below the point of ear distortion... the lows pretty much keep up with the rest as far as I know. Maybe I need to read up some more. IMO the author of the article needs to too though. What do you personagables think? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Foxen Posted June 26, 2012 Share Posted June 26, 2012 The distance required before you can hear bass thing is made up, but sort of observable in some circumstances, mostly a flat ceiling and a source without mids. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LiamPodmore Posted June 26, 2012 Share Posted June 26, 2012 (edited) [QUOTE] As an example, usually a 2×10 cabinet has less low frequency response compared to a 1×15 cabinet. [/QUOTE] Bad start right there. He can't spell Aesthetical either. Liam Edit: I can't spell the word spell. Fail. Edited June 26, 2012 by LiamPodmore Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
muttley Posted June 26, 2012 Share Posted June 26, 2012 I [u]am[/u] an Acoustics Engineer (CEng, MIOA) and I can tell you that that statement is total BS. There are many factors influencing the frequency content of what you hear but if that's what he meant he has expressed his point very badly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PlungerModerno Posted June 26, 2012 Author Share Posted June 26, 2012 [quote name='Mr. Foxen' timestamp='1340720430' post='1708539'] The distance required before you can hear bass thing is made up, but sort of observable in some circumstances, mostly a flat ceiling and a source without mids. [/quote] That's what I suspected. There are a lot of 'common sense' ideas out there. I've heard it's due to comb filtering and the dreaded standing waves [quote name='LiamPodmore' timestamp='1340720538' post='1708541'] Bad start right there. He can't spelll Aesthetical either. Liam [/quote] LOL. He's chiliean so a couple of typos are OK. Hell I don't care where you're from as long as the idea comes across well, well... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Commando Jack Posted June 26, 2012 Share Posted June 26, 2012 I thought this was rich: [quote] [b]3) Choose the right amp configuration[/b] Once you know where you’ll be playing, consider the right speaker configuration and the proper Bass Head Handling Power and their entire characteristics so to know what to bring there. [/quote] Because we all have 16 different configurations of amp/cab to decide on for each gig. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PlungerModerno Posted June 26, 2012 Author Share Posted June 26, 2012 [quote name='muttley' timestamp='1340720892' post='1708552'] I [u]am[/u] an Acoustics Engineer (CEng, MIOA) and I can tell you that that statement is total BS. There are many factors influencing the frequency content of what you hear but if that's what he meant he has expressed his point very badly. [/quote] That's what I thought, and why I posted this thread. Some people simply DO know better, not sucking up just stating the fact! I, like so many others, felt Acoustics were a case of volume and Eq., putting mediocre sound down to poor performance or gear. Then I went to the Roisin Dubh in Galway. Good craic, nice shows..... but the acoustics in the main place are abysmal*. I have got into music since, and I can relate to people who aren't sound-savvy being mislead by myths, but the info is out there, and has been for 10 years or more in broad circulation. If you are a musician you should understand the basics of how sound works. Or at least if you write an article you should check your facts. *A perfect case study for an expert trouble shooter... As far as I know the sound guy is really good too.... I'd hate to hear it with a bad one! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Vader Posted June 26, 2012 Share Posted June 26, 2012 [quote name='Commando Jack' timestamp='1340721339' post='1708561'] I thought this was rich: Because we all have 16 different configurations of amp/cab to decide on for each gig. [/quote] Most BC'ers do seem to yeah.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PlungerModerno Posted June 26, 2012 Author Share Posted June 26, 2012 [quote name='Dave Vader' timestamp='1340721724' post='1708572'] Most BC'ers do seem to yeah.... [/quote] I think he's... wait a sec... 4 cabs X 4 heads.... OK... Yeah I doubt 20% of bassists have 3 or more rigs, including a practice combo. I could be wrong. