ironside1966 Posted November 6, 2011 Share Posted November 6, 2011 I hate the bass drum wars myself, far too many engineers have one sound, a loud bass drum with the rest of the band fighting there way through. My priorities are to get a sound and volume that is suitable for the venue and act Next I want the clarity to hear the notes of every instrument and every vocal of the performers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monckyman Posted November 6, 2011 Share Posted November 6, 2011 I`m not semi-pro. I make my living as a live sound engineer. Nor am I jousting. I`m not attempting to contradict anyone, nor say they are ignorant or amateur. Nor am I attempting to lecture others on basic microphone theory. I said which mics I prefer for the job. If others choose to differ then that`s up to them. Muddy sound at festivals being attributed to the wrong mic choice on bass cabs by ill-informed/lazy/deaf sound technicians is an interesting theory. I just can`t understand why it still goes on what with all this excellent advice on the tintanet.. Nice to know the profession is respected. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ironside1966 Posted November 6, 2011 Share Posted November 6, 2011 (edited) I am not having a go mate; any one who makes a living from sound must be doing something right. My remark was more a reaction to 51m0n “ This is virtually sound engineering key stage 1 stuff, get this wrong and you are struggling from then on in. If you have had reasonable results with those mics in front of your cab then I'm pleased for you, if you see lots of people do it its because they don’t spend the time thinking about it hard enough (seriously). I guarantee you its easier to mix my way (ha, its not mine personally, I make no claim to it at all, I've merely listened to some great engineers imparting what they have learnt, and tried a lot of different scenarios and used my ears), I know I've been down every possible path for getting bass and kick (and tuba and db) to sit together in a mix that I can think of.” Working live and studio is two different beasts, so when people make comments like this I have to ask what live actual expreance is this based on. Working live is often making the best of the equipment available at the time. Tthere are a thousand ways to do something and a good sound live sound is more down to the skill of the engineer, venues acoustics, good performance and quality of sound source quality of PA then microphone choice. 51m0n, I am not having a pop at you ether, it is just in a few post you have came across sounding like you know best and your method is the only way or the best way. the People who I have met and respect who engineer for a living tend to be more laid back and accept and use different methods depending on the circumstances. Edited November 6, 2011 by ironside1966 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LawrenceH Posted November 6, 2011 Share Posted November 6, 2011 [quote name='Monckyman' timestamp='1320594607' post='1428710'] Muddy sound at festivals being attributed to the wrong mic choice on bass cabs by ill-informed/lazy/deaf sound technicians is an interesting theory. I just can`t understand why it still goes on what with all this excellent advice on the tintanet.. Nice to know the profession is respected. [/quote] I certainly didn't say the overall sound was muddy - just that I happen not to like the bass end, in particular the interaction with kick and bass, and often find that the bass drum doesn't sit in the mix well with folk-y/jazzy bands, being far too dominant. It's just an opinion, but then if I'm there are as a punter my opinion is just as valid as anyone else's including that of the engineer as to whether the sound is any good. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ironside1966 Posted November 6, 2011 Share Posted November 6, 2011 There is a simple answer to this a lot of engineers don't know how to mix a jazz or folk band so they treat it has pop or rock. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monckyman Posted November 6, 2011 Share Posted November 6, 2011 (edited) [quote name='LawrenceH' timestamp='1320608410' post='1428959'] I certainly didn't say the overall sound was muddy - just that I happen not to like the bass end, in particular the interaction with kick and bass, and often find that the bass drum doesn't sit in the mix well with folk-y/jazzy bands, being far too dominant. It's just an opinion, but then if I'm there are as a punter my opinion is just as valid as anyone else's including that of the engineer as to whether the sound is any good. [/quote] Yes, you are right. Edited November 6, 2011 by Monckyman Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monckyman Posted November 6, 2011 Share Posted November 6, 2011 [quote name='ironside1966' timestamp='1320610509' post='1429000'] There is a simple answer to this a lot of engineers don't know how to mix a jazz or folk band so they treat it has pop or rock. [/quote] Quite possibly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monckyman Posted November 6, 2011 Share Posted November 6, 2011 <shrug> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charic Posted November 6, 2011 Share Posted November 6, 2011 I think that live sound outdoors is incredibly difficult no matter the sound system or source tbf. So many variables that can affect It's insane. Is much prefer to do live sound indoors anyday. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
