You Know What I Don't Get About Scales...

[cytania]

I used to think there was just major and minor. I got that, one sounds happy the other sad. Then I was told scales could be diminished or dominant. Then there are modes which are the particular flavours of major and minor.
But where does pentatonic and chromatic fit? And chromatic, that's all the notes right?, almost a denial of the scale since nothing is selected or omitted.

Alot of the modes seem so exotic that naming examples means experimental jazz and classical exercises, doesn't help get familiar with them.

Can anyone explain in plain language? How do they teach this stuff to children?

[JakeBrownBass]

[quote name='cytania' timestamp='1318966804' post='1408435']
I used to think there was just major and minor. I got that, one sounds happy the other sad. Then I was told scales could be diminished or dominant. Then there are modes which are the particular flavours of major and minor.
But where does pentatonic and chromatic fit? And chromatic, that's all the notes right?, almost a denial of the scale since nothing is selected or omitted.

Alot of the modes seem so exotic that naming examples means experimental jazz and classical exercises, doesn't help get familiar with them.

Can anyone explain in plain language? How do they teach this stuff to children?
[/quote]

The pentatonic scale can be either Major or Minor.
For example,

Major = R - M2 - M3 - P5 - M6 - 8ve
Minor = R - m3 - P4 - P5 - M7 - 8ve


[size="2"][color="#000000"]Depending on how your learning your modes, they're just major or minor scales but starting on a different degree of that scale.[/color][/size]
[font=courier new,courier,monospace]Ionian R M2 M3 P4 P5 6M 7M [/font]
[font=courier new,courier,monospace]Dorian R M2 b3 P4 P5 6M b7 [/font]
[font=courier new,courier,monospace]Phrygian R b2 b3 P4 P5 b6 b7 [/font]
[font=courier new,courier,monospace]Lydian R M2 M3 b5 P5 M6 M7 [/font]
[font=courier new,courier,monospace]Mixolydian R M2 M3 P4 P5 M6 b7 [/font]
[font=courier new,courier,monospace]Aeolian R M2 b3 P4 P5 b6 b7 *This is your relative minor. [/font]
[font=courier new,courier,monospace]Locrian R b2 b3 P4 b5 b6 b7 [/font]

[font=courier new,courier,monospace]Where M is major - P is perfect - b is flat.[/font]

[font=courier new,courier,monospace]If you compare them to the key of C, it literally goes in order,[/font]

[font=courier new,courier,monospace]CDEFGABC[/font]
[font=courier new,courier,monospace]DEFGABCD[/font]
[font=courier new,courier,monospace]EFGABCDE[/font]
[font=courier new,courier,monospace]FGABCDEF[/font]
[font=courier new,courier,monospace]GABCDEFG
ABCDEFGA* This is your relative minor scale.[/font]
[font=courier new,courier,monospace]BCDEFGAB[/font]
[font=courier new,courier,monospace] [/font]

[font=courier new,courier,monospace]Modes aren't half as complicated as people think. [/font]

[font=courier new,courier,monospace]It can start getting complicated when you start bringing in tritone substitutions of dominant chords in jazz standards, but there are ways around this using the diminished scale. [/font]

[font="'courier new"]My personal opinion is that you can learn as little or as much as you want, too much information can't hold you back whereas too little can.[/font]

[cytania]

Thanks JR, what's this Perfect business? I understand flat and I assume major means as in the normal major scale I can play.

Are there any other varieties of scale lurking other than natural, pentatonic or chromatic? Where does chromatic get used other than as a flourish?

[Doddy]

The fourth and the fifth notes of the scale are referred to as being 'perfect' when they are not altered.

There are plenty of other scales besides Pentatonic,Chromatic and 'Natural' (I'm assuming you mean
'Diatonic')........Major,Minor,Harmonic Minor,Melodic Minor,Whole Tone,Diminished,Altered....just a few
I can think of off the top of my head.
Modally,there are another set based of the notes of the minor scale.

[JakeBrownBass]

[quote name='cytania' timestamp='1318968604' post='1408474']
Thanks JR, what's this Perfect business? I understand flat and I assume major means as in the normal major scale I can play.

Are there any other varieties of scale lurking other than natural, pentatonic or chromatic? Where does chromatic get used other than as a flourish?
[/quote]
I'm going to let Doddy take this i think as his off hand knowledge is going to be greater than mine.

A perfect 5th or 4th essential means its not diminished or augmented.

[cytania]

Oh, now my head's really spinning...

