noelk27

[quote name='BigRedX' timestamp='1355612985' post='1900675']I'm not denying that Tokai Gakki have made Tokai branded copies of Rickenbacker Guitars ... . However the existence of the guitars does not automatically mean that they also made copies of Rickenbacker basses. ... The internet is a wonderful thing. If something exists somewhere, then someone will have posted a photograph of it. In the 20 or so years that I have been interested in Tokai instruments I have never seen any photographs of 4001 or 4003 style basses with Tokai logos on them. ... It may be that Tokai have had complaints from RIC regarding their guitar copies (I'd be surprised if they haven't), but if they were making 4001/3 clones in 2000 or earlier there would be no reason for them not to have Tokai on the TRC.[/quote] Actually, Bill-R is asserting that Tokai Gakki were making Rockinbetter badged instruments through the 80s, up until 1994, and further asserting that thereafter some other version of Tokai Gakki was operating as Tokai Korea and continued to make Rockinbetter badged instruments. That gives us in excess of 30, possibly closer to 40, years where it's being asserted Rockinbetter instruments have been available. Can anyone recall seeing a Rockinbetter badged instrument before the year 2000? In fact, can anyone recall seeing any before the mid 00s? Seriously, if Rockinbetter Rickenbacker copies had been in circulation since the 80s then one of the JapCrap collectors on this site would have previously, or would currently, own one. Does anyone want to jump in at this point and show off their 80s or 90s Rockinbetter? Please, if you've got one, do us all a huge favour and jump in now. Oh, and as for Tokai being in any way intimidated by threats of legal action by John Hall, well, that sort of thing, generally speaking, doesn’t bother Japanese corporations. They know, under Japanese law, that they aren't committing any offence, unless the foreign manufacturer in question has take the time, and considerable expense, to register all the relevant copyrights, designs and patents in Japan, and subsequently maintained a presence there. You only have to ask Fender USA about that sort of situation, , and what is necessary to combat the competition.

[quote name='Bill-R' timestamp='1355609546' post='1900645']If you check this link [url="http://www.tokaiguitarsaustralia.com.au/INDEX.html"]http://www.tokaiguit...m.au/INDEX.html[/url] its the "[b]Tokai[/b] [b]Guitars[/b] Australia" if you look under Vintage at the bottom suprise... suprise you find Rebel Rockers. why would a company only selling Tokai Japan/China guitars sell something that they have nothing to do with. am I the only one that thinks it strange that Australia Tokai dealers all sell Reble rockers. in the Uk all Tokai dealers sell Rockenbetter. but the say the have no conection to rockinbetter. if you click on the bass to zoon it up pops the Tokai badge next to the bass. it just does not add up. the have no other makes advertised only Tokai. there is something not right about all this! why would Tokai let Rockinbetter/Rebel be sold by there dealers and promoted as being Tokai made? and why give a 5 year warranty and a Tokai gig bag?[/quote] Again, that's another importer/distributor website, as it clearly states on the title page, owned and operated by Jade Australia: http://www.jadeaustralia.com.au/index.html It's not a website owned and operated by Tokai Gakki.

[quote name='Bill-R' timestamp='1355598018' post='1900488']what your saying is Tokai Licensed someone in China to make there guitars but with there name on it. is that right![/quote] No, I'm not.

[quote name='Bill-R' timestamp='1355597123' post='1900470']like Fender, Gibson, Hofner, Gresch. Yamaha. all not having a Percentage in Cor-Tec but still having them make there guitars for them.[/quote] The difference being that those companies would have contracted Cor-Tek (correct spelling) to build an order for them. Again, that's not the situation for Tokai Gakki, which has licensed use of its brand name.

[quote name='Bill-R' timestamp='1355595902' post='1900447']Yes and that just what Tokai did 20 years ago, have someone else make the Rockinbetter in China. did they then sell them off! who knows but they kept being made. just the same as Gresch, Yamaha, Hofner, Gibson, and Fender all had some models made by Cor-Tek in Korea. but the guitar you bought was still a Fender, Gresch or Gibson or what ever. the fact that the maker Licensed out the making to another firm to make there guitars to there speck does not make that guitar a bad guitar. China made Tokai are still Tokai. most makers do not want you to know they have had there guitars made by another maker and probable made cheeper. fender had some of there squire's made by cor-tek and you can tell by the s/n but its still a fender, just like the MIA, MIM, MIJ are all still fenders. Cor-Tek made more guitars that Gibson, Fender and Rickenbacker all together made in 2008 but you dont see Cot-Tek on any guitar, the closest you see it Cort. so someone is buying a Cor-Tek made guitar with a diffrent name on it. how many people have Cot-Tek guitars and don't know. why do they have Rockinbetter in europe but Rebelrocker in Aus??? its the same bass???[/quote] Garbage. Fender USA own a percentage of Fender Japan, along with the joint venture partners, and participates in it's running. That legal arrangement is fundamentally different from one where image or brand rights are licensed, as is the situation for Tokai Gakki, which does not own a percentage of the Chinese conglomerate or participate in its running.

