Should backline really be frontline ?

[plumbob]

Played a gig last night in a room that has given me problems before but not quite as bad.
Stone walled barn, wooden floor and cathedral ceiling.

Basically set up in the normal way with backline amp and cabs behind me. Started playing could just about hear myself, and then the sound guy brought up the volume on the PA subwoofer and my bass backline disappeared. This meant that I was trying to monitor myself from the front PA sub that was approx 6 metres or more diagonally opposed to me. Also created timing issues as the drummer couldn’t hear my backline either and ended up trying to play off the sound reflection coming from the back of the room.
I have come across this situation before but probably not quite a bad, so it got me wondering have we got it all wrong and really should have our backline laid out in front of us?

Anyone for some frontline !!!

[Lozz196]

My fave is when the sound-person tells you that your amp - which you have set up so you can hear yourself onstage - is too loud through the FOH, so could you turn it down, and they will up your volume through the vocal monitors so you can hear yourself.

Why not use the volume control on the FOH for your amp, for the FOH mix, leave the volume on your amp at the levels you need for on-stage monitoring, and additionally leave the vocal monitors for vocals only?

Maybe I have too simplistic a viewpoint?

[rOB]

[quote name='plumbob' timestamp='1336901875' post='1652418']
This meant that I was trying to monitor myself from the front PA sub that was approx 6 metres or more diagonally opposed to me. Also created timing issues as the drummer couldn’t hear my backline either and ended up trying to play off the sound reflection coming from the back of the room.
I have come across this situation before but probably not quite a bad, so it got me wondering have we got it all wrong and really should have our backline laid out in front of us?
[/quote]

Sorry if I'm misunderstanding this bit but I'm with you on having backline speakers not pointing straight forward when using a PA.

I sometimes have my speakers pointing diagonally back and across the stage. The theory is that there sound be less leakage into the audience (so the sound tech can do their thing) and seems to give better monitoring for me and the drummer than if the bass cabs point directly forwards (i.e. away from the drummer).

No sound tech has ever mentioned it causing problems for them and on the little stages I tend to play on, it means that we don't need any bass in the monitors.

Anyone else ever done this? Any sound techs see a problem with it?

[Maverick]

[quote name='Lozz196' timestamp='1336903482' post='1652444']
My fave is when the sound-person tells you that your amp - which you have set up so you can hear yourself onstage - is too loud through the FOH, so could you turn it down, and they will up your volume through the vocal monitors so you can hear yourself.

Why not use the volume control on the FOH for your amp, for the FOH mix, leave the volume on your amp at the levels you need for on-stage monitoring, and additionally leave the vocal monitors for vocals only?

Maybe I have too simplistic a viewpoint?
[/quote]

If I'm understanding what you're saying correctly, I don't think they mean that your bass is coming through too loud in the FOH PA mix because of the volume at the amp - it's that your bass amp itself can be heard too loudly at FOH and therefore the soundguy has no control over how it's sitting in the FOH PA mix. Therefore you need to turn down at the amp so that the FOH mix levels can make any difference whatsoever.

[chrismuzz]

I've come across bands having the amps facing sideways quite often, works really well actually but then you don't get to show off your prized gear collection

Generally I prefer not going through the PA though because in anything smaller than say, the London Astoria, you simply don't need it

[BigRedX]

Plus unless it's a massive multichannel foldback with side fills every extra instrument you put through it makes life a bit more difficult for those who need the foldback most - singers and quiet instruments without their own amplification.

[LawrenceH]

[quote name='Lozz196' timestamp='1336903482' post='1652444']
Why not use the volume control on the FOH for your amp, for the FOH mix, leave the volume on your amp at the levels you need for on-stage monitoring, and additionally leave the vocal monitors for vocals only?
[/quote]

Typically it's the directional higher frequencies which you need for monitoring, but then are too loud for the overall mix. Setting up your rig so these are firing straight at your ears but not necessarily out towards the front can save a lot of mix problems.

