LawrenceH Posted February 3, 2011 Share Posted February 3, 2011 [quote name='alexclaber' post='1113797' date='Feb 3 2011, 01:07 PM']the difference between 400W and 900W is not terribly large, once you figure in power compression it's less than 3dB. [b]Those extra few dB can make the difference between being slightly lost in the mix and sitting just right[/b] but it isn't a substantial increase at all.[/quote] This is an important point that often gets lost when people are talking about doubling wattage or similar. The whole '3dB being the lower limit of detection for changes in loudness' only really applies when you're talking about a sound in isolation - it makes a far more noticeable difference in clarity when comparing multiple sounds together. Playing around with multichannel recording mixes I've found even 0.5dB in the right place can make a difference in a decent monitoring environment, though admittedly playing live that kind of subtlety will be lost. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alexclaber Posted February 3, 2011 Share Posted February 3, 2011 [quote name='LawrenceH' post='1114096' date='Feb 3 2011, 04:28 PM']This is an important point that often gets lost when people are talking about doubling wattage or similar. The whole '3dB being the lower limit of detection for changes in loudness' only really applies when you're talking about a sound in isolation - it makes a far more noticeable difference in clarity when comparing multiple sounds together. Playing around with multichannel recording mixes I've found even 0.5dB in the right place can make a difference in a decent monitoring environment, though admittedly playing live that kind of subtlety will be lost.[/quote] Absolutely! And I've heard that "3dB being the smallest detectable change" quote a lot and, frankly, it's wrong - in most situations 1dB difference is perfectly audible. When mixing in the studio the difference when knocking 1dB off here and there from the guitar, to let the bass through in one spot and the vocals through in another can be radical! Likewise just a little tweak of the guitarist's EQ at a gig can do the same - as can changing to an amp with identical tone that can put out about 50% more real power. If the increase in power is much less than that but it's more audible than before then the improvement is due to a change in tone. An interesting point to bear in mind is that if you practise at home through your gig rig, you're likely to be putting out 60-80dB, which from ~100Hz upwards is going to equate to somewhere around 0.00025-0.025W with a small-ish bass cab (you'll need to turn up the lower lows and thus demand more power due to your ears' deficiencies but still less than 1W will be required). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Musicman20 Posted February 3, 2011 Author Share Posted February 3, 2011 It's worth mentioning that although this will have lots of power, Genz watts are never upto the same level as many expect. I know these new amps are meant to have more ummph than the older Shuttles, but if there was a 900watt Mesa, the Mesa would bury it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stingrayPete1977 Posted February 3, 2011 Share Posted February 3, 2011 (edited) [quote name='lemmywinks' date='Feb 3 2011, 12:40 PM' post='1113756'] Well it means you can put the head in a laptop bag and stick it over your shoulder rather than carrying it. Compare it to a big old Ampeg in a flightcase which is a two hand carry - so it'll save you a trip. My Schroeder is a one hand carry and it does big gigs on it's own with a 500w amp, loads of people gig with a single compact etc. Imagine - bass in gigbag, head in laptop bag, leads in shoulder bag, one lightweight cab (2x12 etc.) in each hand - one trip from car to stage and you've got a loud as hell rig! [/quote name='lemmywinks' date='Feb 3 2011, 04:20 PM' post='1114075'] This is me but fwiw JT the Genz 2x12T has wheels on the back! Edited February 3, 2011 by stingrayPete1977 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lemmywinks Posted February 3, 2011 Share Posted February 3, 2011 [quote name='JTUK' post='1113782' date='Feb 3 2011, 12:56 PM']Many people want an easy carry and that is understandable but 900watts and two cabs is getting away from a single carry esp as the main reason people want this is to help their backs. Loading up like you say with a cab in each hand adds up to quite a strain so the people might be able to do it but it puts them into the