LawrenceH

It's not ideal to mix speakers, but often when money's an issue it's about availability and working with what you already have. As such I think it's good to put a little perspective in there - the sky won't fall down if you do it! Mixing cabs is only unpredictable to a point, probably less than theory might predict given that most cabs, sealed units aside, will have fairly similar driver characteristics and reflex tunings. Don't forget that room modes and speaker placement effects will in many cases dwarf those of the cabs. If you stack 10" drivers, consider the effect of moving back and forth in front of them - chaging the incident angle will unavoidably cause changing midrange phase cancellations and reinforcements as the output from the two drivers combines at your ear. A single larger driver doesn't show this, but OTOH will have reduced mid/high dispersion in the perpendicular plane unless crossed over to a smaller unit. There's one major advantage to 15" drivers that's been lost in all this - assuming similar driver quality then they can perform in a similar range to three 10" drivers, but costing and weighing significantly less. It's all about choosing the best compromise for your situation.

[quote name='alexclaber' timestamp='1371152817' post='2110668'] You're still not understanding what I'm trying to say! I'm not talking about any of those drivers, I've been talking about my search to find a motor that allows me to design a driver based around that magnet and pole pieces that does what I want. This is nothing to do with different brands, companies or factories, it's about specific castings and machined parts which have a certain geometry. [/quote] And you are failing to understand me! Brand is of course irrelevant, I was just being flippant based on the near universal bashing of anything non-Eminence that until recently used to be the norm on bass sites, I'm surprised you don't remember (especially given how Barefaced has been both beneficiary and victim of flavour-of-the-month-brand-itis). But how a driver's engineered to a /chosen/ set of criteria is what matters, the criteria in terms of design goal NOT method in which they're achieved, being partly subjective eg if I have my QSC amps then I don't give a monkeys if the speaker sensitivity is relatively low, I can still get phenomenally loud and deep out of a small box, IF the driver will take the watts without just using them to fry eggs. There are plenty of subwoofer drivers with better-tamed peaks than the 30xx series, but the mid response doesn't matter that much given that nearly every 12" 2-way is already rather compromised by the HF, may as well add a small mid ...hence your original Big One and Big Baby, surely? Watts are silly cheap and light nowadays. On the other hand if you want a more traditional sound then the true LF capability becomes far less of an issue anyway, may as well optimise for sensitivity, midrange distortion and weight. In reality several of the drivers I own already seem to offer an excellent balance between the two approaches, and these are older generation PA drivers that are surely superseded now Really I was only gently teasing you whilst you skimmed close to the line of self-promotion, as I'm fairly sure I'd agree with your design criteria and it's great to hear from someone who has access to the driver manufacturers where the real clever stuff happens - but I am often struck by the diversity of requirements people have from their gear and the way they get it to do what they want, which I think is too often overlooked. I am intrigued if you are having much custom tooling though, I'd have thought that was rather cost-prohibitive no?

[quote name='alexclaber' timestamp='1371144087' post='2110503'] "Best balance of compromises for the job in hand" [/quote] Sigh And that balance will be different for everyone, even within the relatively small world of bass guitar, thanks to the wide range of amps, basses and ears out there! There's no shame in admitting to a little subjectivity the objectivity comes in when you've decided what the criteria for judgement are. But I look forward to seeing and hopefully hearing what you've come up with, I'm sure it'll be a worthwhile step up. (In the meantime I will carry on quite happily with my non-Eminence drivers for bass guitar, while the Eminence ones sit on the shelf waiting for a new use, and shockingly I shall do so despite the knowledge that they have been judged to be objectively inferior and my taste is evidently defective).

Sorry to sound negative, but I can't imagine that a custom cab from a guitar speaker manufacturer is going to match let alone beat what you could buy for that money from a decent bass cab manufacturer if you do your market research. They'll just buy an off-the-shelf driver and bung it in a nice-looking box at huge markup. Box requirements for bass versus guitar are significantly different, as Bill says.

[quote name='alexclaber' timestamp='1371137282' post='2110369'] Our target parameters/sound are simply to make the best bass instrument speaker it's possible to make! That's a different beast to the best PA top or subwoofer. [/quote] You do like a bit of the salesspeak nowadays Alex 'Best' doesn't mean much unless you set other rather more specific parameters! Everything's a compromise

I can't see it being worthwhile unless you get the saving from doing the cabs yourself, tbh - I'd say get a Big Baby unless you share Molan's objection to the cosmetics.

[quote name='alexclaber' timestamp='1371129939' post='2110182'] The main issue I've had with the OEM versions we've tried with various European manufacturers is that most of the high-end drivers are very strongly split into PA main and subwoofer use, the former having lower moving mass but being incapable of achieving high excursion (so they're sensitive but can't do big high SPL lows) whilst the latter have very high moving mass (and thus low broadband sensitivity and peaky midrange response) and on the whole they tend to have very low Qts. We've tried all manner of things with different moving parts but kept running into the same problems. [/quote] That's interesting, thanks - I'm surprised it's such a deal-breaker, given that the Eminence drivers are not immune from these problems either, but I can understand you have your target parameters/sound. I'm looking forward to trying the 520 series Faitals myself to see how they stack up. I'll be using them for compact subwoofer duty (even though it's an in-betweener, it just happens to fit my particular cab size/weight/power requirements well and the price is right). But I'll definitely be giving it a little go without the filtering, just out of curiosity.

