Light Vs Heavy

[UncleMeat]

[quote name='4 candles' post='1175250' date='Mar 24 2011, 09:15 PM']light is better. fact[/quote]

There are no 'facts' - unless you're a politician. Certainly not when it comes to music.

Light is better - Your opinion.

Heavy? If it sounds good, so what, man-up and get it moved - My opinion.


If I like the sound I care not how much it weighs. Weight is not a criteria by which I judge audio equipment - because it's audio equipment, not aeroplane components. I load my own gear. I'm not that big, and I'm not that young either.

Although I have not tried it all I have yet to be blown away by the light-weight amps I have tried. Markbass left me cold and feels like it was made of Lego. GenzBenz Shuttle has got loads of buttons on but was still uberboring in it's soulless efficiency. These amps are 'impressive' but there is nothing exciting about them or their sound, and I am not a 'vintage gear purist' either.

I would be curious to try the SWR Headlite, as I love my old SWR gear, and that would be a good a/b test for me. Heard really good things about the TC stuff too, but in my mind, why have some set top box looking plastic digital thing that sounds like a big amp when you could have a big amp? Oh yeah, it's lighter... but are we trying to fly this thing across the Atlantic on a litre of fuel or play a bass through it?

I realise that I am in the minority but if it's heavy then it may just be built really well and be able to take a pounding on the road for years. Take your MB/TC/GB that you can fit in the palm of your hand and drop it on the floor from gut height. Does it still work? Even if you don't ever drop it, will it still work and sound good in 25-30 years or will it be redundant like your iPod?

Having said all this, I am super keen to have a go on some Barefaced cabs as they are supposed to be brilliant and very sensitive (which would be good for getting the most out of an old tube amp), but I really couldn't care less how easy they are to move!

While opinion-ating I have remembered that I'm moving to London soon - an amp that I can fit in my boxers and a cab that will balance on my head might be pretty handy on the tube... But, if anything I am going the other way - in the market for an old tube amp this year - the bigger the better. A match with a Barefaced could be the ultimate compromise.

Final thought - when I was at school getting a 'D' wasn't good enough. I'm not convinced that a 'D' is good enough now either. I like big cars, big women and big amps. And big tends to mean heavy.

[tauzero]

[quote name='alexclaber' post='1176321' date='Mar 25 2011, 06:33 PM']If you use the Superfly with a loud bass (so you don't run into the lack of preamp gain problem), and a loud cab or are not in too loud a band (so you don't run into the lack of power problem), and don't push it too hard or remove it from the aluminium outer case (so you don't run into the appalling cooling problem), and like a relatively clean uncoloured tone then it'll work just fine (assuming you don't get one of the many unreliable examples). [/quote]
I don't have a loud bass, all mine are perfectly capable of driving the preamp to clipping if I just turn the gain control up. My 500 was OK on power (I only used one channel with the Tech Soundsystem 4x10) but I got the Superduperfly so I didn't have to turn up quite so far. The Superduperfly also has a top-mounted fan and doesn't get finger-singeingly warm like the 500. I wouldn't mind changing for another lightweight, but only so I can use all the power instead of 50% of it (I may just do a little judicious rewiring of the 4x10 to help with that).

[UncleMeat]

<TEARING SOUND> Ouch! I've done my back!

Now I can't drive the heavy car, satisfy the heavy woman or lift my heavy amp.




FOR SALE Lots of great sounding bass gear that's really heavy.

WANTED One of them fancy new amps the size of a pack of crisps.



This might be me in a few years time.
If it is you all have licence to 'tell me so'.

[stingrayPete1977]

[quote name='UncleMeat' post='1176437' date='Mar 25 2011, 07:45 PM']There are no 'facts' - unless you're a politician. Certainly not when it comes to music.

Light is better - Your opinion.

Heavy? If it sounds good, so what, man-up and get it moved - My opinion.


