Recommendations for powerful sensitive cab

[Muzz]

2000w solid state to equal 100w valve? Really? Wow, just wow.

[Guest MoJo]

Are valve amps really that much more powerful than solid state?

[Muzz]

[quote name='bassman2790' timestamp='1332514230' post='1589463']
Are valve amps really that much more powerful than solid state?
[/quote]

No.

[bertbass]

I sense a little doubt here. Why don't you try it and see, you may be surprised. Also, try turning the bass on your solid state head to full and see how loud it doesn't go.

Edited March 23, 2012 by bertbass

[Guest MoJo]

[quote name='bertbass' timestamp='1332515695' post='1589485']
Also, try turning the bass on your solid state head to full and see how loud it doesn't go.
[/quote]

Like it

Any recommendations for a beefy valve amp?

[Muzz]

Bertbass, you sense more than a little doubt, especially about 100/2000 watt amp equivalence. I've had a fair few solid state heads (that's owned and used in anger onstage and in the studio, rather than tried out in shops) and I've never had an issue with volume or bass - my current setup has a particular voice which is more low mids (the TC Classic and RH450 don't have masses of bottom end, which is fine for me), but I've had previous SS setups with a ton of bass. None of them were 2KW, and with all of them I was using my ears. - I find them invaluable for listening to things.

I've also owned an all-valve SVT, and it was no louder in the bottom end than much of the solid state stuff. By your reckoning, I'd need 6000W of solid state to compete. You can see where the doubt emanates.

Maybe it's a time issue - as you say in your first post, when 'tranny amps' first came out, there possibly was a large discrepancy, but things (especially in the SS world) have moved on a good deal since then.

[dan670844]

[quote name='bassman2790' timestamp='1332494507' post='1588990']
I play in a rock covers band and currently run a Trace 1215 with a 1518 extension cab. On paper, this rig should be more than ample for my requirements but, as with previous rigs, I find it lacking and have to have the output control on about 5 or 6 (about as loud as it'll go) to provide enough body for the four piece outfit I'm with.

Previously, I ran a Peavey Max 450 into two 4ohm 410TVX's and before that, a 1500w Laney B1 into two Marshall MBC410's and found the same issue. I feel it may be down to the sensitivity and performance of the cabs rather than the amp as I get into a similar situation driving the Trace cabs with my Promethean head.

I need someone to recommend a cab or cabs that will be up to the job. Preferably something I could buy second hand as I don't have thousands to spend. Not too worried about weight, just fed up of spending out on gear only to end up in the same situation.
[/quote]
Iif its any help im playing In the zz top cover band Tres hombres at the moment, for a few shows, haha! ( helping a mate out, the beard is itchy though!) Im primarily a funk reggae bass player so this is all new to me! I usually play pretty clean.I used my trace smx head in the first rehearsal it sounded sh*t, to clean, too focussed, there was something missing in the sound, didnt fill out the huge space inbeetween the drums and that single geetar! Next rehearsal i brought along my ashdown little bastard 30 watt through their lb212 cab turned it up full! cranked the mids and there it was, that little amp plugged that big hole. Cant be the power of the amp, the smx is 1200 watts, i think its all that harmonic distortion filling in all the gaps, from the lowest lows to rhythm guitar territory. it was pretty stunning ( rehearsal volume though) Im using a traynor yba300 for this gig through a basssysteme 6x10 cab, its an awesome amp, only 800 quid from thommann.de. I tried the yba 200 (500 quid and yes it is loud enough!) as well also a great amp. Bombproof and insanely light at 19kg and 23kg respectively. trace cabs are great they are quite sensitive over 100db if you check the spec, as are the Ashdown ABMs and Mags, just turn the tweater off else it sounds nasty and crank that gain, i think if you paired your 1518 with a tweater off 1028 , and one of these traynors you will be sorted. if your rich check out the Ashdown CTM and the small block, they are in a different league.

Edited March 23, 2012 by dan670844

[Lozz196]

If some real low end is needed, add a pedal. Cheaper way of achieving this than buying a new amp.

When I use my MXR M80 with the Colour Switch engaged (adds bass and top end, scoops mids) I have way too much lows for my punk covers band. For a Nikki Sixx type rumbling bass line, however, it would be great, or reggae thud. Plus, added bonus of a DI in case of amp failure. The Sansamp is also good for this. Stick either in front of a solid state amp, and thick beefy lows in abundance.

[Mr. Foxen]

[quote name='bertbass' timestamp='1332515695' post='1589485']
I sense a little doubt here. Why don't you try it and see, you may be surprised. Also, try turning the bass on your solid state head to full and see how loud it doesn't go.
[/quote]

You know that is totally down to the fact SS preamp means you actually can get a significant low boost, whilst a passive preamp as usually found on valve amps will pretty much just scoop mids and give a midbass hump instead?