[quote name='alexclaber' timestamp='1371118236' post='2109963'] The key thing to consider.. [/quote] Aware of this, but it raises several points - first, subjectively the Faital unit I have behaves very well indeed (possibly in part due to demodulation ring?), in that you can push it very hard and it still sounds acceptable, unlike the Eminence units I have which show a far more drastic and audibly unpleasant transition as you push them 'too hard'. This is also true of older Celestion (ceramic) drivers I have, in that the transition behaviour is very different to the Eminence units. Second related point, THD is very much a proxy specification in this context, and not IMO any more useful than any other spec in isolation - 10% is a completely arbitrary figure, tells you nothing about the frequency distribution, and is limited to the frequency domain. I know the way the ERB cab concept evolved led people toward the Eminence drivers, partly because of specified xmax and partly because of cost (especially in the US) but I'd be interested to know what deficiencies you feel eg the Faital drivers, (or Beyma, 18Sound, B&C) have in comparison. Before I got more into the bass cab land I did a lot of PA work and I don't recall any high-end stuff using Eminence - presumably there're far more in the US. I don't doubt they can make good drivers, but at the same time I haven't heard any Eminence-loaded cabs since that have made me think their quality is particularly outstanding when compared to any other decent modern woofer. FWIW for me, the Kappalite range seem to have stood up well and if I was in the market for a very loud, light commercial cab I'd look to Barefaced over most of the other offerings, But, I feel the deltalite 10s and 12s underperform compared to what their spec would suggest when looking at similar offerings from other manufacturers. For example the Celestion 10" neos I have absolutely slay the Deltalite 10s when it comes to high power, and they are quite an old design now.

Do you think the coloration is the inherent response of your design, or is it cabinet mechanical resonance at higher power levels (ie could stiffer material/bracing fix it)?

The 3012HO is a 'better' (more powerful) driver [i]on paper[/i] than the Faital 12PR300, which would be more directly comparable to the Deltalite (2.5" voice coil, similar rated excursion, wattage, broadband sensitivity). But I've not heard the 12PR300, however I have been doing a lot of reading about driver design as well as a lot of listening to speakers, and I think the paper doesn't tell you as much as it seems especially if you go by the usual measures of xmax, wattage, T-S specs and f-response charts. Xmax is an especially over-simplified/over-used measure, that seems to be touted in basscabland as the be-all and end-all when it comes to judging output at high power. For one thing, some drivers behave a lot better beyond 'x-max' than others, and I think that how they start to misbehave differs a lot in audibility/objectionability as well. Smoothness isn't all about the f-response chart either, you can EQ a speaker 'flat' but a good clean PA driver will still sound less coloured than one with poorly suppressed resonances. Comes down to the usual old cliche that you have to let your ears be the judge

[quote name='Alexthemack' timestamp='1370782108' post='2105416'] I'm in love with my hotrod-red Jag bass - it feels solid and well-made, plays beautifully, and looks the BOMB - but I keep wanting to get more of a P-bass sound from it at the moment. Thought it might be a cool idea to replace the neck pickup with p-bass pickups. Is this wise? Will I get the tones I want? Short of trading in for a P/J Deluxe or something of course... But I don't think I want to get rid of this big ol' red cutie just yet... [/quote] If the routing is an issue, try a DiMarzio Model J, it does a pretty convincing P impression especially when wired in series.

If it's like my Jap basses (one's an export Aerodyne) then it's a polyurethane or polyester, ie a 2-part catalysed finish - be really surprised if you could do anything other than cause more damage with heat. If you want to check, put a small amount of acetone on a cotton bud and try it somewhere inconspicuous like the neck pocket - nitro or acrylic will soften, it won't do anything to poly. I'd suggest a car acrylic as close a colour as you can find, spray this on, wait a week or two (it really does take a while to harden) then blend with very fine finishing paper like iceonaboy suggests. If necessary repeat with a clearcoat.

That's interesting Pete - for some reason I can't remember, there was something that suggested Deltalite to me but the revelation that it's not would count as a plus in my book - I've been playing with a Faital 8" unit and it is a nice driver. Also just starting to build a compact PA subwoofer around their 15FH520, a lightweight 15" monster, hoping/expecting it to do good things! I'll post up some details on the DIY section at some point just in case anyone's interested in either project. Been talking to a structural engineer who specialises in wood which has been rather enlightening in terms of understanding lightweight cabinet construction.

