Varying cab levels. Help!!!

[Westie9]

Hi All,

I need help with a solution to a problem I have:

I have a SWR 750x head which has two speaker outputs (1 and 2). Now the first output will go to my GK neo 212 (600w) for the main sound, what I want to do now is to add a monitor cab to the second output just for me on stage. I currently have a GK 210 BLX which would be ideal but only pushes out a max of 200w.

Is there any way that I can adjust the volume on the BLX without adjusting the NEO so that I can still have the volume from the Neo with a quieter monitoring from the BLX without risk of blowing the BLX to pieces? I play with an 8 piece soul band so yes, I need the power from the NEO.

The 750 x doesn't have a separate volume control for the two speaker outputs.

Please help, what little hair I have left is going due to not being able to hear myself in stage !!! Is there anything out there???

[mart]

The short answer is no. The way your amp is wired, both cabs will get the same amount of power, and there really isn't any way to change that. There may be some piece of kit you can buy that will do what you want - some sort of speaker attenuator, but I don't know about those things.

Edited June 11, 2011 by mart

[chris_b]

Sit the 210 on top of the 212. I assume that you're getting an on stage balance with the horns? So you won't be running anything like 750 watts out of your amp. I'd be surprised if you'll need more than 200-300 watts, so split that between 2 cabs and you won't be running the risk of damaging the 210.

[Westie9]

[quote name='mart' post='1264797' date='Jun 11 2011, 12:02 PM']The short answer is no. The way your amp is wired, both cabs will get the same amount of power, and there really isn't any way to change that. There may be some piece of kit you can buy that will do what you want - some sort of speaker attenuator, but I don't know about those things.[/quote]

Many thanks for a quick reply. Anybody else able offer some advice? There must be a little box Of tricks out there that I can use???

[skankdelvar]

I'm surprised an 8-piece soul band (presumably with a horn section) hasn't got [i]some [/i]sort of monitoring in place already.

I suppose one could try sticking a speaker attenuator between the amp and the 'monitor' cab. Cost £100-200 s/h. That said, there might be 'issues' involved - amp experts can clarify. Another option would be to run a post-eq line into an inexpensive little Maplins power amp, thence to the 'monitor' cab. £100?

Myself, I'd just flog the 2x10 and put the money towards a powered monitor. For one thing, it'll be tilted up towards your head which will improve matters no end.

Edited June 11, 2011 by skankdelvar

[Monckyman]

What Skank said.
If you just want to make use of what you have, you`ll need to get another amp.
Nothing flash, just 200watts of something cheap and small with the right ohmage to suit your 210.
Run this from the power-amp/line out, from your main amp and adjust the volume on it accordingly.
You can then balance either cab with it`s own level and eq.
The smaller setup may also make a nice rehearsal/home rig.
I know it`s more cash and more to carry, but I can`t think of any other solution.
MM

Edited June 11, 2011 by Monckyman

[Westie9]

Thanks for all your comments and help. I know what you mean about going through the PA but for the smaller venues they prefer me under my own support.

Going through a line / DI out into a small combo ? Why the hell didn't i think of that ???? Thanks Skankdelvar and everyone else for the assistance.

Gallien Krueger 210 BLX cab for sale in MarketPlace. £75 any takers???

[ThomBassmonkey]

My advice would be to get a small head. Something like the GK MB200 would be perfect, it only puts out 200w at 4Ohms anyway, it should have enough beef to power one 8Ohm 2x10 for monitoring and it's so small you wouldn't need to take anything extra. It'd also work as a backup head if something goes wrong with your main head.

It's a much more convenient and practical solution to selling half of your current gear then having to find another combo that potentially could be bigger and heavier than what you're currently using.

[Westie9]

[quote name='ThomBassmonkey' post='1264899' date='Jun 11 2011, 01:52 PM']My advice would be to get a small head. Something like the GK MB200 would be perfect, it only puts out 200w at 4Ohms anyway, it should have enough beef to power one 8Ohm 2x10 for monitoring and it's so small you wouldn't need to take anything extra. It'd also work as a backup head if something goes wrong with your main head.

It's a much more convenient and practical solution to selling half of your current gear then having to find another combo that potentially could be bigger and heavier than what you're currently using.[/quote]


Thanks All, I have just this second placed an order for a GK MB200. £206, it's worth taking the gamble.