position they wanted to get away from. I think you'll end up doing light carries and often rather than a full load up. And 900watts on a gig just doesn't make sense. You need to playing stages for that and then you'd never go on stage with most of the lightweight gear here anyway... and you'll have hired help most times. I am not set up to do stages with my gear but I have 400watts and any gig worth doing that needs louder than that will have decent foldback. If I toured, I'd have 750 and 2 castored cabs. Of course, you don't have to use all on tap... but, really..900watts..!!![/quote] But there's compact and light cabs that are comfortable to carry like that - i could quite easily carry a pair of Schroeder 1212l cabs like that for instance. I actually agree about 900w being a bit of overkill but hey, it's headroom - as bass players we love headroom! I get on fine with the LMII/1212r rig down there \/ but extra power is always handy. I imagine it would be a great match for cabs which need a lot of juice too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ghost_Bass Posted February 4, 2011 Share Posted February 4, 2011 [quote name='Musicman20' post='1114458' date='Feb 3 2011, 08:29 PM']It's worth mentioning that although this will have lots of power, Genz watts are never upto the same level as many expect. I know these new amps are meant to have more ummph than the older Shuttles, but if there was a 900watt Mesa, the Mesa would bury it.[/quote] I was more thinking in a AH-1000 Trace! No need for e demolition crew! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Musicman20 Posted February 4, 2011 Author Share Posted February 4, 2011 [quote name='Ghost_Bass' post='1114796' date='Feb 4 2011, 12:59 AM']I was more thinking in a AH-1000 Trace! No need for e demolition crew! [/quote] Exactly! Trace watts are what I'm used to. I know these little Streamliners will be great but their wattage ratings are bizarre. Not that I'd need 900w anyway, and I can't understand anyone pumping 500 @ 8 ohms into a single 1x12. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JTUK Posted February 4, 2011 Share Posted February 4, 2011 [quote name='Musicman20' post='1114977' date='Feb 4 2011, 09:49 AM']Exactly! Trace watts are what I'm used to. I know these little Streamliners will be great but their wattage ratings are bizarre. Not that I'd need 900w anyway, and I can't understand anyone pumping 500 @ 8 ohms into a single 1x12.[/quote] If it was a good 500 watts then the 12" would jump...or it was a bloodsucking cab which I would think would be lacking in tone. There is no new physics here, no new laws invented, IMO. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alexclaber Posted February 4, 2011 Share Posted February 4, 2011 [quote name='JTUK' post='1115021' date='Feb 4 2011, 10:32 AM']If it was a good 500 watts then the 12" would jump...or it was a bloodsucking cab which I would think would be lacking in tone. There is no new physics here, no new laws invented, IMO.[/quote] You don't have to invent new laws or circumvent physics for a single 12" to handle 500W. Not only are there plenty of high-end PA 12"s that can handle 500W, there are four 1x12" bass cabs on the market which can quantifiably handle 500W amplifiers without problem and whose tone is greatly appreciated by those that own them. Obviously all those bassists could be deluded... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Musicman20 Posted February 4, 2011 Author Share Posted February 4, 2011 [quote name='JTUK' post='1115021' date='Feb 4 2011, 10:32 AM']If it was a good 500 watts then the 12" would jump...or it was a bloodsucking cab which I would think would be lacking in tone. There is no new physics here, no new laws invented, IMO.[/quote] Agreed. The speakers might be a higher spec but if it really is 500w you are pushing it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alexclaber Posted February 4, 2011 Share Posted February 4, 2011 To add some perspective to this, in 1969 the Ampeg SVT was launched and it required two 8x10" cabs to handle its 300W output. Before that appeared we were putting 200W into a two 4x12"s with the biggest Marshall bass rigs. And valve watts or s/s watts put the same demand on the drivers, even though the former sound louder. Over the passing decades amplifer power has continued to rise as has the amount of power bassists typically use with a cab of any given configuration. By 2000 plenty of bassists were happy matching up a 300W amplifer with a 1x12". Why is it then such a crazy suggestion to put 500W into a 1x12" eleven years later? A decade ago it was unheard of to get a 150mph family saloon that could exceed 40mpg in normal use. It's called progress. