LawrenceH

[quote name='Phil Starr' post='826377' date='May 3 2010, 12:39 PM']I wondered if anyone would pick this up. The alternatives are to measure the phsical dimensions of gap and coil os Celestion do or to measure the excursion at a set level of distortion, usually 10% which is where it starts to be audible. How quickly the sound becomes compressed as the coil leaves the magnetic field does depend upon the relationship between coil and magnet depth as well as gap geometry. I don't care much about which method is quoted but it would be nice if everyone stuck to the same method so we can make comparisons. Using Alex's method gives Xmax of 3mm for the Celestion BN10300 by the way. I'm hoping you go for the Celestion BN Lawrence. I can't believe Celestion of all people haven't tried out their designs but it is so off the wall to make a bass speaker that has a resonance at 77.9Hz and a much higher f3 in a cab that I chickened out of trying it and went for the Fane10-275 in my latest cab. It gives a lovely tight controlled sound but won't set the world on fire without a livelier top end.[/quote] To confuse things even further, quoting directly from Beyma driver PDF: "The Xmax is calculated as: (Lvc - Hag)/2 + Hag/3.5, where Lvc is the voice coil length and Hag is the air gap height" So nearly the same formula as Alex's but will give an even more generous Xmax figure! While B&C quote an alternative figure they term Xvar (and give a good justification as to why that value is preferable). I start to wonder if Xlim divided by two might be a better rough and ready comparison. Any idea what Xlim is for the Celestions? Btw I think you're getting a bit mixed up with your model names - both the Green label neos and the Orange label start with BN, with X at the end denoting Green label and S denoting Orange. For the Orange label BN10-300S, Gap height = 8mm & Voice coil winding width = 12mm so using Alex's method you get an Xmax of 4mm or using Beyma's method you get 4.29mm. For the BN10-300X, Gap height = 8mm and Voice coil winding width = 16mm so the respective numbers are 6mm and 6.29mm. I think with the Orange label 10" units they're best off in a 2x10" configuration on top of a nice fat 15" unit. But on their own you could always tune them below their resonant frequency in a bigger box. The real issue then is how much power the particular bass playing through them actually outputs below 100Hz, so at what overall playing volume you're going to be excursion limited. After all, a bass doesn't output sine waves! I suspect from my Jazz it's going to be higher than one might at first imagine, especially when emphasising the bridge pickup. On (e.g.) a P there'll be a lot more around 80Hz, but I don't play a P! However, I just noticed the NTR10-2520D, which is similar to the E unit but with a shorter voice coil, trading Xmax (still very respectable at 6mm (Alex's method)) against sensitivity and upper end response. In WinISD it models out almost exactly the same at the bottom end as the NTR10-2520E, so of course it exceeds Xmax at a slightly lower wattage, but since it's effectively thermally limited before that'll become a real issue anyway, I reckon this is definitely worth it for the enhanced sensitivity and HF. I'm guessing the NTR will sound a lot clearer than the Green label with less distortion and less power compression, hence louder too - best of all worlds. I think that's the unit I'll use! Since I'm only looking at a 1x10" unit initially then skimping on the driver seems pointless, and it'll still come in much cheaper than an equivalent commercial cab

I've not heard the RX but I was very impressed with a Roland Cube 30 which a pro-player friend had for teaching (and actually used for small jazz gigs!). It had a solid, articulate tone that was varied in a worthwhile way by the modelling options. I was the opposite of impressed with the Ashdown Perfect 10 which I got in a deal with a bass I bought. The tone was deader and flabbier than a stuffed goose, nowhere near what you can achieve with even their budget Electric Blue range.

[quote name='Phil Starr' post='824996' date='May 1 2010, 05:37 PM']I've got reservations about the Celestion bass speakers (BL and BN) because of their restricted Xmax and the high resonant frequencies (based entirely on their specs). Stevie do you have any experience with these speakers as I am curious as to how they sound?[/quote] The Celestion Xmax figures are not comparable to (e.g.) Eminence or B&C, they are more conservative as they use a different method to arrive at the figure. They calculate Xmax the old way, which is (Voice coil winding width - gap height)/2. Alexclaber has posted figures showing that, for comparison to Eminence drivers (and presumably other manufacturers such as B&C), a more accurate calculation would be (Voice coil winding width - gap height)/2 + (Gap depth/4). This gives much more respectable numbers which I understand equate better with real-world performance. The Celestion BN10300X has a whopping Xmax of 6mm using this method, while even the Orange label series have Xmax of 4mm, directly comparable to a Deltalite II. The NTR10-2520E gives 6.75mm, making it on paper probably the best option on the market for really tight true bass from 10" drivers. The Celestion 10" units have notably lower Vas values than the Eminence Deltalite II, and combined with the high extension capabilities this means (at least for the green label and NTR) that you can put them in a smaller box and get reasonable bass, or you can put them in a big box with a low port tuning to extend the low end and they'll still be limited by thermal constraints rather than Xmax. Some B&C drivers give similar performance to the Celestions but are more money. I am hoping to do a DIY ultra-compact 1x10" build using Celestions, a bit like the one posted on here a few days ago but out of 12mm lightweight ply. I'll go with either the BN10300X or NTR10-2520E depending on funds and deciding whether I prefer the more balanced tonality of the NTR. Having said that, I do wonder how good the Orange label might sound with their extended top end - surprisingly nice, I'd bet, despite the (relatively) restricted low-end capability.

