Is the sound of the cab replicated when mic'ing?

[Beer of the Bass]

People who mic cabs live, how do you get the soundman to co-operate and actually run a mic on your cab? Are you carrying your own mics?
I had a gig last night, I had a chat with the soundman early in the evening and asked him if he would mic my cab. I play through a valve amp and use overdrive and fuzz quite a bit, so it's not really an outrageous request. Plus we're a guitar/bass/drums three piece, so not exactly a difficult gig for soundmen. He gave the impression of agreeing, saying he would run a mic and DI, but then did the opposite, with just a Behringer DI and proceeded to kill the bass sound by boosting the sub bass and having very little mid or highs. I didn't want to push the point, as he was in control of the "suck" knob that night! He was also using a trigger for the bass drum, with a completely inappropriate sound, so getting any sort of decent sound that night was a damage limitation exercise.
It doesn't seem unreasonable to use a mic along with a DI in certain cases, so why do many sound guys make you feel like a prima donna for asking?

[stingrayPete1977]

Its another thing to control though, most people have no regard for the sound guy or how the system works. They get to the muse-esque bit in the middle 8, hit the effects and its way too loud so the sound man has to turn it down, then they switch to another patch that is eq'd wrong for the room and its loud but has no bottom end (worst when its just mic'd obviously). Guitar players are always turning their amps up and down even though they are generally mic'd so the sound guy is already having to alter them every 5 minutes. If you have your own sound crew its all good but in most cases either a clean DI with your effects first so at least he can just watch/hear the level or an effects loop with a mix of both DI and a mic for colour, in most cases from what I can hear the clean feed sounds better than the durge often booming out of an 8x10

[Monckyman]

Well that particular "sound"man obviously didn`t know what the f*** he was doing.
There is a kind of arrogance that seeps into the minds of young engineers that leads them to believe that only they know what the gig needs, and this tends to give them the imagined right to play god and It`s only after a few years on the job that they realise their job is to provide others with solutions.
The appalling lack of knowledge about sound and electricity and gain structure in young musicians tends to reinforce this belief and so young engineers tend to ignore better educated musicians requests.
On the other hand, a lot of the time a bass mic is seen as a luxury, and another source of possible spill and noise pollution on a tight or unruly stage,and a lot of engineers don`t know how to mic a bass properly anyway.
All I can suggest for you is as I have with others.
Make a clear and concise stage plan, a good input list with all your names on,a very definite instruction regarding what mics you prefer and a clear request for the engineer to discuss your details with you personally.
I personally don`t agree with Simons view on bass mics, having used D112 or beta52 or RE20s for the past 20 years at all levels of gigs,but he has a point that if you are after valve or FX only, an SM57 will do the job well, and you can buy your own for £50 along with a clamp to fix it in the right place on your rig.
You must instruct the engineer and then follow it up with very strong objections if he/she ignores you.
MM

Edited November 5, 2011 by Monckyman

[stingrayPete1977]

[quote name='Monckyman' timestamp='1320485486' post='1427368']
young engineers tend to ignore better educated musicians requests.
[/quote]

The problem with this is how does he/she know you have a better education? because you have good gear? I have good gear and no clue at all! Has he got the time to vet all the patches on your pedal board along with all the other bands requests? Im not saying they shouldn't mic you up if you want one but in 20 years of playing if I told the rest of any band I have been in that Im emailing the venue to request what type of bass mic I prefer and that we should have a stage plan etc they would of booted me out years ago! Somewhere like the Bull and Gate in Kentish town with 4 bands on your lucky to find a spot to stand with 4 bass amps, 8 marshall stacks, 4 drum kits a keyboard and various other things never mind telling everyone else where to stand!

[Monckyman]

<shrug> I can`t answer that really.
Why would a band kick you out for wanting to be professionally minded about your music?
Would the same bands have kicked you out for putting new strings on, or (ffs) tuning??
I realise a lot of smaller gigs are shitpits with 4 or 5 bands on a small stage and one harassed engineer,who has a job to repatch between bands and re dial in monitors settings etc in 15 min change overs,so you don`t get your mic.
But there are other gigs where you do get the chance to settle your sound.
If you know what you want, tell the engineer.
If you have information that you think the engineer needs, write it down and give it to him.
Pretty obvious really.
That`s really all you can do.

[stingrayPete1977]

I think for most of us most gigs are like that

Like I said before if your lucky enough to have a sound crew or your at a pro venue fair enough but the type of guy in question is more likely to be doing the sound at the Dog and Whistle and will have a bemused look if you say you would prefer an SM 57 to a 58 for example.