When I looked into scales I thought it would be like ear training. There'd be a dozen or so scales I could play, get used to the sound of and then I'd be hearing them in music I want to play (rock, soul, ska covers). At present I think I could gamble on 'major or minor' without losing too much money

I think what's confusing me is that in a lot of cases many of these scales are for exotic stuff, I guess most music is standard major scales. Certainly when I play the major scale at various points on the neck all sorts of melodies come to mind (or is it that they come to my fingers?), usually old hymns, children's songs and national anthems. But I would like to get better at spotting when something unusual is being done and have an idea of just what.

Anyone know of a resource where popular songs are broken down and labelled scale-wise?

[Bilbo]

on't deny yourself the pleasure of finding this stuff for yourself. If you know major and minor scales and their modes you are probably 90% of the way there for most popular music but the quality is in the 10% and that is where you find the augmented, diminished, chromatic, altered etc that Doddy referred to. It is worth mentioning that the altered dominant is the 7th mode of the melodic minor scale. Most alteted chords in charts (E7b9, E7#9 etc) are all played using the the altered dominant scale. Its not as complicated as it sounds although learning the sounds of each scale is that much harder because they occur less often and often fleetingly.

Kids learn this stuff one at a time. Adults always think that they can learn the whole thing in one sitting! TAke your time and learn incrementally.

[seashell]

[quote name='cytania' timestamp='1319007640' post='1408722']
Oh, now my head's really spinning...

When I looked into scales I thought it would be like ear training. There'd be a dozen or so scales I could play, get used to the sound of and then I'd be hearing them in music I want to play (rock, soul, ska covers). At present I think I could gamble on 'major or minor' without losing too much money

I think what's confusing me is that in a lot of cases many of these scales are for exotic stuff, I guess most music is standard major scales. Certainly when I play the major scale at various points on the neck all sorts of melodies come to mind (or is it that they come to my fingers?), usually old hymns, children's songs and national anthems. But I would like to get better at spotting when something unusual is being done and have an idea of just what.

Anyone know of a resource where popular songs are broken down and labelled scale-wise?
[/quote]

I can really relate to this! I can play loads of different scales, including the modal scales, but applying that to tunes you hear and want to play is really baffing.
It would be so great if there was some sort of resource like cytania says.

[Faithless]

Scales are the outcome from chord-tones and tensions, so you might want to break it down, and learn chords first.

The thing that always struck me about learning scales, is their tuition method - too often, people dont really understand why Ionian scale doesnt really work on Maj7 chord, and when they get some scales book, it tells them to use "Lydian" (which has #4, which is tension #11) over it, without even saying why, or just stating as if it's just better (for some mystical reason..) - and if you'd break it down, it would make perfect sense, because it's just chord-tones and tensions struck together - that's why I'm always going for chords first.

easy
Laimis

[BottomE]

Sod all that. I want to learn about the wrong notes. The interesting ones that don't fit "theoretically" but sound jazzy and cool.

[Bilbo]

[quote name='BottomE' timestamp='1319103737' post='1409844']Sod all that. I want to learn about the wrong notes. The interesting ones that don't fit "theoretically" but sound jazzy and cool.[/quote]

Trust me. Just because they sound jazzy and cool to you doesn't mean that they don't fit a theory, just that you don't know that theory. I did a session once and the producer (who worked for the BBC) said he had ths jazzy chord sequence he wanted to use but had not yet found a use for it. The sequence went Emaj7, F#m7, G#m7, Amaj7.....He said it reminded him of Level 42.

Nuff said...

[BottomE]

[quote name='Bilbo' timestamp='1319112116' post='1410012']
Trust me. Just because they sound jazzy and cool to you doesn't mean that they don't fit a theory, just that you don't know that theory. I did a session once and the producer (who worked for the BBC) said he had ths jazzy chord sequence he wanted to use but had not yet found a use for it. The sequence went Emaj7, F#m7, G#m7, Amaj7.....He said it reminded him of Level 42.

Nuff said...
[/quote]
But thats exactly it. Where is this theory? Chord tones - great but what notes can you put just before the chord tones or just after to spice up the phrase. I can't find much about this kind of stuff yet lots of people do it. Is it something that can't be articulated?

[Bilbo]

That's all about leading notes and grace notes, BE. They work becuase they are adjacent to the chord tones and are used on weak beats of the bar as a lead into a diatonic phrase on a strong beat. Holding any lead in note will create tension that is released when it is resolved. A lead in note will work better on a chord tones than a non-chord tone and on a weak beat rather than a strong one although turning that around has long ago become acceptable in the right context. You learn to recognise the difference quite quickly and make your musical decisions accordingly.