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EdwardHimself Posted June 26, 2012 Share Posted June 26, 2012 (edited) It's bollocks. The soundwave does not need to be a soundwave length away from your ear to be heard properly; it's just air being pushed backwards and forwards. As long as that air being pushed backwards and forwards reaches your eardrum, it's fine. Not to mention if you have say a soundwave of frequency 40 Hz travelling at 300 m/s (typical sort of speed of sound), that would make the soundwave 7.5 metres long. You would have to be pretty far away from your amp to be a whole wavelength distance away. Edited June 26, 2012 by EdwardHimself Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PlungerModerno Posted June 26, 2012 Author Share Posted June 26, 2012 [quote name='EdwardHimself' timestamp='1340722495' post='1708598'] It's bollocks. The soundwave does not need to be a soundwave length away from your ear to be heard properly; it's just air being pushed backwards and forwards. As long as that air being pushed backwards and forwards reaches your eardrum, it's fine. [/quote] Bingo! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Commando Jack Posted June 26, 2012 Share Posted June 26, 2012 [quote name='PlungerModerno' timestamp='1340722227' post='1708592'] I think he's... wait a sec... 4 cabs X 4 heads.... OK... Yeah I doubt 20% of bassists have 3 or more rigs, including a practice combo. I could be wrong. [/quote] Remember a combo can't be split so counts as 1 configuration unless it has an extention cab output! I counted, and I have a total of 6 configurations if I include a 60 W guitar amp Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
muttley Posted June 26, 2012 Share Posted June 26, 2012 [quote name='EdwardHimself' timestamp='1340722495' post='1708598'] Not to mention if you have say a soundwave of frequency 40 Hz travelling at 300 m/s (typical sort of speed of sound), that would make the soundwave 7.5 metres long. You would have to be pretty far away from your amp to be a whole wavelength distance away. [/quote] The speed of sound is actually approx 345 m/s. Therefore at 40Hz the wavelength is just over 8.6m . If the theory as stated in that article were true, none of us would hear the fundamental of bottom E in any normal sized room . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PlungerModerno Posted June 26, 2012 Author Share Posted June 26, 2012 [quote name='Commando Jack' timestamp='1340722587' post='1708603'] Remember a combo can't be split so counts as 1 configuration unless it has an extention cab output! I counted, and I have a total of 6 configurations if I include a 60 W guitar amp [/quote] True. My combo has a speaker out, but it must bypass the speaker in it as it's 110W at 4 Ohms. You can't add a 0 Ohm cab to it!!!! Remember. It's all about the technique. You could be Wooten and sound killer on a 50W combo! Then Again vic. is better without amplification than I am with it! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EdwardHimself Posted June 26, 2012 Share Posted June 26, 2012 (edited) [quote name='muttley' timestamp='1340723223' post='1708620'] The speed of sound is actually approx 345 m/s. Therefore at 40Hz the wavelength is just over 8.6m . If the theory as stated in that article were true, none of us would hear the fundamental of bottom E in any normal sized room . [/quote] Well ok, I was just using rough numbers. It could be 300 m/s but the air would have to be at -50 °C lol. Edited June 26, 2012 by EdwardHimself Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PlungerModerno Posted June 26, 2012 Author Share Posted June 26, 2012 [quote name='muttley' timestamp='1340723223' post='1708620'] The speed of sound is actually approx 345 m/s. Therefore at 40Hz the wavelength is just over 8.6m . If the theory as stated in that article were true, none of us would hear the fundamental of bottom E in any normal sized room . [/quote] I remember being told 'all the threes'.... i.e. at sea level, at room temperature it's around 333 m/s .... give or take some... If you need more precise numbers the relative humidity, and other effects might come into play. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EdwardHimself Posted June 26, 2012 Share Posted June 26, 2012 [quote name='PlungerModerno' timestamp='1340723713' post='1708642'] I remember being told 'all the threes'.... i.e. at sea level, at room temperature it's around 333 m/s .... give or take some... If you need more precise numbers the relative humidity, and other effects might come into play. [/quote] According to my quick calculations, it is 343 m/s. I think if you were worrying about things like relative humidity, you would be looking at very precise numbers seeing as it doesn't have a massive effect on the density of the air. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
