Mrbigstuff

[quote name='thunderbird13' timestamp='1330016345' post='1551514'] This willl probably get lost in the "Silddx Onslaught" but it is an interesting point which has caused me much frustration - what is it a really good player can play something stupidly simple like 8th notes on the 5th fret but it sounds so much better than me playing exactly the same thing. I looked at technique ( which contributes t it ) but TBH my technique is quite othodox. Then it hit me someone like Steve ( who I've also had lessons with ) is playing from inside him , not in some mystical sense but its just more confident and self assured than someone like me. Just as in the same way as me speaking in front of a crowd is going to sound better if I sound conficent rather than speak in a thin wobbly voice [/quote] actually i didn't consider confidence, good point. I think this changes a lot of things. But it is easier to be confident when you know you have the knowhow on how to make sure you can cover up mistakes or turn mistakes into something new. I believe having really strong theory can help in those situations as you know musically when its a good time to come back in and how you can make it sound cool.

[quote name='silddx' timestamp='1330015709' post='1551504'] Interesting. How do you approach writing bass lines or music? If your bandleader came to a rehearsal with a new song, how would you create a bass line for it? [/quote] It really depends on the music. I normally start by listening to a drum loop or pattern then get some rhythmic ideas form that. If thats not available then i will create something that will fit the genre the band leader is aiming to create. For example a lot of female songwriters i work with write a ballad with just piano and vocals. Then they say "i want it funkier." So i add rhythms i find interesting (i believe these are a combination of ideas my brain has retained from listening/ playing to music and things in everyday life). Harmonically usually from chord tones and scale. I get idea's on how to use them effectively be analysing the content that other players have played and just play what fits the chords and melody. I guess i take a very scientific view to music and I'm the same way in life in general.

[quote name='Wil' timestamp='1330014014' post='1551461'] It's all about emotion. Music done right moves people, and technical correctness doesnt necessarily equal a moving performance, it's all down to the note choice and feel of the musician playing the part and how they react to what they hear. You can approach music from a purely technical aspect, sure, but if you don't feel emotionally affected by what you play first and foremost then I doubt your audience will either. [/quote] [quote name='silddx' timestamp='1330014345' post='1551466'] How do you know what you are saying through your music then? How do you enjoy music? Do you get any emotional reaction to music, or do you simply analyse it? How do you discern whether a performance is good or bad or meaningful? [/quote] In answer to both. When i watch a performance i am watching the body language and listening for articulation and dynamics. The combination of these 3 things is what i think expresses musicality and what i see as the difference between a good performer and someone who's not quite there yet. I work on all 3 of these so i can put across what i guess can be described as a simulation of emotion. Say i'm playing a song that was written about pain; despite the fact i am loving the performance i can still get the idea of pain across using the combination of the 3 things suggested before. Same if i'm really not enjoying the gig i will play and have the body language to suggest i am. It's all fake but importantly its consistent.

[quote name='Wil' timestamp='1330008166' post='1551327'] Who says playing with soul negates any theoretical or technical knowledge? [/quote] thats just the impression i got from siddx's points [quote name='silddx' timestamp='1330008435' post='1551333'] I think you labour under the misapprehension that Beyonce's songs come from jams or something. They are very carefully crafted and refined before anyone gets near a studio. Also, I don't want to be a session musician, I like being in bands. The bands I'm in are quite demanding, especially the sitarist. I have to compose and improvise meaningful guitar pieces, in complex time signatures like 13/4, often requiring me to stick strictly to something like phrygian with no non-diatonic passing notes or chords, often with many structural rules and requirements she imposes from Indian classical music, as the piece progresses. But I approach it from what I feel in my heart, not from theory, I don't know much theory, or the notes on the fingerboard. It's not easy, but it is immensly rewarding and humbling when the magic happens on stage, or in the studio. [/quote] i only chose beyonce because its a big name and they would be a lot of pressure to get it right. And there are still records by artists such as beyonce that are written by musicians jamming stuff out. I play for a new indie label and to start off we played what was written but we then found if we jam a song with the band and then the mc or vocalist can freestyle over the top and get some ideas. Interestingly i watch a documentary on Guy Chambers and Mark Ronson collaborating to write an artist a new song. They did via jamming. Also bruno mars was in a group of musicians that wrote Cee Lo Greens album. At the end of the day all that matters is that you get the results for what you need. I'm just saying imo one day that will let you down if you didn't have some theory. Which you seem to have anyway...... I stand by my belief that "music from the heart is hippy bollocks" and your not going to change that. End of