[charic]

Honestly IME around here with a FEW exceptions most engineers aren't engineers at all. They run wires to the desk and move the knobs to the same spot they always run them. I've found the best way to deal with them is just be polite, buy them a beer and ask if you oversee the soundcheck and offer to help out throughout the night.

A happy engineer is always a better engineer.

Saying that, even though I have a degree in the subject and have probably done upwards of 200 gigs doing the sound for bands most engineers look down on me because I look even younger than I am.

[Beer of the Bass]

This particular gig had only two bands, and we were the only one with a bass player. I think it's just laziness on the part of this particular sound guy, combined with a weird passive/aggressive thing of pretending to agree whilst doing the opposite! We had emailed the venue in advance about our lineup and requirements. I actually run my amp pretty clean, but it's providing some compression, rolling off the high frequencies which are otherwise obnoxious with my effects and giving some extra presence around 2k compared to a straight DI. I could probably come up with some complicated signal chain to deliver something similar to the sound guy, but why bother?
I have wondered whether a speaker level DI is worth experimenting with - i.e running a DI box off the amp output (in parallel with the speaker) with a 40dB pad on. It would miss the speaker colouration, but my DI box has a 4kHz lowpass which can be switched in which might do some of that job. Any thoughts on this?

[Monckyman]

I honestly don`t think it worth your time and expense to keep worrying about this.
Just insist on a mic.
If you can`t get one you can`t get one.
At the very best the eq and level are decided by the "engineer" and whatever signal you give them will be subject to their tin ears and apathetic ways,so my advice is relax, enjoy your cab and let the gig take care of itself.

[charic]

You could run a Sansamp or something to the desk if you wanted a little bit more control over what they do to your sound.

[ironside1966]

When you hear your bass sound you are not just hearing the speaker you are hearing the cab in a room . you are right about the tweeter and the port but there is the room acoustics to consider, some frequencies are reinforced by the reflections off nearby surfaces and others are cancelled. Most bass drum microphones are far from flat and like everyone says the placement is very important.
A good sound man will hear the sound you are producing and know the best way within his means or time constrains to achieve it.
Why is it so important to get the exact sound that you hear? I don't mean turning Jean Jacques Burnel into James Jamerson but a sound that brings out what you are trying to achieve and fits well in the context of the mix.

When I started recording I discovered that when something sounds good on its own doesn't mean it will sound good in a mix.

Edited November 5, 2011 by ironside1966

[stingrayPete1977]

[quote name='Monckyman' timestamp='1320495983' post='1427536']
I honestly don`t think it worth your time and expense to keep worrying about this.
Just insist on a mic.
If you can`t get one you can`t get one.
At the very best the eq and level are decided by the "engineer" and whatever signal you give them will be subject to their tin ears and apathetic ways,so my advice is relax, enjoy your cab and let the gig take care of itself.
[/quote]

This is what I was trying to say before but not very well put, so this +1 you cant control everything all the time, if your songs are good they should keep the punters happy even if its slightly less/more valve driven than [i]your [/i]head would suggest.

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

[quote name='51m0n' timestamp='1320450583' post='1427195']

You havent seen how small his back yard was
[/quote]
Road trip. Go to the nearest open field, all the required gear can be battery powered, including amplifier.
[quote]Can't you just map the frequency response of a room? Not exactly simple but it's not rocket science either, just time consuming. Then it's a constant for all future tests? [/quote]In theory yes, but practically speaking, no. To measure in room at the required distances would be a sonic nightmare. There are methods to measure near field in room, but I don't place much faith in them myself.

[ironside1966]

You can't really correct a room acoustics with just a graphic there are phase and timing anomalies to consider and you would need a lot of bands

[Beer of the Bass]

[quote name='Monckyman' timestamp='1320495983' post='1427536']
I honestly don`t think it worth your time and expense to keep worrying about this.
Just insist on a mic.
If you can`t get one you can`t get one.
At the very best the eq and level are decided by the "engineer" and whatever signal you give them will be subject to their tin ears and apathetic ways,so my advice is relax, enjoy your cab and let the gig take care of itself.
[/quote]

Fair enough. The audience were enjoying the gig well enough, and that engineer would probably have screwed up any sound source equally badly! In a previous band, I had to stop using my double bass for a regular gig in that venue as the same sound guy couldn't figure out how to control the feedback when he turned the subs up.
I don't think a straight DI is inherently bad sounding, it's just a shame that everyone ends up sounding the same, regardless of the sound they've found to work in their particular band.