IIRC there was some discussion as the designs were developed about which drivers to use, and the Barefaced went with Beyma for the midrange while the fEarful went with 18Sound, probably due to availability. I could be wrong about this, but I think the frequency response charts from 18sound themselves were done minus dustcap and as result there is a resonance peak which shows up in real life in the upper-mid/treble range, that's not on the chart. It's possible that later iterations of the fEarful crossover have dealt with that though. The recommended 18sound tweeter on the fEarful is almost certainly a nicer unit than the rather long-in-the-tooth Eminence APT80 (common on many bass cabs, including Barefaced and Bergantino I think). Probably not much of an issue for a bass cab though, especially given how high they'll cross over in a 3-way design.

[quote name='chris_b' timestamp='1370908116' post='2107444'] Not sure what you're getting at here! Bergantino cabs are never "too much of a good thing" for any style. [/quote] How you love your Bergs All I'm saying is that stack speakers and you change the frequency response (as well as distortion) compared to a single, so if you get it sounding just perfect with one cab it won't be exactly the same adding a second cab, the physics says 'no'.

I'd be very interested to see what you've come up with, are you using software to assist in this? A strict transmission line is a bit impractical as a bass cab, but a hybrid 'mass-loaded transmission line' would be fun to explore if you feel so inclined. Others will disagree. My own feeling is that although the empirical descriptions are different for each, a bass reflex, transmission line and horn all behave according to the same physics and a good mathematical model describes all of them successfully - a geometry that's somewhere in between will share some of the features of each approach, so its up to you to decide whether the advantages outweigh the disadvantages for your application/preferences. Subjectively, TLs can sound very nice for some reason!

I know what you're saying - for some types of playing you don't want too much boom, a tighter sound is where it's at. The output from two speakers stacked is only fully constructive below a certain frequency so you will get a more even bass/low mid boost, right in a region that can interact with rooms, and then more listener-dependent combing effects at higher frequencies, which means you can lose some of the higher harmonic definition - that's one reason why an 810 is not just the sound of a 110 magnified to our ears. The heft that Discreet talks about is definitely where a lot of players have the meat of their sound, and it works well for certain genres - if the J12 plays like the J10s I have, then it has tons of that low-mid boost already. I think the Bergs are voiced similarly down there albeit not so pronounced, so if you stack them it could easily be too much of a 'good thing' for some styles and definitely in certain rooms.

There is probably a difference between a sound engineer's 'mid-priced' PA and what people who don't do sound count as 'mid-priced' Among the former, I'd say the QSC K12 would be worth a look. There are big advantages to an active speaker of that quality - the inherent gains in volume and distortion of bi-amping, but also the DSP correction/bass management which means they can push the woofer harder without causing overexcursion. A passive system just can't match that without a lot of extra outboard.

I've known the Beatles stuff since I was a tiddler so I just enjoyed them for what they were, which IMO was a great band who evolved an awful lot over a very short timescale (I can't think of any other pop artists who made that many albums in that much time). But, listening to them for the first time as an adult with an already extensive listening history is bound to be different. Lots is going to sound derivative/obvious until you put it in the context of when it was happening. I can say for sure, learning their songs as a child, breaking down how they worked, was a great and very accessible musical education in pop music harmony, melody/polyphony and arrangement.

Bassman's right, a PA approach is the way to get 'transparent'. If it's too ruthlessly clear, you may find that high quality reproduction at high volume exposes previously unnoticed deficiencies of the zoom unit!

If it's just for rehearsal and you already have a compact, why not make the weight/size saving worthwhile and go for a ten inch unit? I use one loaded with the celestion ntr ten from a markbass f1 and always have volume in reserve, it is a nice driver.

Hmm, I would not be very happy with that deal if I was the singer! The Genz use nice cast-frame woofers... so the cost compromise comes somewhere else less critical for bass guitar, ie the 4kHz crossover point, too high for a 12" driver without seriously compromising dispersion and increasing distortion right in a critical register for vocals. Plus, these speakers are OEMs voiced for bass guitar - I'd be very surprised if the cab's output was near flat. Having said that, the Carlsbros are probably not great either and could be even worse, but my opinion is that the money would be far better spent on smaller speakers designed with vocal reproduction in mind. After all, the voice is normally most important in 60s/70s pop!

[quote name='xilddx' timestamp='1369873334' post='2093906'] I'm also wondering if you feel the bands you are a fan of owe you something. And what they owe you. [/quote] Great question IMO, because it looks at ownership of music/creative output in a different way than the usual. 'We owe it to the fans...', tacit acknowledgement that a big part of the success of a band is (always?) due to fans' free word-of-mouth/publicity as well as direct financial input. Some people's emotional investment in these things is massive - their mistake to make perhaps if the 'relationship' is one-way, but I think a lot of artists feel a certain obligation to these fans nonetheless, for good and bad. Could make an argument that the best artists in one sense are those who continue to evolve, but in a way that takes people along with them to places they didn't expect. My own favourite music looking back is the stuff that mixed what I already liked with something new, that I had to learn to appreciate and sent me in a new direction as a listener.

[quote name='Skol303' timestamp='1369917296' post='2094424'] ...I'll get me coat. [/quote] Yes. Yes, I think you probably should