mcnach Posted June 11, 2011 Share Posted June 11, 2011 I'm pretty inexperienced with fretless still, and my intonation has some room for improvement... But I have the impression that when a note is not quite right, it's more tolerable if it is slightly flat than if it is slightly sharp. Anybody else? Is there a "scientific" reason? Or is it just me? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beedster Posted June 11, 2011 Share Posted June 11, 2011 [quote name='mcnach' post='1265085' date='Jun 11 2011, 04:43 PM']I'm pretty inexperienced with fretless still, and my intonation has some room for improvement... But I have the impression that when a note is not quite right, it's more tolerable if it is slightly flat than if it is slightly sharp. Anybody else? Is there a "scientific" reason? Or is it just me?[/quote] Develop your vibrato and it won't matter. I don't think there is a right or wrong in relation to flat or sharp, both sound horrible. I think moving to correct pitch from an accidentally flat note is something that's easier to get away with than moving to correct pitch from an accidentally sharp note. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paul h Posted June 11, 2011 Share Posted June 11, 2011 I think there is a scientific reason. I just don't know what it is. However I do know that there are micro-tonal notes that work within scales. So I imagine what you have noticed is occasionally when playing slightly flat, you may be near to a relevant micro-tonal note. This is of course all guess work based on the fact that blues guitarists make use of certain micro-tonal bends all the time. Please ignore me. I have no idea. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EssentialTension Posted June 11, 2011 Share Posted June 11, 2011 I sometimes play fretless with a lap steel player. Some people would say that we are sometimes sharp or flat to each other. We prefer to call it spicy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EssentialTension Posted June 11, 2011 Share Posted June 11, 2011 [quote name='mcnach' post='1265085' date='Jun 11 2011, 04:43 PM']I'm pretty inexperienced with fretless still, and my intonation has some room for improvement... But I have the impression that when a note is not quite right, it's more tolerable if it is slightly flat than if it is slightly sharp. Anybody else? Is there a "scientific" reason? Or is it just me?[/quote] I think which note of the scale you are playing can also make a difference. For example, say you were playing a blues using a blues pentatonic scale, accuracy on the root note seems to me to matter more than accuracy on the flat third - it's as though the flat third of a blues scale is a slightly variable and expressive thing. The other possibility is that my ears are ****ed. However, +1 on Beedster's vibrato. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mart Posted June 11, 2011 Share Posted June 11, 2011 [quote name='EssentialTension' post='1265117' date='Jun 11 2011, 05:06 PM']I think which note of the scale you are playing can also make a difference. For example, say you were playing a blues using a blues pentatonic scale, accuracy on the root note seems to me to matter more than accuracy on the flat third - it's as though the flat third of a blues scale is a slightly variable and expressive thing. The other possibility is that my ears are ****ed. However, +1 on Beedster's vibrato.[/quote] I suspect this is the same issue as our varying sensitivity to different intervals. It's well documented that there are some intervals we're more sensitive about and some we're less sensitive about. Play an octave slightly out and everyone will notice. Play a third (major, minor, whatever) slightly out and far fewer people will notice. Neil Bibby's article in [url="http://ukcatalogue.oup.com/product/9780199298938.do"]this book[/url] has a lot more detail on this point. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
urb Posted June 11, 2011 Share Posted June 11, 2011 Some tips from a certain Mr Gary Willis on the subject: [url="http://garywillis.com/pages/bass/bassmanual/intonation4.html"]http://garywillis.com/pages/bass/bassmanual/intonation4.html[/url] He advocates rolling your finger 'into' the note and then using vibrato to find the tuning, not to heavily but quite slowly - he also favours a lined neck as the increments to which you need to play notes across the neck changes depending where you are - i.e. low or high - hope that helps Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EssentialTension Posted June 11, 2011 Share Posted June 11, 2011 [quote name='urb' post='1265157' date='Jun 11 2011, 05:50 PM']Some tips from a certain Mr Gary Willis on the subject: [url="http://garywillis.com/pages/bass/bassmanual/intonation4.html"]http://garywillis.com/pages/bass/bassmanual/intonation4.html[/url] He advocates rolling your finger 'into' the note and then using vibrato to find the tuning, not to heavily but quite slowly - he also favours a lined neck as the increments to which you need to play notes across the neck changes depending where you are - i.e. low or high - hope that helps[/quote] A while ago I started a thread asking about what Willis says on that site - it led to some dispute: [url="http://basschat.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=62523"]http://basschat.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=62523[/url] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gub Posted June 11, 2011 Share Posted June 11, 2011 mmm interesting ,i am having the same problems with flats and sharps on the newish fretless,but no lines to guide me ,looking at that diagram this may be a good thing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WinterMute Posted June 12, 2011 Share Posted June 12, 2011 Geddy Lee says if you play fast enough it doesn't matter..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Linus27 Posted June 12, 2011 Share Posted June 12, 2011 [quote name='EssentialTension' post='1265109' date='Jun 11 2011, 04:58 PM']I sometimes play fretless with a lap steel player. Some people would say that we are sometimes sharp or flat to each other. We prefer to call it spicy. [/quote] HAHAHAHA I love that, we prefer to call it Spicey. I am so going to use that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Linus27 Posted June 12, 2011 Share Posted June 12, 2011 [quote name='WinterMute' post='1265878' date='Jun 12 2011, 11:44 AM']Geddy Lee says if you play fast enough it doesn't matter..... [/quote] Thats actually quite true. I have some really busy melodic bass lines that in my head would be harder and more prone to be out of tune on a fretless but I find I play them more in tune than the bass lines with fewer notes and more space. I put it down to get getting on with it and playing naturally where as the few notes bass lines I tend to over think more. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BottomE Posted June 12, 2011 Share Posted June 12, 2011 [quote name='fpbass' post='1266442' date='Jun 12 2011, 06:53 PM']That's about it too.[/quote] Element of truth to that. Thought i was a natural on a fretless till i did a very slow tempo tune Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DanOwens Posted June 12, 2011 Share Posted June 12, 2011 It comes down to the ancient mysticism of Equal Temperament. Lets take the note of A# or Bb. On a piano they are the same note but in True Temperament they are two separate notes separated by a microtone. When playing fretless or upright we can make the adjustments to correctly tune the notes (my old bass teacher Steve Berry was a god at this stuff). I guess if you're ear is listening closely, you'll notice the tuning dependant on the key signature that you're in. Dan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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