[51m0n]

[quote name='Monckyman' timestamp='1320485486' post='1427368']
I personally don`t agree with Simons view on bass mics, having used D112 or beta52 or RE20s for the past 20 years at all levels of gigs,but he has a point that if you are after valve or FX only, an SM57 will do the job well, and you can buy your own for £50 along with a clamp to fix it in the right place on your rig.
You must instruct the engineer and then follow it up with very strong objections if he/she ignores you.
MM
[/quote]

Well the ElectroVoice RE20 is a mic designed for broadcast voice applications, its certainly not first and foremost a bass mic. Although it is superb in that application. I prefer the PR40 even to an RE20 though. Its virtually flat from 50Hz to 2Khz (above which its a tad wobblier, but nothing like a D112)

D112s and beta52 have heavily eq'ed (basically mid scooped with a peak around 4KHz) frequency plots. They are that way because modern kick drum sounds require exactly that kind of eq, not because bass does (in some cases it can work, mix dependant though).

The other point is have a look at the kick drum, if it has the same kind of mic (generically a designed for that purpose mic rather than the same specific brand) the sound guy doesnt understand frequency mixing and is going to struggle to get good seperation between kick and bass compared to a sound guy who makes sure he uses different mics on the two instruments competing for the same sonic territory.

This is virtually sound engineering key stage 1 stuff, get this wrong and you are struggling from then on in. If you have had reasonable results with those mics in front of your cab then I'm pleased for you, if you see lots of people do it its because they dont spend the time thinking about it hard enough (seriously). I guarantee you its easier to mix my way (ha ha, its not mine personally, I make no claim to it at all, I've merely listened to some great engineers imparting what they have learnt, and tried a lot of different scenarios and used my ears), I know I've been down every possible path for getting bass and kick (and tuba and db) to sit together in a mix that I can think of.

This particular one doesnt work so well in the context of the mix, there is one caveat to that of course, and that is the case where the mix choice is to use the 57 (or similar) on the kick (going for an old school little punchy funk kick drum sound this can work very well indeed) where the bass is very dubby and you low pass it below the presence peak in the mic....

Edited November 5, 2011 by 51m0n

[Monckyman]

Cheers for the Basic lesson stuff there Si, I`ll remember that next time I`m at a major festival and I`m adjusting the beta 52 everybody has asked for.
Obviously because we are all lazy and deaf.
As I said, for the last 20 years I`ve been working at a reasonable level (major festivals) and those mics are the ones everyone uses,so I suppose all the worlds working engineers must be wrong.
I`ll let them know.
Ta.

[51m0n]

Cool, maybe we'll all be able to pick out more than a rumble from the bass in the FOH in future then

If everyone out there is asking for it on the festival scene it must be right, obviously, no need to question that at all. Funny though a lot of major engineers would use an RE20 in the studio, any number would reach for a Neumann (47, 67 whatever) a little way off the cab, I've seen plenty of use for Senn MD421s in this application, any number of mics fit the bill where you have the time to audition mics to get the best sound for the rig/song/mix. Its a kick drum mic a lot less often in that application than on a festival, nothing to do with the ubiquitous nature of kick drum mics, their well deserved rep for indestructibility, and all about the sonic perfection they guarantee.... ...oh hold on let me think about that again.

They will perform the function of picking up the cab, they will do a load of eqing to the signal that may or may not be right for it. Whether you and everyone you work with have only used them for the last 20 years or not, that doesnt change the fact that they are not really the best tool for picking up the actual sound of the bass from that cab. You may or may not like what they do and find it can be made to work in the mix, personally I prefer to eq at the desk, not in the mic, live, just because you dont have time to swap the mics out when the bassist surprises you with a change of instrument for whatever reason and his signal turns to mud..

I confess, I havent done a huge live outdoor gig for years, I got really bored of being passed the DAT tapes (like a said years) by the management and being told to drop the mics and turn up the tape during the songs. I really lost interest in live all day events when that started happening....