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ghost_Bass Posted February 4, 2011 Share Posted February 4, 2011 I'm putting my 9.0 through the GB12"er! It can take the punch and doesn't complaint. I'm not crazy to try it maxed out but i haven't yet had the need to increase my volume to a point the cab would be farting and i know i stil have a very large margin - i have my volume set below 12 o'clock and the cab can take it easily up to 3 o'clock, the max i've tried. I'm quite happy with this setup, if i'm ever going to need more power i'll be getting a second 1x12" or a 2x12"@4ohm to be used on it's own. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lemmywinks Posted February 4, 2011 Share Posted February 4, 2011 [quote name='alexclaber' post='1115143' date='Feb 4 2011, 12:31 PM']there are four 1x12" bass cabs on the market which can quantifiably handle 500W amplifiers without problem and whose tone is greatly appreciated by those that own them.[/quote] Which ones, if you don't mind me asking? Not being funny, i'm genuinely interested as i want one! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Musicman20 Posted February 4, 2011 Author Share Posted February 4, 2011 I just don't see the point. More volume? Get more speakers. I like to be careful so Id never push an expensive 1x12 with masses if power. My Orange would be more power for most large bands. Through a 1x12? No. 2x12? Getting there. 4x12? Monster volume. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ghost_Bass Posted February 4, 2011 Share Posted February 4, 2011 [quote name='lemmywinks' post='1115254' date='Feb 4 2011, 01:39 PM']Which ones, if you don't mind me asking? Not being funny, i'm genuinely interested as i want one![/quote] Without googling i believe they might be from Barefaced, Markbass, Acugroove and probably Shroeder... i would also like to know wich ones is Alex refering to and their impedance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alexclaber Posted February 4, 2011 Share Posted February 4, 2011 [quote name='lemmywinks' post='1115254' date='Feb 4 2011, 01:39 PM']Which ones, if you don't mind me asking? Not being funny, i'm genuinely interested as i want one![/quote] The new Acme Low-B112, the new AudioKinesis TC112, the new Barefaced Big Baby and the barely any older Barefaced Midget. Notice a theme? There may be others too! [quote name='Musicman20' post='1115280' date='Feb 4 2011, 01:53 PM']I just don't see the point. More volume? Get more speakers. I like to be careful so Id never push an expensive 1x12 with masses if power.[/quote] The point of all the examples is to allow you to achieve your preferred tone and loudness with a smaller cab without it dying mid-gig. All the examples have different design goals and different sounds but all can handle big power if you need every last dB SPL. And there's nothing stopping you using more than one of these cabs. Comparing this approach to using a large traditional stack powered by a valve head is almost literally comparing apples and Oranges! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lemmywinks Posted February 4, 2011 Share Posted February 4, 2011 [quote name='alexclaber' post='1115304' date='Feb 4 2011, 02:10 PM']The new Acme Low-B112, the new AudioKinesis TC112, the new Barefaced Big Baby and the barely any older Barefaced Midget. Notice a theme? There may be others too![/quote] Cheers Alex! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alexclaber Posted February 4, 2011 Share Posted February 4, 2011 [quote name='lemmywinks' post='1115326' date='Feb 4 2011, 02:22 PM']Cheers Alex![/quote] No problem! I'm not posting because I want to sell cabs, they sell themselves, but this 'flat earth society' is just silly. Go back 20 years and I guarantee the same comments were being made about 300W+ amps. And now what's the norm? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lemmywinks Posted February 4, 2011 Share Posted February 4, 2011 [quote name='alexclaber' post='1115336' date='Feb 4 2011, 02:29 PM']No problem! I'm not posting because I want to sell cabs, they sell themselves, but this 'flat earth society' is just silly. Go back 20 years and I guarantee the same comments were being made about 300W+ amps. And now what's the norm?