[quote name='silddx' timestamp='1330006192' post='1551277'] Where on earth do you get this from? [/quote] edited to say i wasn't around, TYPO please forgive me. I've read the Ann Harrison music business book, Bobby Owswinski music business book, i have many great and experienced lecturers, and have had lots of business orientated guest lectures from people who have retired from working for record labels or who still do. It's something i have great interest in and this is what i have been told from them. Sorry if i believe their opinions over someone i don't know on a bass forum,

[quote name='silddx' timestamp='1330006138' post='1551274'] I turn up and play what I've been told to play, and do it with style, feeling and panache, in one take. Did I really answer such a ridiculous question? [/quote] what if they want some funk thing in A minor? If you don't have any stylistic awareness then how are going to know that they want something most likely 8th or 16th note based and probably using A dorian and chromatics? Your making it sound like you think you don't need to know because you've got something in your soul that makes you a good player.

[quote name='dlloyd' timestamp='1330004449' post='1551221'] They never did take risks. [/quote] I must admit i wasn't around then and my only reference to what it was like is from the experiences of those who have taught me and from what i've read in books and online articles. What they've all seemed to say is that the record labels spent more money on developing artists whereas these days they don't want to do that so the only sign ready made products. And going back to hippy bollocks. What happens when your inspiration (from the soul) runs out but you've been booked into the studio for beyonce's latest record and you only have 3 takes to record it?

[quote name='silddx' timestamp='1330003265' post='1551164'] Not really, it's always been very hard. Bands are at the mercy of markets and lowest common denominators of public acceptance. However, the public and musicians have far more power now due to recent communications technology advances. Unfortunately money is still the key to breaking through from small time success to great success, bands need marketing budget and infrastructure, this is where I think the record companies will find their new niche. [/quote] major record companies aren't taking risks with bands like they used to. To get with a major record label as a band you need to have already achieved a good level of success. Ed Sheeran being a good example. [quote name='silddx' timestamp='1330003491' post='1551177'] So what you've just written is a combination of things you've read previously and things you know and understand on your keyboard? Hippy bollocks? You have no ideas of your own you want to express through your instrument? You have no message for the people? You have no soapbox to stand on? Nothing to say at all? Just a combination of external influences and some fretboard skills. Pity you. [/quote] You say pity me but i enjoy what i do and thats enough for me

[quote name='risingson' timestamp='1330002573' post='1551136'] No, they probably couldn't. And the reason is that good music transcends good technique and good playing. Technique is not synonymous with musicianship, it's not measurable by the amount of time you've put into learning how to play with impeccable timing and with good theoretical technique. That's what everyone who champions the 'pros' and rubbishes the likes of smaller time bass players don't understand. I went to music school too, but they never taught me this, everyone was just too occupied with technique and theory. I just had to learn it for myself. [/quote] I'm saying you need a combination of technique, theory and musicianship to be as good as the kids i saw playing last night.

[quote name='RhysP' timestamp='1329999952' post='1551054'] I am. I'm doing quite a lucrative one this afternoon actually. Never had a lesson, never learnt any theory, and certainly never paid "ridiculous amounts of money" to be told I have to sound like everyone else on the converyor belt. [/quote] Firstly congrats. Secondly, i can't comment on you or how you play because i don't know you. Most guys who do a lot of top sessions such as laurence cottle, know lots of theory. And to be at his level of expertise when I'm 50 is something i aspire to. [quote name='silddx' timestamp='1330000190' post='1551062'] You have completely missed the point. I can play Chris Squire's lines, you can, but you or I could NOT have created them. If you have no musical ideas, or only naive ones, in your soul, it doesn't matter how well you can play does it? You should stop judging musicians on their psychomotor skills and get the the heart of the art. [/quote] i think musical ideas are a combination of things you've listened to previously and things you know and understand on your freeboard. I definitely don't believe music comes from the soul! Just sounds like hippy bollocks