51m0n Posted November 6, 2011 Share Posted November 6, 2011 [quote name='ironside1966' timestamp='1320599567' post='1428813'] I am not having a go mate; any one who makes a living from sound must be doing something right. My remark was more a reaction to 51m0n “ This is virtually sound engineering key stage 1 stuff, get this wrong and you are struggling from then on in. If you have had reasonable results with those mics in front of your cab then I'm pleased for you, if you see lots of people do it its because they don’t spend the time thinking about it hard enough (seriously). I guarantee you its easier to mix my way (ha, its not mine personally, I make no claim to it at all, I've merely listened to some great engineers imparting what they have learnt, and tried a lot of different scenarios and used my ears), I know I've been down every possible path for getting bass and kick (and tuba and db) to sit together in a mix that I can think of.” Working live and studio is two different beasts, so when people make comments like this I have to ask what live actual expreance is this based on. Working live is often making the best of the equipment available at the time. Tthere are a thousand ways to do something and a good sound live sound is more down to the skill of the engineer, venues acoustics, good performance and quality of sound source quality of PA then microphone choice. 51m0n, I am not having a pop at you ether, it is just in a few post you have came across sounding like you know best and your method is the only way or the best way. the People who I have met and respect who engineer for a living tend to be more laid back and accept and use different methods depending on the circumstances. [/quote] I've done a fair amount of live, and more in the studio. Its not my dayjob, although I would have loved it to have been at one time in my life, but I have been shown some really informative stuff by some guys who know their beans as well as anyone in the business, and whose experience goes right back, to when it really was a case of get the mic position wrong and you've blown the recording or the transmission (due to massive lack of outboard for one thing). I consider myself very lucky to have even met a couple of them, and have the utmost respect for their experience and knowledge. You're absolutely right live is more often than not a case of there's the kit there's the deadline, get in, get it done, get out alive. I've experienced that end of it. It is possible to get perfectly good results with almost any mic, if you have the time, the outboard (esp eq) and so on. These days its probably easier than ever. Anyone making a living out of live sound has my complete respect (no honestly its a hellish job at times) and I totally understand the reasoning behind choices like this. I'm sorry I've put my point across too strongly in this thread. The reaction to that will be that no one will even try it. There are no rules, do what you can do to get the job done, I'm only trying to share what I've been shown, experimented with and come to trust as not bs. Take it or leave it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LawrenceH Posted November 6, 2011 Share Posted November 6, 2011 I have to wonder with bass guitar, where a 2-pickup set up gives a natural mid-scoop, a lot of onboard active pre-amps AND amplifier pre-amps are voiced with a mid-scoop and then run into a cab with a natural scoop (eg typical mid-bass hump and another sensitivity peak coming up to the cone break-up freqs). How much more mid-scooping does it actually need? Also, all that is obviously much less of an issue live with a high-end desk with sweet-sounding full-parametric EQ across 4 or 5 bands. You can probably make it sound like anything you want. It's a bit more annoying at my lowly playing level where FoH is at most semi-para on 1 or 2 mid-bands (mmm old Behringer/Mackie EQ...not so pleasant when you whack it up!). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charic Posted November 6, 2011 Share Posted November 6, 2011 Don't knock mackie! Great kit!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ironside1966 Posted November 7, 2011 Share Posted November 7, 2011 51m0n you have written many great and informative posts and I hope you continue to do. My reason for the come back is, unfortunately some musicians and bands think that most sound engineers are close to use less. So when one engineers starts to criticize another’s method it just reinforces that belief. I think you have to be carful of exact statements, because some musicians feel cheated if it’s not done that way and it’s there job to tell the engineer how it should be done. I believe we should educate people that the best way to get a good sound is let the engineer do their job, not fall out amongst ourselves Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ironside1966 Posted November 7, 2011 Share Posted November 7, 2011 [quote name='LawrenceH' timestamp='1320621435' post='1429183'] I have to wonder with bass guitar, where a 2-pickup set up gives a natural mid-scoop, a lot of onboard active pre-amps AND amplifier