[ironside1966]

I try to stay clear of recommending microphones or saying one method is good or but the other is bad. Ask 100 engineers you will get 120 different answers.
I have used bass drum mics lots of time and still got a good sound but they are not my first choice. It’s all down to ears and expreance.
If I had a pound for every time a musician said to me, my mate is a great sound engineer and says you should do it this way, then after further questioning you find out his mate is a postman or works in IT

[stingrayPete1977]

I dont think there could of been a better way of showing why I would[u] never [/u]email a venue in advance to tell them which mic they should use in [u]their[/u] venue than having three engineers disagreeing over it right here

I will stick to being on time, polite, help out as much as possible moving our gear out the way asap instead of going for a fag while the next band want to sound check ect and let them do their job whilst I stick to mine

[stingrayPete1977]

I dont smoke anyway

[Monckyman]

Simon, why are you being so arrogant and condescending?
I haven`t attacked you,merely said I and many other professional engineers don`t find any problem using certain mics in live situations.
This isn`t opinion, this is fact.
Why then would you even suggest that anyone who mics a bass cab with one of those mics didn`t know what they were doing?
Why would you say this is "[i]virtually sound engineering key stage 1 stuff, get this wrong and you are struggling from then on in. If you have had reasonable results with those mics in front of your cab then I'm pleased for you, if you see lots of people do it its because they dont spend the time thinking about it hard enough[/i]" when you are talking about engineers at the top of their game, and working in front of tens of thousands of people daily?
How astoundingly arrogant of you to insist that EVERYBODY else is wrong, and only you are right.

Consider yourself off my xmas list.

Edited November 6, 2011 by Monckyman

[LawrenceH]

[quote name='Monckyman' timestamp='1320535117' post='1428225']
so I suppose all the worlds working engineers must be wrong.
I`ll let them know.
Ta.
[/quote]

Yes. They are...
At least at festivals I've been to. Inappropriate 'rock' style scooped kick and bass mic-ing, with overly dominant kick drum and poorly defined bass seems to be the 'festival sound', regardless of genre. Oh look, it's an acoustic guitar, a violin and some ethereal, gentle female vox. Right, better whack up the bass drum, drown all that boring rubbish out

[51m0n]

[quote name='Monckyman' timestamp='1320578021' post='1428421']
Simon, why are you being so arrogant and condescending?
I haven`t attacked you,merely said I and many other professional engineers don`t find any problem using certain mics in live situations.
This isn`t opinion, this is fact.
Why then would you even suggest that anyone who mics a bass cab with one of those mics didn`t know what they were doing?
Why would you say this is "[i]virtually sound engineering key stage 1 stuff, get this wrong and you are struggling from then on in. If you have had reasonable results with those mics in front of your cab then I'm pleased for you, if you see lots of people do it its because they dont spend the time thinking about it hard enough[/i]" when you are talking about engineers at the top of their game, and working in front of tens of thousands of people daily?
How astoundingly arrogant of you to insist that EVERYBODY else is wrong, and only you are right.

Consider yourself off my xmas list.
[/quote]

Sorry mate, bit strong, fair point well made. Happy Christmas!

Put it another way, I have lost count of the number of large PAs that sounded like rank plop - best sound I heard in the last ten years was Travis at the Brighton Center, that was unreal, Zappa plays Zappa was ok there, others have been awful as a rule. Now I am trying to compare PA's with major bands in the same venue since that is what counts if you like, as a reasonable comparison.

Not trying to be arrogant or condescending, I'm trying to explain my reasoning. I know loads and loads of engineers use kick drum mics live for bass and kick. I happen to think it doesnt help a mix to be using mics that closely follows the same frequency response on the kick and the bass, live or in the studio. I can say why that is. I understand a lot of people do it, I'll just reiterate, I have heard a lot of big time PAs and there is no definition on the bass, and no seperation between bass and kick. It is a real grouch of mine I admit!

It is nevertheless pretty much the first rule (if there are any) of mixing to give yourself the best chance from the source onwards to get that seperation right. I completely agree it can work, if the music calls for it, but a huge amount of music doesnt and the thing is how often do you guys on a festival actually spend an hour or two going through bass amp mic options? Not so much I'm sure. There are a bundle of other factors weighing in against that kind of experimentation, far easier to take the easy option of slapping one of the same old mics on there and go with that. I completely understand why its done, I am saying it is still not necessarily the best solution. In a situation where there is the time to do that experimentation (which I have done several times) the fact is it is often surprising to find that a different approach to the bass and kick can work better in the overall mix. Its all I'm trying to say.

If you have tried what I'm saying and found that I am wrong in the circumstances you have tried it in thats cool, and I would honestly love to know where and when, genres of music and so on. I really would.But if you are saying everyone does that so its fine then all I'm asking is when did they last try something else?

I apologise again, sincerely, if I over egged the pudding, I wasnt trying to, and I think the tone of my response didnt come over as I intended it. My fault.

[ironside1966]

Technical jousting, the pastime of many amateur and semi pro engineers.