[quote name='silddx' timestamp='1329999941' post='1551052'] In terms of what? Chris Squire can WRITE. Janek Gwizdala or Richard Bona are not anywhere near up there with the likes of Chris squire in terms of being part of a successful writing team, their bank balances may reflect this You simply cannot compare a session musician with a band member. Successful bands tend to be able to communicate feelings and philosophies and observations lyrically and musically in a way a wider audience can relate to. Most session musicians' attempts I've heard have been failures. Session musicians are experts in operating their machines with the requisite level of feel to fulfil someone else's vision in as short a time as possible. Band musicians are very different beasts. [/quote] i agree completely. Trouble is bands are finding it harder and harder to get sustained success in todays industry

[quote name='risingson' timestamp='1329999257' post='1551030'] Roles reversed, I don't believe either bassist you've just mentioned could do Chris Squire's job in Yes either, or certainly no better. In the kindest possible way, I think you have a slightly naive view in this respect. [/quote] well they could. I've seen Janek play 3 times and he can definitely cover that material and enjoy it. I had a lesson with steve lawson who IMO is a great virtuoso of the electric bass. i was amazed with how strong he sounded when playing simple lines, much cleaner and clinical than the older guys did. He can definitely play that stuff but chooses not to.

[quote name='4000' timestamp='1329997332' post='1550981'] First point; none of those issues are anywhere near as important as being able to play the right thing for the song. Someone who know his theory back to front and can play at the speed of light in perfect time is still incompetent if they can't play what the song requires, or something that takes the song to the next level. You don't need any real theory at all to be an excellent bass player in most genres, although it certainly isn't necessarily a hindrance and can help a great deal. If you think you do need all that then your emphasis is in the wrong area. It's quite possible to come up with a glorious line without really knowing how you did it or what the theory behind it is. Of course some people need the theory before they can do that, but others don't. By your argument Jeff Berlin (for example) would be one of the best bassists ever in any band situation, in any situation, when quite plainly he wouldn't be (despite what he may think!). Also FWIW, in a lot of bands the band leader / songwriter etc shows the bassist what to play, although the bassist may then get chance to expand on it. I think that's something you'll maybe need to get used to. In a music school it's likely that many of the other bassists you meet will want to be the next Jaco, but in the real world that's not necessarily the case. Two very different environments. Sometimes the time is never right. Learning that can be very difficult; I'm still trying. [/quote] Theres a lot of presumptions your making by my posts. To address your point of playing whats right for the song. I am 100% behind that point. However, there are many many many songs out there. Each song requires something different, and a good player will have the skills to play whats necessary for the part. In some band situation for example, Jeff Berlin's playing might be a perfect. Also the guys you play who you think are keeping it simple, doing big arena tours and stuff can play some incredible stuff that requires huge knowledge of theory. I know this because i know and have seen the young guys in london play when they're not supporting and artist and are just jamming. You presume i'm not used to being told what to play...... If anything that is pretty much what i do all the time, i am very used to it and i am very comfortable with not changing it at all or changing it if it is agreed t can be expanded. In a music school everyone wants to reach their potential. You pay ridiculous amounts of money to learn what i takes to be a successful pro with a long career. I'm told that these are the things to learn so i learn them.

[quote name='RhysP' timestamp='1329996254' post='1550941'] That definition means that 99% of bass players, including all the ones regarded as "The Greats" are incompetent. Chris Squire would be f***ing useless playing jazz or latin music, just as the vast majority of gospel players wouldn't have the first idea what to do in an industrial metal band. Why do some people think bass players have to be masters of every genre or else they're rubbish? I never hear guitarists slagging off BB King because his two handed tapping is sh*t, or saying that Martin Taylor or John Etheridge are crap because they can't play a convincing Country solo. [/quote] This is the problem. I said wide array, not every genre! Chris squire also in my opinion is not anywhere near up there with the likes of Janek Gwizdala or Richard Bona! Not even close. But BB king isn't modern. I don't know who martin taylor or john etheridge are Imagine your a session player. Compared to the amount of sessions done in a studio when marcus miller was just starting out there are very few now (ask any top session player). Because of this if you want to make a living you have to be able to play at the very least; pop, latin, rock, jazz and funk/soul/R&B.