If I like the sound I care not how much it weighs. Weight is not a criteria by which I judge audio equipment - because it's audio equipment, not aeroplane components. I load my own gear. I'm not that big, and I'm not that young either.

Although I have not tried it all I have yet to be blown away by the light-weight amps I have tried. Markbass left me cold and feels like it was made of Lego. GenzBenz Shuttle has got loads of buttons on but was still uberboring in it's soulless efficiency. These amps are 'impressive' but there is nothing exciting about them or their sound, and I am not a 'vintage gear purist' either.

I would be curious to try the SWR Headlite, as I love my old SWR gear, and that would be a good a/b test for me. Heard really good things about the TC stuff too, but in my mind, why have some set top box looking plastic digital thing that sounds like a big amp when you could have a big amp? Oh yeah, it's lighter... but are we trying to fly this thing across the Atlantic on a litre of fuel or play a bass through it?

I realise that I am in the minority but if it's heavy then it may just be built really well and be able to take a pounding on the road for years. Take your MB/TC/GB that you can fit in the palm of your hand and drop it on the floor from gut height. Does it still work? Even if you don't ever drop it, will it still work and sound good in 25-30 years or will it be redundant like your iPod?

Having said all this, I am super keen to have a go on some Barefaced cabs as they are supposed to be brilliant and very sensitive (which would be good for getting the most out of an old tube amp), but I really couldn't care less how easy they are to move!

While opinion-ating I have remembered that I'm moving to London soon - an amp that I can fit in my boxers and a cab that will balance on my head might be pretty handy on the tube... But, if anything I am going the other way - in the market for an old tube amp this year - the bigger the better. A match with a Barefaced could be the ultimate compromise.

Final thought - when I was at school getting a 'D' wasn't good enough. I'm not convinced that a 'D' is good enough now either. I like big cars, big women and big amps. And big tends to mean heavy.[/quote]

Light is better though, If it sounds exactlty like a big rig and has every feature of a big rig yet is lighter that makes it better, Fact. The only problem some people have is finding a lightweight amp they like as much as their big amps, once you have I cant see anyone going back unless they score a massive tour with a stage crew to take it around for them. I think a massive portion of wanting a big amp is for visual effect on stage or just as a penis extension. Anyone doing big live shows will be using other forms of monitoring with the bass on a DI, The dog and duck doesnt require an Ampeg 8x10 as its usually too loud and sees most of the punters to the next none music venue IME.

Part of the issue with small heads is they were designed as versatile portable heads for ease of transport but now they have become too good and in no mans land, Any comments I see on here now after trying and hearing enough comparisons of these amps about lack of power or bottom end I know to be shizzle from people who havent tried them or only tried them with small cabs. For instance someone said the Genz 6.0 had no power a while ago compared to their (Cant remember what but class A) amp with a 4x10 cabinet after trying one in BassDirect, When probed (ooh Err) it turns out they tried it with a 1x12 cab, How is that a fair comparison? If they had took their own 4x10 with them to try it through they may of had a very different opinion!

[ThomBassmonkey]

[quote name='UncleMeat' post='1176437' date='Mar 25 2011, 07:45 PM']If I like the sound I care not how much it weighs.[/quote]

This is the truth to an extent.

My rig weighs 250ish lbs IIRC, I still lug it about to big gigs, I only take one cab to smaller gigs so it weighs a mere 150ish (just for the cab and head, not including basses, leads etc).

In saying that though, it's just not worth it for tiny gigs and practices. If I'm playing to several hundred people, 1080w into two 4x10s is great, maybe still a bit overkill but it gets me the tone I love and using more speakers makes it sound better (IMO at least, two 4x10s sound better than 1, not just louder, probably to do with elevation).

I intend to go down the lightweight route for smaller gigs and practices, the rig I'm looking at (MB Fusion and 2 NEO212s) weighs under 130lbs for the rull stack, about half of my current rig as well as being smaller and more convenient (less trips to the car for example).