[bigjohn]

This thread is dead funny.

OP, you have a choice. Either EQ differently with your current rig, which is what I'd do. Or get a new rig. As you've said you want a new rig, get one.

If you want lows, you need to start off with cabs that do lows. If you want to do lows at high volumes, you need efficient cabs and or [i]lots of power[/i], power to produce these lows. I don't think I've seen one suggestion that's anywhere near. TC and Schroeders are no good at all for this.

I'd suggest you look for a powerful power amp, and an efficient and full range cab or two. Use your Trace as a pre-amp until you find a poweramp / cab combo that does it for you. Then get a preamp you like and ditch the Trace.

To be honest though, having been through this myself... eventually, what I think you'll end up with is an expensive, very nice amp, which you'll love. It won't be millions of miles away from your TE though. You could just EQ the TE right [i][u][b]AND[/b][/u][/i] get the others in the band to EQ right, which essentially, would be free. Considering the venues you're playing, that's probably better advice.

We'd all spend a lot less money on amps if we learned how to ask guitarists to turn their bass down rather than looking to turn our own volume up.

Edited March 24, 2012 by bigjohn

[pete.young]

A Peavey 450 into two 410TVXs wasn't loud enough? Wow. I had one of those cabs and it was plenty loud for anything I wanted to do with it, the only problem with it was the weight. There must be more to this than meets the eye.

Definitely have a look at EQ, both you and the guitarist. If that sorts things out, it's a cheap option.

[Guest MoJo]

[quote name='bigjohn' timestamp='1332553472' post='1590112']
This thread is dead funny.

OP, you have a choice. Either EQ differently with your current rig, which is what I'd do. Or get a new rig. As you've said you want a new rig, get one.

If you want lows, you need to start off with cabs that do lows. If you want to do lows at high volumes, you need efficient cabs and or [i]lots of power[/i], power to produce these lows. I don't think I've seen one suggestion that's anywhere near. TC and Schroeders are no good at all for this.

I'd suggest you look for a powerful power amp, and an efficient and full range cab or two. Use your Trace as a pre-amp until you find a poweramp / cab combo that does it for you. Then get a preamp you like and ditch the Trace.

To be honest though, having been through this myself... eventually, what I think you'll end up with is an expensive, very nice amp, which you'll love. It won't be millions of miles away from your TE though. You could just EQ the TE right [i][u][b]AND[/b][/u][/i] get the others in the band to EQ right, which essentially, would be free. Considering the venues you're playing, that's probably better advice.

We'd all spend a lot less money on amps if we learned how to ask guitarists to turn their bass down rather than looking to turn our own volume up.
[/quote]

Wise words Big John. I'm going to try re-EQ'ing the Trace first before doing anything else

[dan670844]

[quote name='bigjohn' timestamp='1332553472' post='1590112']
This thread is dead funny.

OP, you have a choice. Either EQ differently with your current rig, which is what I'd do. Or get a new rig. As you've said you want a new rig, get one.

If you want lows, you need to start off with cabs that do lows. If you want to do lows at high volumes, you need efficient cabs and or [i]lots of power[/i], power to produce these lows. I don't think I've seen one suggestion that's anywhere near. TC and Schroeders are no good at all for this.

I'd suggest you look for a powerful power amp, and an efficient and full range cab or two. Use your Trace as a pre-amp until you find a poweramp / cab combo that does it for you. Then get a preamp you like and ditch the Trace.

To be honest though, having been through this myself... eventually, what I think you'll end up with is an expensive, very nice amp, which you'll love. It won't be millions of miles away from your TE though. You could just EQ the TE right [i][u][b]AND[/b][/u][/i] get the others in the band to EQ right, which essentially, would be free. Considering the venues you're playing, that's probably better advice.

We'd all spend a lot less money on amps if we learned how to ask guitarists to turn their bass down rather than looking to turn our own volume up.
[/quote]

A Trace 1518 cab can do lows very well indeed and all their cabs are very sensitive! The original poster was also using 2 410s in the past and had the same problem! Traces have a lot of power and a very high transient response, they always have, so they can dump a lot of current to produce thick lows, as they are have a multi transistor bipolar output stage and oversized transformers. I would agree that the guitarist needs to eq, but it is not always the case. You can have thick deep guitar, but to cut through as a bass player you need a grindy bass tone, with a lot of mid content. I give ZZtop and Motorhead as one of numerous examples. A lot of bass players in this situation use tube amps, or even tube guitar amps, lemmy, dusty hill. This kind of thing is much easier on a tube amp, just crank the mids, crank the amp, there you go, with all those harmonics and the dynamic compression it cuts through guitars like a knife, and it sounds great in the mix.