[quote name='skankdelvar' timestamp='1329995108' post='1550912'] By strange coincidence, I found an envelope stuffed into my letterbox this morning. It contained a transcript of some off-mike dialogue during the most recent U2 recording session. [/quote]

[quote name='4000' timestamp='1329985714' post='1550692'] ????? I guess that depends on your definition of a competent player. To me it's someone who does the job required for the music, chops or no (see Risingson's earlier post). I think you'll actually find that many truly "competent players" (using what I suspect is your definition) are quite happy to play either; go and have a chat with Marco Mendoza for one. [/quote] When i think competent i mean someone who can do everything i cant do a few things i see as a good player: Someone who knows the notes on the fretboard in real time Someone with great time feel in a wide array of genres and can stand on their own two feet when a drummer takes off with poly rhythmic ideas. Someone with great sense of harmony and knows when to super-impose, the avoid notes, improvising behind melodies without taking any power from it. There are lots of very capable rock bassists, flea being a personal favourite. However, there are many who are not! Adam Clayton being well known for not having any knowledge of improvising around chords and the edge having to show him what to play. Whereas, in gospel, jazz or latin jazz if your no good it really shows. [quote name='4000' timestamp='1329985821' post='1550695'] The first part being the issue I suspect. [/quote] I'm at a music school, have been for 3 years. [quote name='4000' timestamp='1329986380' post='1550713'] Ah, the sign of a mature musician.... [/quote] I said you naturally want to play them, the best musicians are those that wait until the time is right. All self control innit

also if you've put a lot of time and effort into learning the chops needed to be a good jazz player, you naturally want to show them off, something that is rarely done on bass in rock music.

[quote name='risingson' timestamp='1329959632' post='1550592'] Classic sweeping statement if ever there was one. I'd be interested to know what you're basing this on? [/quote] i do mean in general terms, I'm not saying that rock bassists are incompetent. But from guys i know, most would rather play the chicken than enter sandman.

there is nothing wrong! Just got back from w3 and JUST WOW! These guys are all between 17 and 25 and they have more talent than most of the old timers! I think its just that rock bores most competent players and so they move on to jazz, funk, neo soul, gospel ect.

apparently they're doing a 3 day masterclass at the ICMP thats open for the public to buy ticket to! £15 for a masterclass with these guys is pretty awesome imo

Yes thats right answer some questions and you can win loads of nice prizes including a Fodera bass and a free entry to the bass bootcamp! Great i thought, i'll sign up! Quickly read through the rules. Rule 1) This competition is open only to 50 states of the USA.

i like all music..... But i love Blur They are themselves, and i find their music really represents them and their experiences! Although they were obviously too pissed for any real stage presence tonight

[quote name='shizznit' timestamp='1329820990' post='1547748'] I miss mine too, but that was taken away from me rather than passing it on! The MTD was the replacement. I only had the Overwater for about a year before it was stolen, so I didn't really get that attached to it. [/quote] Nearly sold my overwater.... VERY happy i didn't! But i do regret selling my musicman stingray because it had sentimental values. But at the end of the day it didn't do the job as well as my tokai jazz which was a 1/4 of the price!

[quote name='RhysP' timestamp='1329780972' post='1547427'] Does the winner also have to write one of those tedious monthly bass student diaries that they have in the UK Bass magazine? [/quote] i thought the first guy that did it was good. Then they just got worse and worse. I always thought i would have loved the opportunity to do that, as it means you've already got experience in journalism making it easier to get jobs reviewing basses. And your endorsed by EBMM!!!!!!!!!

[quote name='deksawyer' timestamp='1329734189' post='1546399'] Well, I'm not going to post any more than this: D. [/quote] kind of like you telling us your wifes a supermodel and then only showing a picture of her birthmark. I don't think that would have sold many copies of playboy