[stingrayPete1977]

[quote name='ThomBassmonkey' post='1176485' date='Mar 25 2011, 08:18 PM']This is the truth to an extent.

My rig weighs 250ish lbs IIRC, I still lug it about to big gigs, I only take one cab to smaller gigs so it weighs a mere 150ish (just for the cab and head, not including basses, leads etc).

In saying that though, it's just not worth it for tiny gigs and practices. If I'm playing to several hundred people, 1080w into two 4x10s is great, maybe still a bit overkill but it gets me the tone I love and using more speakers makes it sound better (IMO at least, two 4x10s sound better than 1, not just louder, probably to do with elevation).

I intend to go down the lightweight route for smaller gigs and practices, the rig I'm looking at (MB Fusion and 2 NEO212s) weighs under 130lbs for the rull stack, about half of my current rig as well as being smaller and more convenient (less trips to the car for example).[/quote]

If your playing to 300+ people how much of front of house volume is from your amp compared to the PA? Really for a balanced sound in a venue that size most of what they hear should be from the PA IMO anyway. Many pro's dont have an amp at all now, DI pedal or box etc and away they go

[UncleMeat]

[quote name='stingrayPete1977' post='1176467' date='Mar 25 2011, 08:08 PM']Light is better though, If it sounds exactlty like a big rig and has every feature of a big rig yet is lighter that makes it better, Fact. The only problem some people have is finding a lightweight amp they like as much as their big amps, once you have I cant see anyone going back unless they score a massive tour with a stage crew to take it around for them. I think a massive portion of wanting a big amp is for visual effect on stage or just as a penis extension. Anyone doing big live shows will be using other forms of monitoring with the bass on a DI, The dog and duck doesnt require an Ampeg 8x10 as its usually too loud and sees most of the punters to the next none music venue IME.

Part of the issue with small heads is they were designed as versatile portable heads for ease of transport but now they have become too good and in no mans land, Any comments I see on here now after trying and hearing enough comparisons of these amps about lack of power or bottom end I know to be shizzle from people who havent tried them or only tried them with small cabs. For instance someone said the Genz 6.0 had no power a while ago compared to their (Cant remember what but class A) amp with a 4x10 cabinet after trying one in BassDirect, When probed (ooh Err) it turns out they tried it with a 1x12 cab, How is that a fair comparison? If they had took their own 4x10 with them to try it through they may of had a very different opinion![/quote]



I don't agree that light is 'better', it's just 'lighter'. If weight is a problem then lighter is better, but for me it just isn't one of the criteria on my list - and for the record I don't have roadies, and do tour pretty regularly.
I agree with pretty much everything else you say though. You are spot on about comparisons - that's why trying an SWR Headlite through my speakers would give me a direct comparison to my amp, and would love a chance to do just that. I have tried Markbass and Genz, can't comment on the sound of TC and others directly as I haven't tried them myself. I was genuinely unimpressed with both, and that was through bigger cabs rather than little 1x12 etc. As for the 'penis effect' there is definitely some truth in that, although for me big cabs mean the sound is up by my ears where I can hear it over the drummer as opposed to just feel it through the floor. Most of the gigs I do are loud gigs. When I play with a female singer songwriter I use a Redhead 2x10 combo. That's not exactly lightweight either - although it does strap rather nicely to a sack barrow.

You made no comment as to the build quality of these things though, and for me that would be an issue. Can they be knocked about on tour without damage? The ones I have seen/heard first hand certainly wouldn't take any kind of beating. I'm thinking in terms of a Transit full of gear and a band that sleeps and lives on that gear for three weeks at a time. For my purposes I haven't heard a lightweight amp that sounded better than what I already have, or that was built anywhere near as solidly. But I haven't played through them all.

[stingrayPete1977]

I was speaking in terms of if they had [i]exactly[/i] the same sound but one was light and one was heavy then lighter has more of advantage than heavy as long as you fix the head down if needed. I think you got what I was saying though so thats good, Rather than lightweights are better than heavyweights thats not what I claim at all.