pre-amps are voiced with a mid-scoop and then run into a cab with a natural scoop (eg typical mid-bass hump and another sensitivity peak coming up to the cone break-up freqs). How much more mid-scooping does it actually need? Also, all that is obviously much less of an issue live with a high-end desk with sweet-sounding full-parametric EQ across 4 or 5 bands. You can probably make it sound like anything you want. It's a bit more annoying at my lowly playing level where FoH is at most semi-para on 1 or 2 mid-bands (mmm old Behringer/Mackie EQ...not so pleasant when you whack it up!). [/quote] Cut the frequencies you don’t want rather then boost the one you do. Cut the frequencies you don’t want rather then boost the one you do. Our ears are far less responsive to frequencies cuts has they are to boosts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charic Posted November 7, 2011 Share Posted November 7, 2011 (edited) [quote name='ironside1966' timestamp='1320626840' post='1429225']51m0n you have written many great and informative posts and I hope you continue to do. My reason for the come back is, unfortunately some musicians and bands think that most sound engineers are close to use less. So when one engineers starts to criticize another’s method it just reinforces that belief. I think you have to be carful of exact statements, because some musicians feel cheated if it’s not done that way and it’s there job to tell the engineer how it should be done. I believe we should educate people that the best way to get a good sound is let the engineer do their job, not fall out amongst ourselves[/quote] This is dependent on the sound engineer being a sound engineer though. Unfortunately, on the amateur music scene atleast a large proportion of "engineers" don't have a sodding clue. A good engineer will: -listen to the bands music and comments, if possible listen to a track or two of their cd beforehand too -be polite/patient with a band and explain why certain changes to their sound won't work that night -(in my experience at least) will not sit fiddling with controls all night, past the first song they should be pretty much done -be quick/efficient/organised and generally in control A bad engineer will: -not do most of the above -just do the exact same as they do every night -will not LISTEN All in my experience obviously Edited November 7, 2011 by charic Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beer of the Bass Posted November 7, 2011 Share Posted November 7, 2011 [quote name='charic' timestamp='1320653703' post='1429288'] This is dependent on the sound engineer being a sound engineer though. Unfortunately, on the amateur music scene atleast a large proportion of "engineers" don't have a sodding clue. A good engineer will: -listen to the bands music and comments, if possible listen to a track or two of their cd beforehand too -be polite/patient with a band and explain why certain changes to their sound won't work that night -(in my experience at least) will not sit fiddling with controls all night, past the first song they should be pretty much done -be quick/efficient/organised and generally in control [/quote] It's a shame that nobody is in the habit of posting to say "I played at X venue last night, the engineer was great to work with and we were really pleased with the sound". It does happen, and ought to be acknowledged. Maybe there should be a thread somewhere for this. I suspect all of the sound guys on this thread are among the good ones, as they're showing every sign of caring about what they do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LawrenceH Posted November 7, 2011 Share Posted November 7, 2011 [quote name='ironside1966' timestamp='1320627319' post='1429227'] Cut the frequencies you don’t want rather then boost the one you do. Cut the frequencies you don’t want rather then boost the one you do. Our ears are far less responsive to frequencies cuts has they are to boosts. [/quote] Aye, this was kind of what I was getting at if you consider every single step in a bass guitar signal chain potentially introducing a mid cut! [quote name='charic' timestamp='1320622358' post='1429189'] Don't knock mackie! Great kit!! [/quote] Tbf to Mackie I haven't used their newer stuff and I know they made a big thing about the redesigned EQ a few years ago...but the older stuff did not sound pretty, we battled against a CFX desk for years. Upgrading to an A&H GL series desk was a revelation and that's not exactly high end in the grand scheme of things. The Mackie pre-amps were nice and quiet though which I think is why they were popular particularly with home recording. Live, I preferred almost anything else. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charic Posted November 7, 2011 Share Posted November 7, 2011 I still drool over the Onyx 1640 [url="http://www.dv247.com/assets/products/67613_l.jpg"]http://www.dv247.com/assets/products/67613_l.jpg[/url] Just got a fantastic feel to it, I do love it when kit FEELS like quality Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charic Posted November 7, 2011 Share Posted November 7, 2011 [quote name='Beer of the Bass' timestamp='1320659384' post='1429394'] It's a shame that nobody is in the habit of posting to say "I played at X venue last night, the engineer was great to work with and we were really pleased with the sound". It does happen, and ought to be acknowledged. Maybe there should be a thread somewhere for this. I suspect all of the sound guys on this thread are among the good ones, as they're showing every sign of caring about what they do. [/quote] Agreed! Ah the difference between a sound engineer and a knob twiddler Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monckyman Posted November 7, 2011 Share Posted November 7, 2011 The use of inexperienced (clueless) sound engineers can be blamed squarely on the venue manager/owner. They simply don`t want to pay a decent wage to better qualified staff because they can`t appreciate the difference enough to warrant the outlay. So as long as bands aren`t physically attacking the engineer, they`ll stick with him/her. Especially if they are cheap as chips. This isn`t restricted to small clubs. I`ve got a shedload of pictures of me and other engineers fixing f***ed P.As in venues across Europe who won`t spend on maintenance,spares and repair bills. So they let touring crew spot the broken bits,and then provide the bits if we fit them.Which we do because we have a show in four hours and half the p.a is f***ed... I have replaced drivers, horns, all sorts of wiring looms, pointed out and marked broken channels pots sockets on desks that appear to have never been cleaned in their lifetimes,rewired monitor desks where the local staff appear to not understand the concept of PFL buttons and listen wedge outputs, and all at venues who only exist to make money from live touring bands. Perhaps another thing to bear in mind when you get to the venue is although the staff may have been screaming for what they consider to be essential equipment, the management regards this area as a low priority and will do so until the shows appear to be at risk of not happening, and their income with it. Engineers tend to get a little jaded by this, while doing 4/5 bands a night, most of whom are ignorant of basic stage etiquette,don`t thank them for their efforts and are quick to blame them for any apparent sound blemish. So... On the other hand. I did the Liquid Rooms in Edinborough a couple of weeks back on a short tour around the UK and they have spent enormous amounts of cash on the sound equipment including a nice D&B flown rig, inc stage monitors,a Midas digital Pro8 for foh and a Pro6 for monitoring and it all worked and was staffed by competent and enthusiastic staff. So,it isn`t all bad. I think that as musicians (myself included) we simply have to trust our sound to people we don`t know,and hope the club has found someone competent and keen. Wanting a stranger to accommodate your desire for a blend of d.i and mic to capture the essence of your expensive pre-amp and boutique cab is a luxury not likely to be found in the toilet venues of UK The only way around this is to pay your own engineer to do what you tell them to do. MM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charic Posted November 7, 2011 Share Posted November 7, 2011 [quote name='Monckyman' timestamp='1320664160' post='1429484'] The only way around this is to pay your own engineer to do what you tell them to do. [/quote] I'm guessing this type of engineer doesn't work for 2 pints of cheapest and a packet of pork scratchings? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
51m0n Posted November 7, 2011 Share Posted November 7, 2011 (edited) [quote name='Monckyman' timestamp='1320664160' post='1429484'] The use of inexperienced (clueless) sound engineers can be blamed squarely on the venue manager/owner. .....//.... The only way around this is to pay your own engineer to do what you tell them to do. MM [/quote] Couldn't agree more with all of that! The only other option is learn how it all works, get a decent PA and do your own sound - seriously not trivial though.... Edited November 7, 2011 by 51m0n Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monckyman Posted November 7, 2011 Share Posted November 7, 2011 Probably not. Mebbe Panda scratchings. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monckyman Posted November 7, 2011 Share Posted November 7, 2011 Si, yes you could get your own P.A for pubs clubs functions etc, but you still can`t operate it in any meaningful way if you are onstage yourself during the show. And it still doesn`t address the low quality of staff in toilet/touring venues where you have to use their p.a anyway. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
51m0n Posted November 7, 2011 Share Posted November 7, 2011 True, beyond set and forget mode you are out for the count. Not that that isnt possible, its just really not using the system to its fullest potential (or even close). Thats why engineers do 'fiddle' all the way through the set. Good ones are helping all the time by tweaking levels slightly to help the mix for each differnet track. With modern systems it goes way beyond a little tweak here and there in some cases too. Not to mention the monitor sound and the effort that goes into keeping that optimal for the musicians. Whether a set and forget mentality is better than the offerings of the venue's own engineers (assuming they have any) I couldnt possibly say Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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