Phil Starr

I tried Elixirs and they do last well, I left them on for a couple of years and when I changed them there was an improvement in sound but not that dramatic and the degradation in sound is so slow you don't really notice. My regular strings are Dean Markley Blue Steels which last really well, I like the sound too and reckon to get a year out of them. I was changing Rotosounds every 3 months. I don't like a really bright sound (for me the Roto's sounded best about 4 weeks old) and I don't use a pick which I guess would be tougher on the coating for Elixirs

Social Club shudder.... Did they tell you to turn down and then stop you for the meat draw?

Ha ha recording studios, it's like stnding in front of all of your friends with no clothes on. I hate the sound of my bass playing on recordings, you can hear everything completely unvarnished, Every undamped note, timing error, squeaks on the string, irregularities in volume etc etc. It's all very humbling. Then the recording engineer says; "bass and drums are OK, let's go again with guitar and vocals". At gigs I'm expecting someone to come along and tap me on the shoulder and say "come on now, you don't really play bass do you?" We've all been there.

You are getting great advice btw. You've hit the barrier of taste I think at this point. You can see the advantages of a speaker with better excursion, the effects of cabinet size and so on. the question is what you want to get out of this. Is the extra bass of some of the designs important to you or can you afford to sacrifice that for other things? Speaker design is like squeezing a balloon a bit, as soon as you change one thing something pops up elsewhere. I think you've come a long way, you've clearly made the Pulse the one to beat and it's a good choice given you aren't intending to put a huge amount of power through it. you can see why the Beyma was so attractive. With Qts of 0.38 it is neither over nor under damped and so gives a fairly flat response in a range of cabs. The extra excursion (Xmax) is what makes the maximum SPL look so good but you aren't going to put 350w through it. You might be better off seeing what the spl is at the maximum power of your amp and comparing that. I'm glad you stumbled on the Beta 12A2 I love the look of the big wide upper peak in it's response. Eminence are just a little more expensive over here but one of the advantages of Eminence is that they don't change their designs too often and replacements and re-cones are possible if they go wrong somewhere down the line and they have proven longevity. A really safe choice. I think of them as being like Levi's, if you can't be bothered to shop around you know you are buying a quality product which won't date or let you down. Mind you I've had no hint of trouble from the Beyma's. B&C, Celestion are good too. Of the speakers you've looked at the Beyma is going to give you the most bass and the flattest response. In a 50l cab it doesn't sound 'hi fi', at low levels it sounds clean, unremarkable, the top end is there but more laid back than most commercial cabs, cranked up it sounds immense, huge but IMO it needs a bit of mid boost to cut through the mix and in a small space the bass needs trimming. The Eminence 12A2 is going to sound quite old school, in a practical sized box you'll get the 100Hz boost and that midrange boost as well, a smiley faced eq in fact. It's an engaging sound. The Celestion Pulse is going to be somewhere in between but maybe more similar to the Eminence. you could make a good argument for all of these speakers but it looks like a 12 is going to be your thing.

I think my initial advice that you should only use this at moderate volumes until you have this sorted is good, as everyone is saying you may do further damage. Is this a bit of historic kit you want to keep original, something you particularly love or just an old system you happen to use? I suppose I'm asking how much money and effort do you want to spend on it? Have you emailed Marshall? Is this a sealed cab or is it ported?

I'm having trouble finding the speakers, is that a 2x10 in a separate cab?

assuming it is a 4x10? the speakers are most likely wired in series/parallel, ie they are wired in pairs first and then all together. this means you can only disconnect them two at a time. They are then effectively using the whole of the space they were once sharing with the other pair. This will affect their bass response and may end up with some excessive excursion/reduction in power handling. You'd be fine at moderate sound levels but not in a gig situation. Time to look to see if you can source the blown speaker.

Ha ha let me know how you get on, The H4N is a bit big so I was thinking of the H1 as a lighter, less obtrusive solution for when I'm playing with someone else's PA and had no control over monitors. The crucial thing is the mics and the mics in the H4 are brilliant for the money. As said the in ears only work if you have isolation so one ear doesn't work. It will also fail to protect that ear and they will end up with hearing loss, as I have. An audience mic is a good call

Are they happy to try things in the rehearsal room? Try your singer with some closed back headphones and an ambient monitoring system. I used a Zoom H4N recorder taped to my mic stand but all you need is a mic and something which will take the signal to headphone level. Using an ambient system was revelation, I was in the room but the sound was hyper real. When we weren't playing I could hear everything everyone was saying, no sense of isolation at all. When we were playing I could hear every instrument clearly in the mix and by sliding the Zoom closer to me I could put my vocals exactly where I wanted them in the mix. Best of all I had a volume control so I could simply turn the whole band up and down as I wanted. You can also tune out the drums by simply pointing the mic's away from the drums. The thing is this shows people what they have to gain. No amount of talking will do that. 30 secs of singing and hearing your voice over the rest of the band will show how it works. Moving the ambient mic/recorder towards the singers mouth to make him louder will make sense in a way that telling him you are going to buy a mysterious box even more complex than your current mixer won't work. OK you'll have to swap in ears for the 'phones and the mixer for moving the mic around but they'll understand the goal. Stop talking about saying they can do their own mix, start talking about giving them their own volume control.