Those gold basses should look like awful tat, but for some reason they're among my favourite styled basses of all time, especially the jazzes with their bound necks. That P price has got to be worth it if it plays/sounds as good as it looks.

[quote name='The Burpster' post='817920' date='Apr 25 2010, 11:02 AM']Roland cube 30 or 100. cant go wrong really.[/quote] I agree, the Rolands to me sound very much like a 'big rig', only smaller, if that makes sense! Well voiced.

Thanks for the suggestions people - I will probably try both Rotosounds and Fat Beams in the future. I like the Hi Beams I have on my other bass, they are very musical but a little too refined for the sound I'm after on this instrument. I'm varying where I play and the pickup volumes - but in actual fact the bass I'm comparing to had an awesome neck pickup tone! And it's me playing both basses in each case, it's none of that 'it's in the fingers' business here. Amp-wise, again I've used both through the same amp and even on a little Ashdown Electric Blue it sounds magic. It had standard spacing as does my (Japanese) reissue. My desire for a 70s spacing jazz tone is separate to what I'm after here! I did wonder if through-stringing/bridge upgrade would help as mine just has the bent plate bridge, but from what I understand it makes more of a difference to the bass and sustain, rather than the mid-range. I don't care about sustain, I only need the note to last about half a second max but I want that half second or less to really punch me in the chest and grind my ears up!

[quote name='Conan' post='816046' date='Apr 23 2010, 12:04 PM']Great advice! In this price bracket you can get some genuine bargains as well as some horrific, almost unplayable wrecks! By shopping locally you can try each individual bass, as quality control at this end of the market is notoriously variable! Depending on where you are, there may even be a friendly basschatter who would come with you to check out second-hand basses in your area! If you try one and don't get on with it, walk away. Good luck![/quote] +1 on getting an experienced player along to help you choose. ESPECIALLY if going for a Squier - I very deliberately didn't recommend those as, while there are some good ones, the QC is just too variable for an inexperienced player to trust they'll get something that is problem-free without getting advice from someone who actually knows what they're doing. This is true of the Standard, Affinity, and VMJ range instruments that I've seen in shops and has always been true in the past apart from the very early Japanese ones. The CV range seem to be better but you'd be bloody lucky to get one for close to £130 secondhand. That BB414 up there looks like an absolute steal! I'm sort of glad I didn't see that til it had ended or I'd be £129 less well off

Ashdown generally use Jensen/Sica. Markbass use B&C, which IMO are very nice indeed and are excellent performers in small boxes. Barefaced use Eminence. Trace I believe used to use Celestion. Really there are good offerings from all manufacturers if you're prepared to pay enough, although I'd say Eminence are not the best option if you want a very compact cabinet, unless you like a bit of a boomy sound. It is telling though that B&C are used in a lot of high-end PA systems, that's a market which is very discerning about loudspeaker quality.

Actually that particular Celestion models excellently in WinISD ( especially if you use an adjusted Xmax for direct comparison to other manufacturers and to give a better idea of 'real world' limits). For a 30l box you can tune it very low indeed before it runs out of xmax at 200w input. I'd suggest somewhere between 50 and 55 Hz, or you could go as low as 45Hz and you'll lose a bit around 60Hz but you'll only be 10dB down at 40Hz with a nice smooth, gradual rising curve above that. I fancy one of these in 12mm poplar

[quote name='escholl' post='815012' date='Apr 22 2010, 02:40 PM']Ahh, genius. Reminds me of a 2x12...er, 12mm anyways, guitar cab that I once built... Yours is much better though, looks like a proper cab at least! I could really use something like that, if it turns out well....[/quote] I think there are a lot of people who could use an ultra-compact lightweight 1x10" box. The Deltalite II 2510 tends to get touted as the neo speaker of choice for DIY, but there are other drivers that perform better if you want a really tiny box, from both Celestion and B&C. Note that Alex Claber has rightly pointed out that Celestion use an older much more conservative method of calculating Xmax compared to Eminence. Having a quick gander at the specs, the Celestion green label 10"s will be much bassier than the Orange label, or their NTR10-2520E is an absolute monster for a little 10" neo. WinISD is quite straightforward if you understand the terminology and follow the instructions in the help file about loading driver specs, letting WinISD calculate a lot of them for you. Use the newest version of the program as it's much more versatile.

