Are we emotionally mature enough to learn?

[Bilbo]

Just a few thoughts from saxophonist Branford Marsalis on what he has learned from his students. Offers pause for thought, I think?

[chris_b]

That's an interesting way to quit teaching.

[Vibrating G String]

Good points but I don't think it has anything to do with music or kids today, just human nature.

[icastle]

I think it's a two way street.

Whilst it's perhaps true that many students expect to be told how good they are, it's also incumbent on a good teacher to add a sense of reality to the situation and ensure that grades are appropriate to the level of commitment and skill that the student has attained.

Anything less than that just devalues the qualification and weakens the knowledgebase of the subject matter.

[ZMech]

as icastle said, surely it's any good teachers job to compliment their students successes, as well as point out the weaknesses. So long as you don't give them a false sense of grandeur then it's perfectly fine.

[icastle]

[quote name='Johnston' post='1231803' date='May 15 2011, 11:40 AM']I think the point is they want the egos stroked but without having their weaknesses pointed out.

People don't like that these days where everyones a winner blah blah . And if people are paying money and not getting the verbal boosting they want they will likely go to someone who will regardless of their skills.[/quote]

True but the eventual effect is that employers get wise to it.

Take the European Computer Driving Licence (ECDL) that was hyped by the government a few years back.
It didn't take long for private sector employers to realise that owning that qualification didn't equate to the standards of IT literacy they were looking for.

[TimR]

Interesting sound bite. I wonder what the rest of it was like.

If Harvard gave everyone Bs pretty soon the employers would stop employing people from Harvard and word would get round and their reputation would suffer.

It's always been true that the best teachers are those that give words of support and encouragement. Is that blowing smoke up people's Ars*s?

This is why examinations should always be externally set and marked. Then it doesn't matter what the student thinks or how lenient the teacher is.

He is talking about Americans though.

[LawrenceH]

In every generation there's always someone who goes on about how much harder it was in their day, then uses selective evidence to show it whilst conveniently forgetting how much they learned later on in their professional lives, rather than when they were actually students.

Of course there're plenty of people who coast through, but he's completely ignoring the ones who do work hard and will be the next generation of stars in their chosen field.

What I've learned from this video is that Branford Marsalis has a bit of an attitude problem to teaching. Incidentally, it reminds me of the unequivocal generalisations made by (I think) Wynton Marsalis about what music did and didn't constitute jazz. By his definition, pretty much anything that moved beyond Kind of Blue wasn't jazz, as far as I could tell.

[icastle]

[quote name='LawrenceH' post='1231846' date='May 15 2011, 12:24 PM']In every generation there's always someone who goes on about how much harder it was in their day, then uses selective evidence to show it whilst conveniently forgetting how much they learned later on in their professional lives, rather than when they were actually students.[/quote]

That's certainly true up to a point.
I learnt how to read, write and understand numbers when I was at school, but the biggest and most valuable thing I learned was how to learn.

[Bilbo]

Teachers are buisnessmen and colleges are businesses. In my recent experience, tutors of all kinds in formal establishments are pretty much told not to fail anyone. Great for business, lousy for education and students. Education seems to be about fulfilling the fantasy not about improving the student's abilities. Branford Marsalis, great as he is, is perfectly aware of his shortcomings (has finished gigs by apologising to the audience for having a bad night and telling them to ask for their oney back) and is very openminded (has played with Sting, The Grateful Dead, Bruce Hornsby and a load of other rock and pop acts). I suspect he is seeing what I see whenever I have contact with music colleges; an education system that puts its business objectives first and its students learning and development needs last. I have seen 'music' students that can't actually play a note, can't sing in tune and have no idea. What they do have is the fees. Whats [i]that[/i] about if its not getting the whole thing wrong?

[icastle]

[quote name='Johnston' post='1231877' date='May 15 2011, 12:55 PM']I was talking more from the paid tutor perspective.

Paying customer comes along pays his money. Gets told he needs to practise more practice harder, well you're not at the standard to go out and gig. your timings off etc etc etc . Not happy paying customer goes to another tutor and gets told yes your brill punching waayy above your weight you'll be playing sell out crowds at the O2. Punter might not be getting any better but thinks he is and goes away happy.