[/quote] Totally understand, my days of huffing huge, heavy bass cabs and PA are long gone. My back is very appreciative of modern speaker and cab design! I always find it amusing that PA gear is basically at the forefront of speaker design and that's what we hear when we go to see a band, yet people are still hung up on buying 8x10 cabs because they see them on stage despite the fact that it's basically a monitor. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Musicman20 Posted February 4, 2011 Author Share Posted February 4, 2011 I give up! I didn't intend another 'right/wrong' discussion, and yet again it's happened when the topic is about 900w micros, the Genz in particular. I still wouldn't push all that power through one cab. Believe me, I see the need for smaller / lighter cabs, but if I had a 900w amp, I'd see no point in a tiny cab with one high end speaker. The days of 8x10s aren't that relevant...the 8x10 design is perfect for certain bands. I couldn't handle it without a roadie though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JTUK Posted February 5, 2011 Share Posted February 5, 2011 Anybody want to print up a website with these figures for 500w 12" speakers. Its late and I can't find one.. Are they rated RMS at 500..or can just handle 500w amps which is not the same thing to me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lemmywinks Posted February 5, 2011 Share Posted February 5, 2011 [quote name='JTUK' post='1116103' date='Feb 5 2011, 01:03 AM']Anybody want to print up a website with these figures for 500w 12" speakers. Its late and I can't find one.. Are they rated RMS at 500..or can just handle 500w amps which is not the same thing to me.[/quote] As Alex said "there are four 1x12" bass cabs on the market which can quantifiably handle 500W amplifiers without problem" i assume he meant the latter. Last time i looked on the Barefaced site the cabs were rated in that way, eg 'cab X is designed to be used with 300w-500w amps' etc. A practical way of doing things i think, might have changed it now though i've not been on it in a while. Prob for the best as i can't afford a cab at the moment! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LawrenceH Posted February 5, 2011 Share Posted February 5, 2011 [quote name='JTUK' post='1116103' date='Feb 5 2011, 01:03 AM']Anybody want to print up a website with these figures for 500w 12" speakers. Its late and I can't find one.. Are they rated RMS at 500..or can just handle 500w amps which is not the same thing to me.[/quote] In terms of drivers, Em kappalite 3012LF handles 450w RMS, I'm assuming that's what Alex uses in the Big Baby. Even the 3012HO will take 400 RMS. You'd never get these things to burn out with a 500 watt amp run clean, unless the cab design compromised the cooling. Though driving them hard would presumably see power compression taking its toll on output. The B&C 12NW76 will take the full 500 watts rms, and they even have a couple of 12" drivers that will handle 1000(!) though they'd definitely have to be used with a mid-range unit unless you wanted a pretty dubby sound. Pretty sure other manufacturers like Beyma will have similar models. As has been pointed out umpteen times, excursion is a more typical watts-limiting factor and all these speakers have bags of it. They just have to be put in the right cab with a big enough port area. For a high power mini-rig you could use 2 Markbass NY604s, they'll soak up 1200w RMS. A pair is an easy enough lift! So actually the Genz unit is slightly underpowered Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flanker Posted February 5, 2011 Share Posted February 5, 2011 BassDirect is a dealer for Vanderkley cabs ,I tried some 112s out last week when I was there. Great sounding high quality cabs ,one of the 112 models is rated at 600w. Very nice gear. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JTUK Posted February 5, 2011 Share Posted February 5, 2011 [quote name='alexclaber' post='1115336' date='Feb 4 2011, 02:29 PM']No problem! I'm not posting because I want to sell cabs, they sell themselves,.....[/quote] Actually, I'd say that is the exact reason you post here....you run a forum FCS...!! I personally dislike this type of pimping on forums but they aren't my house rules so....???? Of course, technology will improve and ratings incease...I just like to see main players use these in the market. I am sure it will come ... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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