[dmccombe7]

[quote name='Monckyman' post='1264889' date='Jun 11 2011, 01:39 PM']What Skank said.
If you just want to make use of what you have, you`ll need to get another amp.
Nothing flash, just 200watts of something cheap and small with the right ohmage to suit your 210.
Run this from the power-amp/line out, from your main amp and adjust the volume on it accordingly.
You can then balance either cab with it`s own level and eq.
The smaller setup may also make a nice rehearsal/home rig.
I know it`s more cash and more to carry, but I can`t think of any other solution.
MM[/quote]

Yep agree with this.
Have used this kind of set up with multiple amps and cabs when power amps were smaller and works well. Similar to how PA systems operate with each amp driving a set of cabs. You can then adjust volume to each pair of cabs to suit each venue. Gives a touch more flexibility. i.e. bass, mid, horn volumes if that makes sense.

One question though is WHY ? Surely the SWR is more than loud enough on stage anyways. At 600W that is by far pretty loud.
If you can't hear yourself with current set up is there something amiss with your EQ.

Now curious as to final solution / outcome ??

Cheers
Dave

Edited June 13, 2011 by dmccombe7

[Westie9]

[quote name='dmccombe7' post='1267770' date='Jun 13 2011, 07:28 PM']Yep agree with this.
Have used this kind of set up with multiple amps and cabs when power amps were smaller and works well. Similar to how PA systems operate with each amp driving a set of cabs. You can then adjust volume to each pair of cabs to suit each venue. Gives a touch more flexibility. i.e. bass, mid, horn volumes if that makes sense.

One question though is WHY ? Surely the SWR is more than loud enough on stage anyways. At 600W that is by far pretty loud.
If you can't hear yourself with current set up is there something amiss with your EQ.

Now curious as to final solution / outcome ??

Cheers
Dave[/quote]



The problem I have is that the last couple of gigs, although larger sized venues, the stage space was tiny, especially with our full compliment. As such I was standing right in front of the 410 so the sound was going right through me. I was literally playing blind whilst watching the glasses on the bar jump up an down !!!!

Yes, my eq needs honing in, but I never want to be in that position again. God knows what I was playing, whether it be right or wrong, I was way out of my comfort zone. Not a nice place to be at all.

Different speaker placement of my 410 would obviously help but what I am after is to be able to have my own monitor that is MINE, nobody elses so that I can adjust it for me. The 410 then can be set by the sound guy level wise and very much ignored by me during our set.

Am I going about this the right way???

[dmccombe7]

[quote name='Westie9' post='1267874' date='Jun 13 2011, 08:53 PM']The problem I have is that the last couple of gigs, although larger sized venues, the stage space was tiny, especially with our full compliment. As such I was standing right in front of the 410 so the sound was going right through me. I was literally playing blind whilst watching the glasses on the bar jump up an down !!!!

Yes, my eq needs honing in, but I never want to be in that position again. God knows what I was playing, whether it be right or wrong, I was way out of my comfort zone. Not a nice place to be at all.

Different speaker placement of my 410 would obviously help but what I am after is to be able to have my own monitor that is MINE, nobody elses so that I can adjust it for me. The 410 then can be set by the sound guy level wise and very much ignored by me during our set.

Am I going about this the right way???[/quote]

An old trick from way back was to stand cabinet on beer racks. Is it an option to maybe raise your cab enough to within earshot or would that take you within ear damage area ? You might lose some depth from cab by doing this though.
Would another cab on the 4x10 give sufficient height to allow you to actually hear the bass.
I'm trying to imagine that many people on a small stage whereby you don't "feel" the bass if you know what i mean.
Is the band using a full PA system. When using a full PA i tend to have no backline whatsoever and rely on PA mix. That is usually with a 3 piece band which makes it far more easy to recognise the bass.
I can understand your frustration if playing with 8 piece.
You can buy small wedge shaped monitor combo amps. Can't remember any of their names ? If facing back on you they won't need to be as loud as SWR rig but you will be sacrificing the sound you hear rather than hearing the expensive SWR set up which seems a bit of a shame.

Difficult one and probably beyond my level of expertise I'm afraid.
I'm still curious though.

Cheers
Dave

[Monckyman]

I have to say, if you often get squashed into dairlea sized stages with your 8 piece, then maybe another box on stage isn`t the best idea?
Could consider In ear monitoring, I know a couple of others have gone that route.
Just a thought.
MM

[chris_b]

[quote name='Westie9' post='1267874' date='Jun 13 2011, 08:53 PM']....Am I going about this the right way???....[/quote]
I don't think so.

You seem to be selling everything before you know what's causing your problem. The fix could be as simple as just changing your EQ. I'd put all the tone controls flat and start from there.

As you're in a soul band and not a Megadeth tribute band I'm not sure how you can run a 750 watt amp into a 212 and not hear it!!