No, you will be sharing the power equally between the two speakers so 450W will go to each. The amp will only produce it's full power into 4ohms so using one speaker on it's own for smaller gigs will be fine too. Don't worry about it

I know, should have warned him I've dragged the design details up to the front in each case though.

oops

If you do decide to go ahead with the SM212 then there are a couple of threads about the cabs you can read

Do say I've seen both bands several times. Andy Powell used to play Honiton Motel just down the road from me as a warm up for his annual European tour, it would have been rude not to go. A mate of mine is a big Wishbone Ash fan and I've seen the Martin Turner version a couple of times too. Very different approaches Martin's band is a recreation of WA with Martin front and centre. Andy Turner who I think has never really stopped gigging is more of a band, they'll play their latest songs as well as Argus and whilst the old ones are recognisable there's a lot of improvisation too. Both are good bands, I have to say Andy Turner is a lovely guy and so is Bob Skeat his bassist.

Where are you based in the UK? If you are anywhere near the West Country you are welcome to try out the SM212. It is loud and it does do lots of nice clean bass, the good excursion means that the transfer magnitude (basic frequency response) is maintained at high power. The response is pretty flat over most of the frequencies you get from the bass. Subjectively it means that it seems to lack a bit of top end as most other bass speakers either have a a bit of extra output above 1000Hz or are used with a horn. I gig with a pair of these (no horns) They are just kind of effortlessly bassy, in small rooms they can sound muddy but great in larger venues. I've designed a smaller cab for them too (30litres) which reduces the deep bass and creates a 3dBish boost around 100Hz which solved the problem of overwhelming bass in smaller venues. If I do go out with one cab it's the smaller one I take. That B&C has a bit of a top end boost which I currently dial in with a bit of eq on the Beymas, They are neo's too which are much lighter and would also work well in a smaller cab. Choosing a cab size for all your speakers helps you narrow down the choice but remember each speaker will work better in a cab which matches it try experimenting with smaller cabs and changing the tuning for the B&C and you might find a better compromise. The output at 100Hz needs to be pushed upwards and you can afford to lose a little below 50Hz. a smaller cab will also reduce excursion and improve power handling where it currently dips.

Ha ha I shouldn't do this so early in the morning. That paragraph didn't read well did it? I meant to say that my preference is for a mild but smooth rise in output through the upper mids and reduced output below 50Hz so extra deep bass isn't what I look for. That's down to taste and the way I use my bass, I'm only interested in sounding good live. I use headphones at home so I'm not interested in a good sound away from the band. as such I wasn't attracted to the BP102's extra bass and wasn't worried about the apparently lower bass output of the 2010. That's personal opinion though, not science. the science tells you the frequency response to expect, experience tells you what that is likely to sound like but taste isn't something I'd offer an opinion on. I'm completely with Bill, try modelling some more 12's unless you are determined to go for something smaller. I'd probably not recommend the SM212 particularly unless you want a lot of clean bass. It has has a great Xmax for the price and goes quite low in a reasonable sized cab so lots of deep bass but when I first recommended it it was £65 at around £100 there are alternatives to look at. B&C, Faital and RCF all do great drivers at around the £100 mark and over in the UK they are cheaper than the equivalent US products, as long as we are in the EU that is If you are really only going to use that amp then this might be worth modelling http://www.bluearan.co.uk/index.php?id=BAC12CL64&browsemode=category

First of all great advice from BFM. you need to re-do this with the same size cab to make sense of the response below 200Hz 'ish as the cab is as important as the driver . Above that look at the published responses. Is it the neo magnet? yes and no, you are looking at very different drivers. The BP 102 is really designed as part of a multiple driver and probably sealed cab. it's got a heavier cone (mms) and a softer long throw suspension for deeper bass, though a sealed cab would raise this. all this lowers the efficiency, it is less loud than the other speakers which wouldn't matter in a multiple driver cab. The basslite has a more powerful magnet and that is what is affecting the bass response. The increased magnetic power increases it's efficiency but also the electromagnetic damping of the speaker which rolls off the bass response. It'll respond well to being in a smaller box than the BP102 as the damping will be coming from the magnet and won't need to come rom the cab. It's the extra magnetic power that matters not the material the magnet is made of. Which will you prefer? well you won't know unless you build them all but this is my preference. The BP102 has a 'smiley face response baked in, it'll sound like an Ampeg. that bass peak is because it's an underdamped speaker but in the box you have the peak of that bass boost is quite low. I personally don't like excessive response below 50Hz, sounds great in the bedroom but playing live it just creates mud for the whole band. Have a close look at the upper peak of the Celestion. the vertical scale is 10dB on the graph and for the Eminence it's 5dB, that's going to be a big peak and a nice aggressive sound if you like that. Celestion calculate Xmax differently to eminence by the way. Eminence would rate it higher so the Pulse would be less excursion limited than your graph shows. They all have that upper range peak though, the heavier cone of the BP102 may be contributing to a smoother breakup mode but it's probably more complex than that You might also think about efficiency. The Pulse is loudest and the BP102 the quietest by 2db up and down from the Basslite. you'll hear that 2db difference and definitely notice 4dB. 118db midrange efficiency is going to be a bit short in a band situation but you might get away with it in the rehearsal room. You won't with 114dB.