I think the op in the mean time should try this on his eq push the 100hz up, Push up the mids a bit i.e around 400hz in a curve either side. The so called frown face with a 100hz bump. This is what a SVT does with a 8x10. 100hz bump and roaring mids. Come to think of it why not try a sansamp on svt setting into the poweramp in on the trace. Not as good as real tube, but good enough! Then you will have a versatile setup to cover most situations.

[alexclaber]

If you want a truly clean sound then a 300W valve amp won't even be as loud as an equally good 500W solidstate amp. The dirtier a sound you like, the fewer valve watts you can get away with.

[Guest MoJo]

Thanks Alex, I wish I could afford a Super 15. You don't take part-ex's do you? lol

[bertbass]

Hi all, I must confess to being a tad provocative here but a quick read of this, http://www.sengpielaudio.com/calculator-levelchange.htm, and this, http://www.gcaudio.com/resources/howtos/voltageloudness.html, ignore the maths, will show that all things being equal, you would need a 1000w amp to be twice as loud as 100w, a 10db increase in volume. Doubling of the power of an amp would only give an increase of 3db which is 1.23 times the loudness, not a lot really and probably hardly noticeable.

I have played with the same band for 25 years and the backline and drums have remained constant, apart for the bass gear, in all that time I have had a good real world chance to try different things. I wish I could be happy with my sound and although I always am, the dreaded GAS keeps raising its ugly head.

The guitarist uses an AC30. An amp that defies all logic as far as volume is concerned. It's a 3 piece and I do the sound checks and guitar and drums do as they're told as far as sound and volume goes. We play anywhere but mainly pubs and clubs and we all know what the volume restrictions are like in these venues and the volumes are rarely loud enough to need PA support.

When the band started I was using a valve Hiwatt 100w. No problem in the bass dept. and I loved the sound, but could it be better? Hiwatt sold, how I regret that and Peavey 700w Firebass takes it place. Suddenly the bass can't keep up with an AC30. What? The Peavey broke so I got a Carvin R1000 head. Nice amp but still couldn't keep up with an AC30. Strangely, the R1000 broke as well so got a Carvin B1500. This puts out 1900w at 2 ohms so is just about twice as loud as 100w head and it's a fantastic amp and I've still got it and at last a ss amp that's loud enough to keep up with an AC30. You guessed it. GAS again. I've now got a Mywatt 200 and it's brilliant with volume to spare. The AC30 has never been used flat out and while the position of the volume knob means not a lot, it is quite often set at one.

My experience if just that, using valve and ss amps live. Valve amps generally have passive eq so you take away tone away to get the sound. SS amps have active eq so you add tone to get your sound. A sweeping generalization but you know what I mean. Turn up the bass on a ss amp and you drain the power supply so not a lot of volume. Again a sweeping generalization, but is you like a sound rich in mids then a ss amp is probably fine but if like me you like a lot of bass in your sound and little middle, ss amps are not man enough and only valves will do unless you have a 2000w amp of course.

Once used an HH 130w bass head with a country band and the two 30w equipped guitarists drowned be out.

I bought a Behringer 450 watt head as a spare. I only used it once to try it out and no one could hear a note and it was flat out. I know it's Behringer but that was ridiculous.

[dan670844]

[quote name='bertbass' timestamp='1332596927' post='1590474']
Hi all, I must confess to being a tad provocative here but a quick read of this, http://www.sengpielaudio.com/calculator-levelchange.htm, and this, http://www.gcaudio.com/resources/howtos/voltageloudness.html, ignore the maths, will show that all things being equal, you would need a 1000w amp to be twice as loud as 100w, a 10db increase in volume. Doubling of the power of an amp would only give an increase of 3db which is 1.23 times the loudness, not a lot really and probably hardly noticeable.

I have played with the same band for 25 years and the backline and drums have remained constant, apart for the bass gear, in all that time I have had a good real world chance to try different things. I wish I could be happy with my sound and although I always am, the dreaded GAS keeps raising its ugly head.

The guitarist uses an AC30. An amp that defies all logic as far as volume is concerned. It's a 3 piece and I do the sound checks and guitar and drums do as they're told as far as sound and volume goes. We play anywhere but mainly pubs and clubs and we all know what the volume restrictions are like in these venues and the volumes are rarely loud enough to need PA support.