At that end of the market then I think offerings from Yamaha are excellent value - both new (RBX170) and the slightly more expensive models secondhand. They are very consistent from one instrument to another and most people find them quite ergonomic to play, which is important when you're starting off. The RBX174/274 are tonally reasonably versatile with a P/J configuration which would allow quite inexpensive worthwhile upgrades later on. Alternatively I was genuinely impressed by the pickups on a newer RBX374 - VERY solid and articulate tone if you can find one secondhand. The older Yamaha budget actives (RB370A?) were noisier and the pickups weren't as good, though they're still a nice instrument. Ibanez are also solid performers for budget instruments though they can be a little dark in character for my tastes. FWIW I started with a Yamaha RB170 which I picked up for £90 secondhand on the recommendation of others, it did me very well and was versatile enough for most styles and to allow me to decide what I wanted from my next instrument.

[quote name='Bottle' post='813780' date='Apr 21 2010, 02:06 PM']IIRC the QSC range of power amps are bridge-able down to 4Ohms (RMX range and the PLX-xx02 range) - have been looking to replace my older 'Maplin special' POS PS1000 amps for a while [url="http://www.qscaudio.com/"]QSC Audio[/url] HTH, Ian[/quote] Many amps have quoted specs for 2ohm/ch or 4ohm/bridge operation...but only a subset of these will actually take that kind of abuse long-term without dying. It puts a LOT of thermal stress on the output transistors, which in turn shortens their lifespan. Also as mentioned above they may not be able to supply the power for sustained operation except in brief (millisecond) bursts (detailed specs sometimes reveal this as for the Yamaha P series amps), often too brief to be useful for low frequency output. These problems can be more apparent with bass applications where the driver ohm rating is nominal and actually varies with frequency, dipping lower that the nominal rating on certain bass notes and therefore pulling even more current stressing the amp even harder. Some cabs will behave better than others in this respect. If the amp is a QSC it should be fine as long as you make sure it has adequate cooling. Budget amps I wouldn't risk it.

[quote name='JTUK' post='812074' date='Apr 19 2010, 11:36 PM']Not sure it is that easy to pick the specs and get that tone. Some combinations just seem to gel better than others so you just have to find that one that sings for you, IME and then beg, steal or whatever... You could do worse than talk to Aaron Armstrong about pickups and he might get you close...he could certainly tell what pickup config should do what, but I think the biggest factor is the woods and how they react together..IMV. I have a RW board that does that sound far better than my maple...and even with a lot of EQ, the maple doesn't get that close. It hasn't got that naturalness in that sound. You are going to have to reconcile yourself that that bass you have doesn't do that for you...so start saving for that new one that you'll find. Then you have to decide whether to keep what you have as they supplement each other or sell your present bass, IMV[/quote] Cheers - a shame as I love this bass, especially the unplugged tone - and that was the problem with my old Ibby, unplugged it sounded way different to the tone I was after that I felt no electronics change would sort it out (though Nordstrand Big Singles made it work a lot better and would be a straight up killer tone for some people). I kind of hoped I had the wood right and it was a matter of sorting out the electronics. I will keep an eye/ear out for the 'perfect one' and beat away at this one in the meantime!

[quote name='deaky' post='812036' date='Apr 19 2010, 10:49 PM']Yeah its a groovy looking bass. I dunno if I should wait tho and grab a Geddy Lee or get the classic instead. Would there really be any great difference in sound?[/quote] I A/B-ed a Classic 70s and a Geddy Lee. They were in a similar place tone-wise but the Geddy Lee sounded a lot duller and a bit thinner - but I think this was a setup issue, the pickup heights on the GL were well off. I much preferred the feel of the Classic Series neck though, pretty much the nicest-feeling neck I've played on a Fender.