As for knocking them about, well a hardcase/flightcase wont cost the earth or weigh much more for transportation in a tour bus etc, Or a small rack may still be required if you have other stuff too thats rack mounted but boy will that rack case weigh less!

The more something weighs the more damage it does to itself too, Drop a feather nothing, Drop a piano - boing! Isaac Newton if im correct? I know an Ampeg of yesteryear is meant to be solid but you still dont want to knock it off the top of an 8x10 too often do you? The fact its small and portable just meens you would treat it more like a mixing desk or a multi effects unit although they are tougher than they look anyway. Genz shuttles are all metal including the knobs which is better than some of the plastic ones, I will agree there.

Sound of the amp is subjective so thats a seperate issue, I wouldnt swap the Genz for an Ampeg,EBS,Orange or Ashdown if you waved a magic wand over them all and the Genz became heavy and the others all became portable yet sounded as they do know. Thats not an attack on those brands (Im good friends with EBS_freak and he knows I would say that to him too ) they are just not my cuppa rosey thats all.

[thinman]

Can I suggest a small fold up trolley from Screwfix for about £30? That's for transporting the amp - not playing through - they sound rubbish.

That way you can choose your amp more on sound preference etc and not practicality.

"Age old debate" - may be Old age debate?

[waynepunkdude]

[quote name='thinman' post='1176615' date='Mar 25 2011, 09:56 PM']Can I suggest a small fold up trolley from Screwfix for about £30? That's for transporting the amp - not playing through - they sound rubbish.

That way you can choose your amp more on sound preference etc and not practicality.

"Age old debate" - may be Old age debate?[/quote]


To be honest taking it to practice and small gigs is still a pain, I'm looking forward to getting the RH450 and having the SVT best of both worlds.

[nash]

[quote name='stingrayPete1977' post='1176467' date='Mar 25 2011, 08:08 PM']Light is better though, If it sounds exactlty like a big rig and has every feature of a big rig yet is lighter that makes it better, Fact.[/quote]

that's your ears.

it phisically can't sound the same. just like if you had an amp, a 4x10 cab and an 8x10. the tone would be different ofrom both cabs because they are different.

just like you wouldn't sound like Geddy Lee if you walked up to him, took his bass and played YYZ.

light weight amps will never sound the same as a valve amp.


i've realised what i think is missing from non valve amps and it's body. although i believe in horses for coures and my favourite SS amp brand is Aguilar because it sounds like it sounds and it's not trying to emulate a valve head.

[xgsjx]

Are you trying to tell me a lightweight valve amp wont sound as good as a 3 tonne valve amp?
& if a lightweight valve or solid state amp sounds just as good as it's heavy contemporary, then being light gives it that +1 better.

[waynepunkdude]

[quote name='xgsjx' post='1176673' date='Mar 25 2011, 10:47 PM']Are you trying to tell me a lightweight valve amp wont sound as good as a 3 tonne valve amp?
& if a lightweight valve or solid state amp sounds just as good as it's heavy contemporary, then being light gives it that +1 better.[/quote]


Unless you have a helium based cab.

[nash]

[quote name='xgsjx' post='1176673' date='Mar 25 2011, 10:47 PM']Are you trying to tell me a lightweight valve amp wont sound as good as a 3 tonne valve amp?
& if a lightweight valve or solid state amp sounds just as good as it's heavy contemporary, then being light gives it that +1 better.[/quote]

no i'm saying it will sound different.

good and worse is up to you.

i personally do not like the sound of light weight amps.