muttley Posted June 26, 2012 Share Posted June 26, 2012 Close enough for rock 'n' roll, as we used to say . Another useful yardstick is that the wavelength at 1kHz is about a foot. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PlungerModerno Posted June 26, 2012 Author Share Posted June 26, 2012 [quote name='EdwardHimself' timestamp='1340724130' post='1708650'] According to my quick calculations, it is 343 m/s. I think if you were worrying about things like relative humidity, you would be looking at very precise numbers seeing as it doesn't have a massive effect on the density of the air. [/quote] [quote name='muttley' timestamp='1340724368' post='1708655'] Close enough for rock 'n' roll, as we used to say . Another useful yardstick is that the wavelength at 1kHz is about a foot. [/quote] Cool. I guess if I need to do calculations I'll check for worked examples, and review the theory. I think understanding that sound* is waves of pressure in air is more important than being able to cite numbers, especially for acoustically challenged musicians like us bassists. *sound in the colloquial sense. I think the technical definition is 'sound energy' or somesuch. I like acoustics. I sound less bad when I troubleshoot sound issues. I guess it's kinda like signal chain. You don't need to be an expert to have a basic knowledge. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EdwardHimself Posted June 26, 2012 Share Posted June 26, 2012 [quote name='PlungerModerno' timestamp='1340724878' post='1708661'] I think understanding that sound* is waves of pressure in air is more important than being able to cite numbers, especially for acoustically challenged musicians like us bassists. [/quote] Well it depends how far you want to go with it. You would be amazed at how much a little bit of maths knowledge helps your understanding of in-depth science. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PlungerModerno Posted June 26, 2012 Author Share Posted June 26, 2012 [quote name='EdwardHimself' timestamp='1340726053' post='1708687'] Well it depends how far you want to go with it. You would be amazed at how much a little bit of maths knowledge helps your understanding of in-depth science. [/quote] Aye. If you have some working formulae, like V = IR, F = ma (in SI), basic algebra & trig, and the other basic problem solving tools... you can go far. Stuff like "High voltage is an arcing risk" or "High current means heating" are pretty useful too. I think the best lesson a little knowledge gives, hopefully, is when to know when you're over your head. E.g. If you understand a tube amp has High voltage circutry... be very careful or give it to a good tech... and if you do open her up.... UNPLUG THE POWER!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EdwardHimself Posted June 26, 2012 Share Posted June 26, 2012 [quote name='PlungerModerno' timestamp='1340735449' post='1708950'] Aye. If you have some working formulae, like V = IR, F = ma (in SI), basic algebra & trig, and the other basic problem solving tools... you can go far. Stuff like "High voltage is an arcing risk" or "High current means heating" are pretty useful too. I think the best lesson a little knowledge gives, hopefully, is when to know when you're over your head. E.g. If you understand a tube amp has High voltage circutry... be very careful or give it to a good tech... and if you do open her up.... UNPLUG THE POWER!!! [/quote] Possibly. Unfortunately I think for a lot of people a little knowledge is a very dangerous thing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
discreet Posted June 26, 2012 Share Posted June 26, 2012 [quote name='Commando Jack' timestamp='1340721339' post='1708561'] Because we all have 16 different configurations of amp/cab to decide on for each gig. [/quote] Ha! Yes, and we always know exactly what the room will be like before we get there... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PlungerModerno Posted June 26, 2012 Author Share Posted June 26, 2012 [quote name='EdwardHimself' timestamp='1340737679' post='1708998'] Possibly. Unfortunately I think for a lot of people a little knowledge is a very dangerous thing. [/quote] Very true, perhaps the 'hopefully' in my previous post should be an 'ideally'.... But you know what they say... As soon as you invent an idiot proof device... somebody invents a better idiot. [quote name='discreet' timestamp='1340738704' post='1709012'] Ha! Yes, and we always know exactly what the room will be like before we get there... [/quote] But of course. Everyone travels to the venue a day in advance and does extensive sound checking.... (assuming it's open) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Foxen Posted June 26, 2012 Share Posted June 26, 2012 [quote name='PlungerModerno' timestamp='1340735449' post='1708950'] Aye. If you have some working formulae, like V = IR, F = ma (in SI), basic algebra & trig, and the other basic problem solving tools... you can go far. Stuff like "High voltage is an arcing risk" or "High current means heating" are pretty useful too. I think the best lesson a little knowledge gives, hopefully, is when to know when you're over your head. E.g. If you understand a tube amp has High voltage circutry... be very careful or give it to a good tech... and if you do open her up.... UNPLUG THE POWER!!! [/quote] The danger part of a tube amp is that unplugging it doesn't stop it biting you. Which is the best lesson on electrical safety. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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