[quote name='OutToPlayJazz' post='812014' date='Apr 19 2010, 10:34 PM']Where are you based, Lawrence? If you aren't a million miles away you could bring it over and we'll experiment with it. I was also thinking that some DR Marcus Miller Fatbeams my help as well. They're still the best strings I've ever heard on a Jazz.[/quote] Thanks, that's a really kind offer! Unfortunately I'm in Edinburgh but one day in desperation I may well take you up on that, I do have family in Lincoln/Louth which looks like it's not too far from you. I have Black Beauties on mine at the moment which are probably not the best choice for what I'm after. I believe he used Rotosounds (which I hate the feel of but would be prepared to suffer for that tone!). Even left on for months and months his strings still had a phenomenal amount of snap and grind which makes me think there was something inherent to that bass (and the similar active one that I mentioned). On my previous basses Rotosounds would sound dead within about 2 weeks, though I've not tried them on this one.

[quote name='OutToPlayJazz' post='811982' date='Apr 19 2010, 10:08 PM']As far as I know, the Fender single coils have always been equipped with alnico magnets, but I'm sure someone will know of one range or special that's the exception to this. The biggest tone changer as far as I've experienced on the Jazz is the body wood. Some of the ash bodied models really "sing" completely differently. I know that around 2000-2007 you could order an Am.Std with the ash body as an option over the usual alder. I know the exact tone you mean as well - JohnGH has a lovely Japanese 75 reissue in natural ash with "American Vintage" pickups and that one has "that" sound. Pity I didn't keep that one, really.[/quote] Thanks for the response - I think mine is the same model: natural ash, US vintage pups. It sings smoothly but it doesn't bark or honk! This magical other bass was quite a heavy instrument. Mine's not light though, and acoustically they're not a million miles away. One of the biggest things I remember though is that plugged in, you only had to dig in a little bit and it would give such incredible growl that it was almost like the tone you get with popping. Here is pic of the elusive beast in case that helps with identifying. Sadly (but wisely) my friend would never sell her! [attachment=47760:bass.JPG]

Hey all, I used to run a jam night which meant I got to hear and play a fair few different basses. My absolute favourite tone-wise was a friend's maple fretboard jazz which had a really huge, aggressive mid-range honk and snap with still a decent amount of low bass. It was passive and as far as I know was an American standard, probably late 90s, maybe very early 2000s. All original parts as far as my friend knew. I now have a Jap 75RI with maple neck and the alleged US Vintage pickups (AlNiCo?). The tone is pretty reasonable, sounds like a jazz, but the more I play it the more I realise it doesn't have anything like the huge tone of this other jazz, it is much smoother and less in-yer-face. Incidentally my second-favourite from that jam was a Fender Am Deluxe RW probably from the same period, which sounded similar (but not quite as good) and the pickups in that were definitely stock. So...can anyone with an appropriately encyclopaedic knowledge of jazz basses tell me a) what pickups were Fender loading into their basses around this period, b ) where might I get some and c) given that I have a maple board Jap jazz that sounds quite lively acoustically, is finding similar pickups to whatever was in this mysterious wonder bass going to get me that magical tone? The neck pickup in particular was huge with an incredible growling, hollow honk. N.B. I have fiddled with the setup quite a lot on my bass, I can't get close, and the character of this other bass was preserved through two very different setups (for at least a year until he had it adjusted it played like a complete dog, but still sounded immense). Ceramic pickups? Anyone who can help me achieve this tonal nirvana is an utter legend. Cheers Lawrence

[quote name='JTUK' post='811795' date='Apr 19 2010, 08:17 PM']As far as I know... Aguilar don't feature a NEO range and Berg are supposed to have their own designs of NEO..as all others were deemed inferior. Maybe that is true, maybe it is BS... but even retailers seem to make the distinction between Ceramic and NEO in the Berg range and say the HT series, for example, have a better low end over the AE. I like the 10's in Markbass cabs, although I am more familiar with the 102 combo. Not interested in 15"s in general so could give any makers range a miss. I am a convert of 12's though.[/quote] I /think/ the Berg neos are Eminence - and that probably means that like other OEM drivers they're based on a standard Eminence chassis design with the voice coil/driver/surround tweaked to Berg specs. But as far as I understand it a gain in one area means a loss somewhere else, so it depends what you're after. Looking at specs I'd bet a sackful that the AE 12 drivers are modified Eminence Deltalites. FWIW I'd prefer the standard Kappalites used in the Barefaced range, they have a significantly beefier magnet. Aguilar ceramics are almost definitely Eminence. My guess is that they're loaded into 'too small' cabs to boost the sensitivity in the high-bass 'power' region and that's why I don't like them. The B&Cs in general seem better optimised for true bass in small box applications and that agrees with what my ears tell me, though I'm sure the smallest Markbass cabs are pushing this to the limit.