[plumbob]

Lozz that’s pretty much what we do already, and its only vocals through monitor wedges, I think its more to do with the way the FOH PA sub can and will cancel out my backline so you end up with no way of monitoring your own bass except off reflections etc. Our sound guy had a good sound out front but the reflections from the room were playing havoc with us.

rOB Glad to hear that’s how you do it, cause that’s what I’m thinking of doing, hence that’s why I’m thinking we have all got it wrong!

Practicalities might be a problem, but I can certainly see the sense in having speakers facing you to monitor yourself, rather than the stereotypical wall of Marshalls behind you!

[essexbasscat]

Sounds like your sound engineer is not really considering the role of the bass or other low frequency generators here. If the engineer wants to use FOH subs like that, it would be to the band's advantage to have monitor foldback onstage for all the instruments that generate low frequencies, bass and drums included. Otherwise there will be competition for low frequency space, with all the problems that competition generates.

Just my 2p.

[rOB]

[quote name='plumbob' timestamp='1336907191' post='1652518']
rOB Glad to hear that’s how you do it, cause that’s what I’m thinking of doing, hence that’s why I’m thinking we have all got it wrong!
[/quote]

Yep, seems to work for me. I use a small cabinet on an amp stand pointed diagonally at my ears and back towards the drummer.

[gafbass02]

I quite often put my backline off to the side facing me, works great.
Except for the time we were on tour with Dokken and they were using our backline.

Don Dokken stomping around backstage: "Who's idea was it to put the bass amp at the side of the stage?! It was crushing my skull!"

(it was a trace AH400smx stack on like two.)

(I fessed up, ha calmed down, their drummer found it hilarious and insisted he be ignored at every opportunity lol)

[musophilr]

Looking at combo amplifiers of earlier years (eg AC30, Bluesbreaker) it would seem that they were intended to be put in front of the user. Why else would the control panel be that way round if you were supposed to stand the amplifier behind you? It's not often I've seen them used this way (if at all) but if you did, it would direct your sound out front where it's wanted and leave you enough to monitor with from the open back of the cabinet.

In a venue large enough to require a big PA for everything I guess you could put your backline anyplace you liked where it served your monitoring purposes best (so long as you had a wall of dummy stacks at the back to look cool), but in smaller places you've always got that compromise of the backline having to serve as both a monitor and throw the sound forward to the audience. Maybe bands should all use JamHubs with InEarMonitoring and their favourite amplifiers in acoustically sealed boxes at the back with microphones in, with one lot of sends going to the PA.

[Lozz196]

[quote name='Maverick' timestamp='1336906250' post='1652497']
If I'm understanding what you're saying correctly, I don't think they mean that your bass is coming through too loud in the FOH PA mix because of the volume at the amp - it's that your bass amp itself can be heard too loudly at FOH and therefore the soundguy has no control over how it's sitting in the FOH PA mix. Therefore you need to turn down at the amp so that the FOH mix levels can make any difference whatsoever.
[/quote]

No, it was at a gig I did with a house 100 watt solid state combo, that, even on full, could barely be heard on stage - whereas all of the other instruments could be heard, quite clearly. In all honesty, it would have made no difference to the FOH sound with that amp if i`d turned it around to face it towards the wall at the back.

I understand what you mean, if you`re amp is too loud on stage and it affects the FOH, then it needs to come down. But when, all it takes is a simple beat on the drums for the amp to become virtually inaudible FOH, and completely inaudible on stage, to be asked to turn it down made no sense to me.

And to then have the bass through the vocal monitors, after the sound-man stating he could`t put any more volume on the vocs through them - which were also inaudible - all 4 bands that night couldn`t hear the vocs through them - just made even less sense.

I suppose the reason it all makes no sense is that in my other band, with our own much smaller pa than was used, we manage to put everything through it with no trouble, have our backline at the levels needed, and the vocs are crystal clear through the monitors. That`s why I don`t understand why someone with a far bigger, more expensive system wasn`t able to do this.