This problem has got to be with the EQ settings!

Edited June 14, 2011 by chris_b

[xgsjx]

I'm agreeing with Chris here, you're changing things blindly without checking what you need.
A GK head is a different sounding head from your SWR, so what sounds good through your monitor could sound pants out front.
My advice would be try the EQ first.
If you've got a little money then get a stand to put your cab on (there's a thread about that somewhere) or if you have a spare £500 then get another Neo 212 & put it on top of your current one.
This way you'll hear what the audience hears (only a bit louder ).

[TimR]

[quote name='Westie9' post='1267874' date='Jun 13 2011, 08:53 PM']...
As such I was standing right in front of the 410 so the sound was going right through me.
...

Different speaker placement of my 410 would obviously help


but what I am after is to be able to have my own monitor that is MINE, nobody elses so that I can adjust it for me. The 410 then can be set by the sound guy level wise and very much ignored by me during our set.

Am I going about this the right way???[/quote]

The best place for your 410 is up against the back wall. Your ears are not in your legs so you ned to tip your 410 back or lift it up so that it is pointing at your ears.

Alternatively a 2x10 on top powered by a separate amp might be the way to go for this situation.

[ThomBassmonkey]

I don't see the problem.

Bass doesn't always go through the PA, I can't comment on the OP's band because I don't know the ins and outs but if, at small venues, his 410 is pushing out enough volume for out front but he can't hear it because it's pointed at his knees, having a dedicated monitor is exactly the way to go.

Tilting, moving or raising cabs isn't always practical. It often means putting it somewhere where it's not ideal for the audience or in a precarious place (on a stool, at an angle etc). It could be the perfect fix or it could end up damaging his cab and having no effect anyway.

If the OP has a spare cab and is willing to throw a couple of hundred pounds at a small head like an MB200, then he's going to be sorted, whatever the circumstances are. Running with the MB200 for a moment, it's tiny, it'll take up very little space on stage and in a bag, it'll give TOTAL control over his on-stage sound (including EQ and volume) and it's not as expensive as some of the other solutions. Having a backup head never hurts and it'll be a lot more flexible than some other options.

Having a small 2x10 pointed across the stage or angled up will give good control of the on stage sound without affecting what's going out front too much. If you're not at the point where you have good monitoring at gigs and you're carting around the extra cab anyway, it's a good, easy solution.

[xgsjx]

But isn't a solution for the tiny stage mentioned (unless he kicks someone off the stage) & I don't understand why the OP would use a 4x10 when he has a 2x12.
I'd flog the 2x10 & the 4x10 & get a 2nd 212, thus giving him the same sound as the audience hears.

[ThomBassmonkey]

[quote name='xgsjx' post='1269459' date='Jun 14 2011, 11:53 PM']But isn't a solution for the tiny stage mentioned (unless he kicks someone off the stage) & I don't understand why the OP would use a 4x10 when he has a 2x12.
I'd flog the 2x10 & the 4x10 & get a 2nd 212, thus giving him the same sound as the audience hears.[/quote]

Agreed, I use two GK NEO212s (the OP says he has one in his first post) and it's near enough ear level that I just use that for my monitoring and the audience gets sound directly from that as well as through the PA.

If he wants a monitor that's [b]his[/b] and he can do what he wants with minimum effect on the FOH sound though, the easiest way is to get a small 2nd head and run another back facing cab from that. A 2x10 doesn't take up too much floor space, not much more than a normal monitor. If the PA doesn't have monitoring and he's up against a horn section and drums with his own amp aimed at his knees, it could be just the trick.

Also, I know the OP mentions a 4x10 in one of his posts but without knowing what it is, it's hard to say if he'll get enough money between that and his 2x10 (the GK BL series are only basic amps and really don't sell for much) to afford a second NEO212 which are GK's pro neo range (though still inexpensive for how good they are IMO). Also if he wants a different sound on stage without monitoring (which it sounds like), it's not really possible with one amp.

[chris_b]

I can easily hear both my rigs (2x210 or 2x112 and a 450 watt amp) when I'm standing as close as 6" in front and neither comes up to my waist, so I don't understand how the bass can't be heard.

Is there a keyboard player near using your frequencies?

[spinynorman]

I used to have problems hearing myself till I got a Markbass combo. Now I can stand in front of it, behind it, beside it or on top of it and it all sounds good. Also sounds a lot better at lower volumes than the Hartke head I had before.

[xgsjx]

Here's a GK Neo 212 for £250. Might just be your ticket?

[url="http://basschat.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=136103"]Linky.[/url]