[quote name='Musicman20' post='811434' date='Apr 19 2010, 03:30 PM']I went to Soundslive today and they have some new Markbass combos in. Ive seen them 'in the flesh' now and I must admit, the quality of build is stunning. I would definitely consider a new Markbass combo, albeit it one of the small 112s I think.[/quote] I have been very impressed with their small combos. I don't really get why some people are so negative about the Markbass cabs - those B&C drivers are as good as any in the world, certainly they more than hold their own against apparently similar-spec'ed but cheaper offerings from Eminence which seem to be used by several other manufacturers (possibly Bergantino and Aguilar included?). Perhaps the smallest cabs are a little too small to give true deep low-end and instead give a high bass/low mid 'bump'? I'd have thought the slightly larger cabs per given driver size would sort that out though, and that is also something that I've noticed to be much more apparent on the Aguilar cabs I've heard - too much between 100 and 200 for my taste.

As others have said, within certain limits it's all about the speakers. There's not much difference in volume between 150 and 250 watts, through the same cabinet - the main practical benefit is a little more clean headroom for transients. I did pub gigs quite happily with an Ashdown Electric Blue 150 watt 1x12" (old UK version, better than the current Chinese one). The driver is a Sica/Jensen unit I think, and is quite sensitive at the bottom end compared to a lot of small combos I've tried, although it lacks upper-midrange. I guess this post isn't actually very helpful, but I think what I'm trying to say is don't worry about watts and concentrate on perceived volume and bottom end. Larger cabs with more speakers in will in general be louder watt-for-watt, and modern speaker drivers are more capable than older ones at going lower, louder. How big can you afford this rig to be and what type of music will you be playing?

The tecamp combos have a little leg that clips to the back when not in use, that lets you angle the amp back a very useful amount. Alternatively, for my trusty little Electric Blue I bought something very similar to one of these: [url="http://www.soundslive.co.uk/product.asp?id=5498"]http://www.soundslive.co.uk/product.asp?id=5498[/url] Folds away much smaller and is much lighter than typical Quiklok amp stands, and the amp is still close to the floor (helps with LF coupling). Plus, unlike a tilt back combo, it has multiple tilt positions which is handy for standing different distances from your amp e.g. on different sized stages. Also it has a top that'll accept a mic boom arm so it can double as a space-saving mic stand for the combo. I've found it a very useful piece of kit for both bass gigs and when doing sound for bands with guitar combos - really gets it in their ears and they can often turn down so you have a more controlled FoH sound.

I don't think blaming someone's technique is very helpful when knocking the pole pieces clearly has next to no effect on other decent jazz basses (my Jap 75 at least, as I just tried). Technique or not, there's something wrong with the instrument. Thanks to the OP for a helpful review of the cheap elements of these basses - there is a lot of love here for them but I can't help thinking people are being almost defensive about them, any shortcomings being put down to budget as if they're amazing value. You can buy an Ibanez with a 5-piece neck for £230 for goodness' sake! And I've not come across an Ibby or Yamaha with poor QC in the last decade at least. Of course, everyone wants 'that' Fender sound and look now but when you think purely in terms of the components and manufacturing techniques involved, Fenders are not good value and these Squiers are more of an overdue catch-up with other instruments at the lower end of the market. I'm not disputing that they're well worth the money if you want that sound (which I do, oh yes).

[quote name='BassBod' post='799579' date='Apr 8 2010, 10:31 AM']Nice very British basses...but people try to make ££ on the JPJ assosciation. Buy them for what they are, not who plays them[/quote] His brother makes wonderful acoustics...Personally I can't stand the guitars he makes for Muse but a friend has a wonderful custom Tele with tone to die for, I'd assume his basses are of a very high quality as well.

Lots of people will be recommending the Squier CV. But I was most impressed with the Mexican Classic 70s instrument I tried, lovely finishing, nice sounding pickups, played beautifully.

[quote name='pete.young' post='787760' date='Mar 27 2010, 12:10 PM']And the sergeant came along and said: Ooooh! Snap!! [url="http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/SGC-Nanyo-Bass-Collection_W0QQitemZ260575178215QQcmdZViewItemQQptZUK_Musical_Instruments_Guitars_CV?hash=item3cab7dade7"]http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/SGC-Nanyo-Bass-Colle...=item3cab7dade7[/url][/quote] That's bloody gorgeous wood - 3pc neck too as far as I can tell. Missing the truss rod cover. Looks like a 320, but a damn nice one. If I had a spare 300 squid I'd bite...but that might be because I'm pining for my 330, which is in storage