When the band started I was using a valve Hiwatt 100w. No problem in the bass dept. and I loved the sound, but could it be better? Hiwatt sold, how I regret that and Peavey 700w Firebass takes it place. Suddenly the bass can't keep up with an AC30. What? The Peavey broke so I got a Carvin R1000 head. Nice amp but still couldn't keep up with an AC30. Strangely, the R1000 broke as well so got a Carvin B1500. This puts out 1900w at 2 ohms so is just about twice as loud as 100w head and it's a fantastic amp and I've still got it and at last a ss amp that's loud enough to keep up with an AC30. You guessed it. GAS again. I've now got a Mywatt 200 and it's brilliant with volume to spare. The AC30 has never been used flat out and while the position of the volume knob means not a lot, it is quite often set at one.

My experience if just that, using valve and ss amps live. Valve amps generally have passive eq so you take away tone away to get the sound. SS amps have active eq so you add tone to get your sound. A sweeping generalization but you know what I mean. Turn up the bass on a ss amp and you drain the power supply so not a lot of volume. Again a sweeping generalization, but is you like a sound rich in mids then a ss amp is probably fine but if like me you like a lot of bass in your sound and little middle, ss amps are not man enough and only valves will do unless you have a 2000w amp of course.

Once used an HH 130w bass head with a country band and the two 30w equipped guitarists drowned be out.

I bought a Behringer 450 watt head as a spare. I only used it once to try it out and no one could hear a note and it was flat out. I know it's Behringer but that was ridiculous.
[/quote]

Depends what you mean by Bass, Tube amps push a lot of loud out at 100hz solid state jobs go much lower than that, people percieve them as loud because of this and the fact that the tubes are dynamically compressing the signal and combine this with all the in tune harmonics they produce, this gives that perception of loudness. Our ears are very sensitive to mid range signals thats why that AC30 seems so loud. Tube amps push a lot of output At the low end of this mid range, hence why they sound loud for so few watts. They are great for loud guitar rock because of this, but i would say they have limited application in other genres. Although a lot of Svt have been used for reggae as the solid tone in that comes from around 100hz and attentuated highs. Of course this could be sh*te, im sitting in the garden with a beer waiting for my sausage to burn on the gas flamethrower.....

[bigjohn]

[quote name='dan670844' timestamp='1332580112' post='1590201']
A Trace 1518 cab can do lows very well indeed and all their cabs are very sensitive! The original poster was also using 2 410s in the past and had the same problem! Traces have a lot of power and a very high transient response, they always have, so they can dump a lot of current to produce thick lows, as they are have a multi transistor bipolar output stage and oversized transformers. I would agree that the guitarist needs to eq, but it is not always the case. You can have thick deep guitar, but to cut through as a bass player you need a grindy bass tone, with a lot of mid content. I give ZZtop and Motorhead as one of numerous examples. A lot of bass players in this situation use tube amps, or even tube guitar amps, lemmy, dusty hill. This kind of thing is much easier on a tube amp, just crank the mids, crank the amp, there you go, with all those harmonics and the dynamic compression it cuts through guitars like a knife, and it sounds great in the mix.

I think the op in the mean time should try this on his eq push the 100hz up, Push up the mids a bit i.e around 400hz in a curve either side. The so called frown face with a 100hz bump. This is what a SVT does with a 8x10. 100hz bump and roaring mids. Come to think of it why not try a sansamp on svt setting into the poweramp in on the trace. Not as good as real tube, but good enough! Then you will have a versatile setup to cover most situations.
[/quote]

How good or appropriate the TE rig is or should be doesn't really make any difference in the end if the OP can't EQ how he wants and end up being heard.

Which I why I said he should EQ differently and / or ask the band to EQ differently. Otherwise there's no option other than changing gear.

[LawrenceH]

Don't take this the wrong way, but it might be worth checking your ears if you've been playing loud for a long while. A lot of musos pick up on hearing problems because of 'deficiencies' in their tone

Edited March 24, 2012 by LawrenceH

[charic]

[quote name='bigjohn' timestamp='1332553472' post='1590112']
We'd all spend a lot less money on amps if we learned how to ask guitarists to turn their bass down rather than looking to turn our own volume up.
[/quote]

We'd probably all sound better as a band too

[charic]

[quote name='LawrenceH' timestamp='1332601286' post='1590543']
Don't take this the wrong way, but it might be worth checking your ears if you've been playing loud for a long while. A lot of musos pick up on hearing problems because of 'deficiencies' in their tone
[/quote]

I was starting to think the same

[Mr. Foxen]

[quote name='bertbass' timestamp='1332596927' post='1590474']
Hi all, I must confess to being a tad provocative here but a quick read of this, [url="http://www.sengpielaudio.com/calculator-levelchange.htm"]http://www.sengpiela...levelchange.htm[/url], and this, [url="http://www.gcaudio.com/resources/howtos/voltageloudness.html"]http://www.gcaudio.c...geloudness.html[/url], ignore the maths, will show that all things being equal, you would need a 1000w amp to be twice as loud as 100w, a 10db increase in volume. Doubling of the power of an amp would only give an increase of 3db which is 1.23 times the loudness, not a lot really and probably hardly noticeable.