I've seen guys leaving race prep places because they were told no it wasn't the car, the car is not down in power you were on the right tyres. No the diff wasn't f***ed yes the suspension was set right you were just not as quick as the other guy. So off they go to the guy that says you're great the engine was down in power etc etc etc. Needless to say the only thing that ever changed was their repair bills.

Same down the rallyschool. People didn't like it when they were told they weren't as good as they thought they were. They didn't like it when they were told what they needed to do to improve. They wanted to hear the were the next McRae. Some folk listened and improved some went home in a huff because they didn't set fastest time and didn't get put through to the scholarship and of course the instructors wouldn't know true talent if it slapped them in the face.[/quote]

It's a self healing process though.
Students who storm off in a huff when their egos don't get stroked unwarrantedly leave the field clear for those who are there to learn.
Those who are open to learning are always going to fare better than those who think they know best and before long, that teacher is going to get a reputation for quality students.

[TimR]

Maybe instead of the word soon I should have used eventually.

It's becoming fairly evident now that you need a 1st Class Hons degree to stack supermarket shelves. Not because more people are better educated but because more people have degrees.

There will come a time when it will all change. I believe we're already rapidly approaching a time where the number of university places is dropping and then the number of students will drop. This will make it even more important that standards are upheld. If universities continue to under-perform compared to the people who are getting vocational qualifications, people will stop paying the huge fees.

[icastle]

[quote name='Bilbo' post='1231897' date='May 15 2011, 01:07 PM']Teachers are buisnessmen and colleges are businesses. In my recent experience, tutors of all kinds in formal establishments are pretty much told not to fail anyone. Great for business, lousy for education and students. Education seems to be about fulfilling the fantasy not about improving the student's abilities. Branford Marsalis, great as he is, is perfectly aware of his shortcomings (has finished gigs by apologising to the audience for having a bad night and telling them to ask for their oney back) and is very openminded (has played with Sting, The Grateful Dead, Bruce Hornsby and a load of other rock and pop acts). I suspect he is seeing what I see whenever I have contact with music colleges; an education system that puts its business objectives first and its students learning and development needs last. I have seen 'music' students that can't actually play a note, can't sing in tune and have no idea. What they do have is the fees. Whats [i]that[/i] about if its not getting the whole thing wrong?[/quote]

Totally agree.
But as I said, those establishments are going to get a reputation for generating lacklustre candidates in 'real' world situations.

Our education establishments should be very ashamed of themselves frankly.

I once had a final year music degree student ask me where I got my degree from, the assumption being that, because I could play alongside a range of musicians I'd never worked with before, I must have a degree...

[Bilbo]

Eggsactly. Wrong targets = wrong business practices. Targets should be the acquisition of the [i]skill[/i], not the qualification. Government departments want you to get qualifications so that they can stand at teh dispatch box and say you did. The fact that you are no better qualified or no nearer getting a job is academic. They paid for the training, now its your fault you haven't got a job, not theirs.

[Doddy]

[quote name='ZMech' post='1231790' date='May 15 2011, 11:26 AM']as icastle said, surely it's any good teachers job to compliment their students successes, as well as point out the weaknesses. So long as you don't give them a false sense of grandeur then it's perfectly fine.[/quote]
But,so many people want you to give them a false sense of grandeur. I've had loads of people come to me for lessons
who,as soon as you point out something that they can improve on or give them something that they struggle with,you never hear from again. They want you to tell them that they are great so they can tell their friends that they went for a lesson and the teacher couldnt show them anything-you can tell this within about 5 minutes.
It's usually most evident amongst guys who are usually late teens/early 20's and have played in a band or two,but have never actually learned anything.

[quote name='Bilbo' post='1231897' date='May 15 2011, 01:07 PM']I have seen 'music' students that can't actually play a note, can't sing in tune and have no idea. What they do have is the fees. Whats [i]that[/i] about if its not getting the whole thing wrong?[/quote]
I've seen this too.I've spoken to guys who've graduated from certain music schools and can't even read a note.If you are spending a lot of time and money to study music,I would expect you to have learned the language. Having said that,a bass teacher at a well known music school was booked to dep for me for a couple of gigs at the end of last year-he did one gig and then the MD got someone else in.Apparently,he was pretty bad-wasn't grooving and couldn't read the charts.