I agree context is all. Brown Sugar contains a few historical references, 'houseboy' and 'Tent Show' which indicate Jagger had more than a passing knowledge of slavery. the gist of the song is that Brown Sugar tastes so good; better than white sugar perhaps? In context today that would be describing black people by their sexuality, black men are bigger and black women sexier. We'd quite rightly be in trouble if we said that at work or anywhere in public nowadays. It's one of those things we would think 'oh no grandad is going to say something racist, oh there he's said it' FWIW I don't think he is a racist. I grew up in the same part of Kent/south London as he did a few years later and went to the Grammar School next to his. I doubt he knew any black people growing up and around the time he wrote this he was having affairs with a series of black women. I'm fairly confident he was just carried away with how sexy it all was and thought he was saying something positive about black women. Brown Sugar was a great song, still fills the floor and takes me back to my youth but those lyrics are embarrassing in a modern context. I couldn't play Brown Sugar now it was different in the 70's.

I'm a bit surprised no-one has really got to the point yet. These were different times but there are a lot of things we see differently now Gold Coast slave ship bound for cotton fields Sold in the market down in New Orleans Scarred old slaver knows he's doin' all right Hear him whip the women just around midnight So the song is basically a joyous song about raping black slave women. I'm not surprised she doesn't want to sing those lyrics.

The problem with raising the cab is that you would lose the reinforcement you get from the floor which acts a bit like a mirror for the lower frequencies. That's less of a problem if you have two cabs of course but you could put a cab on a post with a top hat in each cab or use a speaker stand if you really wanted to do it. Personally I'd go for the Stagg stand and avoid having to modify my cabs.

JJ are a Slovak firm that make valves. Long time since I had anything to do with valves but I seem to remember the old British kit tended to favour EL34's and US amps tended towards 6550's but it's a long time since the 70's

Yeah Stevie spent a lot of effort in firstly choosing a nice driver for the horn and then taking out some of the irregularities out of the frequency response. It was really noticeable when we did the comparisons with other speakers at the SW bass bash and we had a chance to listen properly late on. It would be really interesting to try them as PA speakers.

Just to back up what John has said the only real way to avoid this is to use an HPF. remove the frequencies you can't really hear anyway. If your speaker is tuned to 50 Hz then filtering below 40Hz at 24dB/octave makes sense. Eminence recommend this for a lot of their speaker designs, not because there is anything wrong with their speakers but because they know their stuff. the other thing I'd say would be don't slap the bass without using compression or a limiter. Not all amps produce much in the way of really low frequencies but it's possible to make an amp that goes all the way down. If you did then when you pushed the strings down it wouldn't make a note but the cone would follow that movement. If you slap the strings you are pushing them down as far as they go so that represents an extreme movement The initial movement is relatively slow compared with say the 80 cycles per second of the main component of low E so this represents something going on below the resonant frequency of you cab. It's possible that Funkle's amp is one with a relatively low cut off, most have a bit of HPF baked in. Combine that with slapping and inadvertently he's invented a new obstacle course for speakers

First of all thanks for the link, really interesting, probably worth a thread on it's own To answer your question it's very simple. As you reduce the frequency the speaker has to move further to produce the same volume. To make things louder the speaker moves further as you turn up the power. The HPF simply reduces the power below a certain frequency. It's the combination of high power and low frequency that creates the greatest excursion. (This is a little more complicated if you have a ported cab. At high frequencies the air in the port doesn't move so the cab is in a practical sense sealed. As the frequency approaches the port tuning frequency the plug of air in the port starts to vibrate. This creates a back pressure on the speaker and reduces it's movement until at the tuning frequency it isn't moving at all and all the sound is coming from the port. Below this frequency the back pressure falls away very quickly and the air in the cab exerts no pressure on the speaker and it is effectively flapping around in free air. Excursion will become extreme at very low frequencies even with just a few 10's of watts because of the inherent design of all ported cabs)

I'm not sure how this was all measured and there is no scale on the vertical axis but all I see here is a filter cutting in at around 25Hz plus a little bit of non linearity between 25 and 100Hz due to an underdamped circuit. I'm not sure I understand what you are saying about stages. If the vertical divisions are 10db then this looks to me (I've done no proper sums though) like a 4th order Chebyshev at around 25Hz. That's going to remove some subsonics but leave the audio signal almost untouched. People speak well of the Thumpinator so copying it is a good idea, saves a lot of experimentation. As a speaker designer however I can say you could get more protection for your speakers by filtering at a higher frequency and I believe it would also sound better if you did that. I can see the logic of following an established design though. I'll follow this project with interest.