I have played with the same band for 25 years and the backline and drums have remained constant, apart for the bass gear, in all that time I have had a good real world chance to try different things. I wish I could be happy with my sound and although I always am, the dreaded GAS keeps raising its ugly head.

The guitarist uses an AC30. An amp that defies all logic as far as volume is concerned. It's a 3 piece and I do the sound checks and guitar and drums do as they're told as far as sound and volume goes. We play anywhere but mainly pubs and clubs and we all know what the volume restrictions are like in these venues and the volumes are rarely loud enough to need PA support.

When the band started I was using a valve Hiwatt 100w. No problem in the bass dept. and I loved the sound, but could it be better? Hiwatt sold, how I regret that and Peavey 700w Firebass takes it place. Suddenly the bass can't keep up with an AC30. What? The Peavey broke so I got a Carvin R1000 head. Nice amp but still couldn't keep up with an AC30. Strangely, the R1000 broke as well so got a Carvin B1500. This puts out 1900w at 2 ohms so is just about twice as loud as 100w head and it's a fantastic amp and I've still got it and at last a ss amp that's loud enough to keep up with an AC30. You guessed it. GAS again. I've now got a Mywatt 200 and it's brilliant with volume to spare. The AC30 has never been used flat out and while the position of the volume knob means not a lot, it is quite often set at one.

My experience if just that, using valve and ss amps live. Valve amps generally have passive eq so you take away tone away to get the sound. SS amps have active eq so you add tone to get your sound. A sweeping generalization but you know what I mean. Turn up the bass on a ss amp and you drain the power supply so not a lot of volume. Again a sweeping generalization, but is you like a sound rich in mids then a ss amp is probably fine but if like me you like a lot of bass in your sound and little middle, ss amps are not man enough and only valves will do unless you have a 2000w amp of course.

Once used an HH 130w bass head with a country band and the two 30w equipped guitarists drowned be out.

I bought a Behringer 450 watt head as a spare. I only used it once to try it out and no one could hear a note and it was flat out. I know it's Behringer but that was ridiculous.
[/quote]

You've misidentified pretty much all the factors there. The Firebass goes really low, and has a low bass eq knob, most cabs can't cope with it, it destroys things, because it has so much bass. If you want mids, the harmonics provided by a mildly distorting valve amp will give them to you, but they won't give you nearly as much bass as a more powerful SS amp. With high power solid state amps the excursion limit of your cab is you major limiting factor.

[bertbass]

I am enjoying my grandaughters bithday party at a brewers fayre at the moment. I recon that it doesn't matter what the reasons are for the perceived loudness of valve amps, they sound louder. I'm quite happy with that and again whatever the reasons, .i love the sound of valves. I just suggest to the OP that he gives valves a try. He might find that his problems are solved but then again he may not. I love this forum, all the best to all.

[dan670844]

[quote name='bigjohn' timestamp='1332600690' post='1590534']
How good or appropriate the TE rig is or should be doesn't really make any difference in the end if the OP can't EQ how he wants and end up being heard.

Which I why I said he should EQ differently and / or ask the band to EQ differently. Otherwise there's no option other than changing gear.
[/quote]

True, but we are talking about not just the trace rig here, but two other rigs as well with the same result. Yes you are right about the Q.I was making the point that cabs arent the issue, they are quality units with good drivers. . Yes you can change all the EQ of the band but you will destroy the sound of the band, listen to Billy Gibbons Guitar tone, he turns the treble off and cuts the mids, Granted his Marshall has a linked tone stack, so the treble roll off is not so severe as would be from and James or Bandaxall tone stack but he is bass heavy all the same. Nothing wrong with it, That geezer out of biffy clyro is also beefy and low, its a credible tone, A roaring tube amp will cut through very easily, and of course a properly Q solid state amp for this guitar style will also do the same, but not as well!

[Guest MoJo]

They're the strings that came with the SR5 I got from BC'er Russ. As I said before, I don't have a problem with cutting through the mix or volume, If I cut out a lot of the sub 100Hz I can easily drown out everyone else but the sound is too thin for what I need