[LawrenceH]

None of this actually matters that much when we're talking about music though, career success in music doesn't come from degree qualifications. If people learn something when studying you hear it in their playing, not on a piece of paper.

[Doddy]

[quote name='LawrenceH' post='1232056' date='May 15 2011, 02:59 PM']None of this actually matters that much when we're talking about music though, career success in music doesn't come from degree qualifications. If people learn something when studying you hear it in their playing, not on a piece of paper.[/quote]

But,if you have chosen to study music and gained a degree from it,I think it's fair to say that there are some things you should be expected to know and/or do.If you can't,then I think there is something wrong.

[TimR]

[quote name='LawrenceH' post='1232056' date='May 15 2011, 02:59 PM']None of this actually matters that much when we're talking about music though, career success in music doesn't come from degree qualifications. If people learn something when studying you hear it in their playing, not on a piece of paper.[/quote]

It's the same in all subjects. The paperwork will get you the interview/audition. You still have to demonstrate you can do the job.

People turn up to interviews/auditions with qualifications as long as there arm and don't have the knowledge or skills to back up the paperwork.

[risingson]

Part of being a student is the ability to take on board constructive criticism and learning from it. If you're there to have your ego massaged by your teacher then you're getting lessons for the wrong reasons, worse still is if your teacher is entertaining this as a viable means of passing time in a lesson. It's the inherent problem with a lot of musicians; it is so easy to develop an ego once people start telling you you're a good player, and from then on music becomes this self-serving means of satisfying your ego as opposed to something that is truly remarkable.

Branford Marsalis is not helping himself here though. I've seen this video before and I would wager that at one time or another he will have been the same kind of student that he describes, he also sounds quite bitter. Everyone needs a degree of support to boost their confidence from a peer, and whilst I agree that such commendations shouldn't be given out at the drop of a hat, it is important to inspire confidence in a student if you're a teacher. Marsalis clearly lacks a degree of patience. Even the best players don't make for the best teachers.

[LawrenceH]

I found this interview quite interesting actually [url="http://www.scena.org/lsm/sm12-8/sm12-8_marsalis_en.html"]http://www.scena.org/lsm/sm12-8/sm12-8_marsalis_en.html[/url]

My personal favourite quote 'Nowadays, you see, you have guys who have been playing jazz since they were 12 years old and, all of a sudden, around 30, they start to try and play funk. They think that because there are far fewer notes, and the harmony is much simpler, it will be a walk in the park. But it turns out to be a disaster and only gets worse, a really pathetic slide.'

[Beer of the Bass]

He comes across as being a lot more reasonable in that written interview than in the video in the first post. I wonder if he'd had a bad day with his students shortly before that?
I like the comments about jazz and funk artists though. Though I love a lot of Jazz, and a lot of Funk, there are a fair few examples of Jazz-Funk which leave me cold!

[Spoombung]

....Bloody Students!

[Vibrating G String]

[quote name='TimR' post='1231835' date='May 15 2011, 04:13 AM']If Harvard gave everyone Bs pretty soon the employers would stop employing people from Harvard and word would get round and their reputation would suffer.[/quote]And if Fender made sub standard guitars soon people would stop buying them I think it would take decades to take down a reputation like Harvard's. Especially for the general public.

[Vibrating G String]

[quote name='Bilbo' post='1231897' date='May 15 2011, 05:07 AM']Branford Marsalis, great as he is, is perfectly aware of his shortcomings (has finished gigs by apologising to the audience for having a bad night and telling them to ask for their oney back)[/quote]
That's just so wrong. That's an artists insecurities telling the whole audience they're stupid if they enjoyed the evening. Too much of a princess move for me.

[JayPH]

[quote name='icastle' post='1231858' date='May 15 2011, 12:41 PM']That's certainly true up to a point.
I learnt how to read, write and understand numbers when I was at school, but the biggest and most valuable thing I learned was how to learn.[/quote]
Great point. The best part about doing a degree is that you actually learn how to Self-learn. Once you know how to research and disseminate information you can learn about things you start off knowing nothing about.

I used to do a bit of lecturing and I'm afraid to say it was nigh on impossible for a student to fail anything. It is a case of bums on seats pay the salaries at universities and especially in this climate. Students are paying big bucks and the universities pretty much have to kiss their arses.