[stingrayPete1977]

[quote name='nash' post='1176663' date='Mar 25 2011, 10:42 PM']that's your ears.

it phisically can't sound the same. just like if you had an amp, a 4x10 cab and an 8x10. the tone would be different ofrom both cabs because they are different.

just like you wouldn't sound like Geddy Lee if you walked up to him, took his bass and played YYZ.

light weight amps will never sound the same as a valve amp.


i've realised what i think is missing from non valve amps and it's body. although i believe in horses for coures and my favourite SS amp brand is Aguilar because it sounds like it sounds and it's not trying to emulate a valve head.[/quote]

Unlike others you didn't get my my point (I wasn't very clear I admit)

What I'm saying is if they sounded exactly the same the lighter one would be better as there are no advantages to extra weight just for weights sake, the only small disadvantage is that they can shuffle off if not held down.

As for the sound that's your opinion where weight can be measured factually.

[stingrayPete1977]

[quote name='nash' post='1176689' date='Mar 25 2011, 11:01 PM']no i'm saying it will sound different.

good and worse is up to you.

i personally do not like the sound of light weight amps.[/quote]
Is it light weight amps or hi fi amps you don't like though?

[tauzero]

[quote name='nash' post='1176689' date='Mar 25 2011, 11:01 PM']i personally do not like the sound of light weight amps.[/quote]
So do you think that a Superfly sounds better when the aluminium casing is on than when it's off?

[nash]

[quote name='stingrayPete1977' post='1176692' date='Mar 25 2011, 11:04 PM']Is it light weight amps or hi fi amps you don't like though?[/quote]


light weight. if needed for tone reasons i will use and have had a hifi amp.

the if it sounded exactly the same and was lighter comment should go without saying because it is not a tone issue.

[xgsjx]

Is it Valve Vs Solid State as opposed to Light Vs Heavy, or have you tried some lightweight valve amps & didn't like them?

[chrismuzz]

A common misconception is that lightweight rigs are incapable of producing a nice big low end. It may be the case with some brands but my rig actually produces a bit too much sometimes and I have to attenuate the lows a little! I think lightweight gear is incredibly convenient, and i'm more than happy with the sound of mine so I'm lucky enough to not have to bother with the heavier stuff any more. So in my own personal world, light = better

edited because my spelling appears to get worse by the day

Edited March 25, 2011 by chrismuzz

[xgsjx]

[quote name='waynepunkdude' post='1176684' date='Mar 25 2011, 10:56 PM']Unless you have a helium based cab.[/quote]
That's just GAS

[stingrayPete1977]

[quote name='chrismuzz' post='1176702' date='Mar 25 2011, 11:09 PM']A common misconception is that lightweight rigs are incapable of producing a nice big low end. It may be the case with some brands but my rig actually produces a bit too much sometimes and I have to attenuate the lows a little! I think lightweight gear is incredibly convenient, and i'm more than happy with the sound of mine so I'm lucky enough to not have to bother with the heavier stuff any more. So in my own personal world, light = better

edited because my spelling appears to get worse by the day [/quote]
+1 never need much of the bottom or volume that I have available. Any suggestions they lack either is nonsense as many of us know and the latest models have even more of everything which you would probably never need but since when has that put anyone off? Just using a different output power amp makes little to no difference in most cases as people using valve gadgets as Preamps through class D amps already know. I don't really use my gain valve that much, just a hint for flavour. And when all is said and done the old using a DI anyway argument comes back, I use a very trebly stage sound from my amp if the bass is going out through the PA.

[nash]

[quote name='xgsjx' post='1176701' date='Mar 25 2011, 11:09 PM']Is it Valve Vs Solid State as opposed to Light Vs Heavy, or have you tried some lightweight valve amps & didn't like them?[/quote]


i'm only aware of one which is the MarkBass Classic 300.


chrismuzz. what i want is punch and bark. i've never gotten that from a SS or hybrid head.

[waynepunkdude]

[quote name='nash' post='1176711' date='Mar 25 2011, 11:24 PM']i'm only aware of one which is the MarkBass Classic 300.


chrismuzz. what i want is punch and bark. i've never gotten that from a SS or hybrid head.[/quote]


Have you tried this?

[nash]

genius!