[BottomE]

[quote name='Bilbo' timestamp='1319113727' post='1410046']
That's all about leading notes and grace notes, BE. They work becuase they are adjacent to the chord tones and are used on weak beats of the bar as a lead into a diatonic phrase on a strong beat. Holding any lead in note will create tension that is released when it is resolved. A lead in note will work better on a chord tones than a non-chord tone and on a weak beat rather than a strong one although turning that around has long ago become acceptable in the right context. You learn to recognise the difference quite quickly and make your musical decisions accordingly.
[/quote]
Thanks. I have been looking for some kind of tutorial on this as its where i think i am at. Damned if i can find one. Any recommendations/links would be gratefully received.

[Doddy]

A good simple exercise is to play the changes of a standard like Autumn Leaves using just chord tones. When you are comfortable,try playing the same thing but play a semitone below each chord tone before each note...eg. If the arpeggio is
C,E,G,B, play bC,d#E,f#G,aB. So now you are already using non chord tones and chromatics.

[Faithless]

Taking Doddy's drill as a base, what you want to do after shedding that drill is write out those Autumn Leaves changes, and write dowmn some lines using only chord tones and those chromatics. Learn them out of time, and then put on a record of AL, so that you'll hear how it sounds against the changes. You'll be surprised how good can it be.

easy
Laimis

[BottomE]

Many thanks. I'll try both those suggestions.

[topo morto]

[quote name='cytania' timestamp='1318966804' post='1408435'] How do they teach this stuff to children?
[/quote]

They told me, "There's just major and minor. One sounds happy the other sad."

B*stards.

[BottomE]

[quote name='Faithless' timestamp='1319129022' post='1410388']
Taking Doddy's drill as a base, what you want to do after shedding that drill is write out those Autumn Leaves changes, and write dowmn some lines using only chord tones and those chromatics. Learn them out of time, and then put on a record of AL, so that you'll hear how it sounds against the changes. You'll be surprised how good can it be.

easy
Laimis
[/quote]
Lamis

what a very cool exercise. My brain hurts though. Thanks for that.

B

[Faithless]

Take it easy, man, no one makes it over one night - just shed it each day lil' by little.

As for the exercise, just make sure that those chromatics don't last more than an eight note (if you're playing in swing) and they aint followed by a rest. In other words, you want to outline chord tones, not chromatic bits.

[Bilbo]

Faithless is right. Chromatics tend to work because you are on the way somewhere and lingering too long on one note that is not a chord/scale tone will mosty sound wrong. Beautifully wrong if that is what you want but mostly just wrong.

[Guest bassman7755]

[quote name='BottomE' timestamp='1319103737' post='1409844']
Sod all that. I want to learn about the wrong notes. The interesting ones that don't fit "theoretically" but sound jazzy and cool.
[/quote]

Theoretically there are no "wrong" notes - only varying degrees of tension. People who are looking to thoery to tell them definitievly what to play and what not to play , are looking in the wrong place.

Edited October 25, 2011 by bassman7755

[Bilbo]

And there's the rub. When you have learned all of the theory, you can ignore it and just play. But to think you can just ignore it and play without learning it is the difference between intelligent performance and just plain luck. Mick Karn was a greaet exampl of someone whose knowledge was limited but his playing unique. Trouble is, once he had stopped discovering innovative ideas, he had nowehere to go.

[Guest bassman7755]

[quote name='BottomE' timestamp='1319113038' post='1410031']
But thats exactly it. Where is this theory? Chord tones - great but what notes can you put just before the chord tones or just after to spice up the phrase. I can't find much about this kind of stuff yet lots of people do it. Is it something that can't be articulated?
[/quote]

To quote my other post in this thread "people looking to theory for a definitive guide as to what to play, and what not to play, are looking on the wrong place".

As others have also intimated, scales are an "outcome". A song is a group of chords, a chord is a group of notes relative to each other and the root key. Quite often the sum total of those notes happen to fall into a pattern we call a scale, treat that as a happy accident not as your sole vehicle for note selection.

Edited October 25, 2011 by bassman7755

[topo morto]

[quote name='cytania' timestamp='1319007640' post='1408722']
I guess most music is standard major scales. Certainly when I play the major scale at various points on the neck all sorts of melodies come to mind (or is it that they come to my fingers?), usually old hymns, children's songs and national anthems.
[/quote]
This is one place where musical education (the type that starts off by telling you 'Major=Happy, Minor=sad, and, er, that's all folks') is a bit unhelpful - because straightforward use of 'the major scale' is not as common as you'd think. You'd associate it with crappy boy band songs, and as you say, old hymns, children's songs and national anthems; comedy songs... that kind of thing.
you will often find that happier sounding music is in what could be described as the mixolydian mode - it's the same as major, but it has a flattened 7th.
There's an interesting crossover between the Major scale, the mixolydian mode, and the blues scale with its flattened 7th and ambiguous thirds... they're all good friends really.