[quote name='Bill-R' timestamp='1355592873' post='1900368']here is a USA link. [url="http://www.usamusic.nl/umi/component/content/article/75-tokai-guitars/347-tokaioverview.html"]http://www.usamusic....aioverview.html[/url][/quote] Proving what? That some imports who stock made in China product badged "Tokai" also stock Rockinbetter? You do understand that made in China "Tokai" aren't made by Tokai Gakki, but by a Chinese conglomerate that licensed the "Tokai" name? Again, licensing brand names and trademarks is common practice for Japanese corporations, as many "brands" only exist as non-corporeals.

Posted elsewhere ... http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=Hr3HCNIgv40#!

[quote name='Bill-R' timestamp='1355591635' post='1900337']My bass came in two plain brown box with the model RG4003. and the S/n started Cn1006, it had i sticker on the box saying Tokai guitars UK. like i said they have nothing to do with Tokai Japan and Tokai uk have only been importing Rockinbetter since 2002, i have no idea who imported them since 1994 to 2002 when they moved to China. if you check you will see that the Tokai Rg43 was only branded for just over a year with the Tokai name and then it changed to Rockinbetter or rebelrocker if you live in the in Aus. it is very hard to find a Tokai rg43 anywhere. easy to get a rockinbetter rg43. not being able to find one dont mean there not around. who is mot making them i do not know but do think its Cort. it not east to find a picture of a bass made over 20 years ago and only imported in 100s and only made for a few years, its east to find rockinbetters, if I come across one i'll post it,[/quote] Something telling me my bottom Yen is safe and sound, and about to go back into my pocket.

[quote name='BigRedX' timestamp='1355590074' post='1900307']But can you supply us with photos of an actual Tokai-badged 4001/3 ... ?[/quote] Got my bottom Yen right here.

[quote name='Bill-R' timestamp='1355583599' post='1900207']i have a picture of a ric copy 330 with a tokai TRC[/quote] You're correct. Tokai Gakki has previously manufactured Rickenbacker 330 copies. These can be seen in Tokai Gakki catalogues of the time. People are known to own these (myself included). [quote name='Bill-R' timestamp='1355583599' post='1900207']i belive that the ric copy RG43 was only made for two years, the 4003 bass was made for about 4 or 5 years with the Tokai TRC. after the its like it was contracted out and made in China, Rockinbetters have not been made by Tokai since around 1994. the ric copy RG43 and the Bass 4003 were not exported and only sold only in Japan[/quote] Show me the proof. Show me a Tokai Gakki catalogue with Rickenbacker 4001 or 4003 copies pictured, or referred to. Show me a photograph of one as owned by someone. In fact, if any member of the forum has a photograph of, or better still owns, a Tokai badged 4001 or 4003 copy feel free to jump in here and post the photographs. I'm betting my bottom Yen it's not going to happen. All I'm seeing in your posts are the same assertions rehashed with no evidence, other than links to retailers, and you can't tell me it's not in the interests of those retailers to connect what they're trying to sell to the legacy and heritage of Tokai Gakki, even if what it is they are selling has absolutely nothing to do with Tokai Gakki.

With reference to Mr BRX's comments above, I'll second his observations, and find myself in total agreement with everything said.

[quote name='Bill-R' timestamp='1355528413' post='1899755']I belive the first Rockinbetters were made by Tokai but then switched from Japan to China in the 80s its said that Tokai sent over some of there top staff to set up plants in China.[/quote] Where in China in the 80s was Tokai Japan operating production facilities? Sure this would come as news to Adachi San. Even today, the Tokai branded instruments manufactured in China have only the most tenuous connection to Tokai Japan, as those instruments are manufactured by a Chinese conglomerate that purchased a license from Tokai Japan, allowing use of the classic Tokai name and graphics, and some designs from previous product lines. Tokai Japan took no involvement in setting up or subsequently supervising production in China. Anyway, in the 80s, it was South Korea that Tokai Japan leased and operated additional production facilities.

It can't.

Own two Washburn "Wing" guitars with serials within six digits, bought ten or so years apart.

"I can not authenticate this pickguard for certain." Says it all.

Tokai Japan have no connection with Rockinbetter.

Nope. Serial numbers less than 30 units apart.

No more than for one without an MM autograph. Which, assuming 10/10 condition, case and all candy, would be no more than two-thirds current street price.

[quote name='4StringFortress' timestamp='1354978643' post='1892558']I really like the passive sound but I also like the versatility in having an active bass. Any suggestions?[/quote] BB1100

http://www.professorstring.com/index.php#.UL_uSo5y_Hg

[quote name='Sibob' timestamp='1354723952' post='1889618'][H]ow do people cope with the difference in size difference of the P pickup compared with the J. By that I mean the distance your anchored thumb is from the strings.[/quote] With the older variants, such as the original 2000, if you ignore the pickup surround, then the P and J pickup bodies are at, approximately, the same distance from the "E" string. With the current 2000, again ignoring the surround, there's a ridge on the P pickup body, which is quite pronounced, and this and the J pickup body, again, are approximately the same distance from the "E" string.

"Kay P bass thought perhaps 1968, with ebony fingerboard." No expert when it comes to Kay, but wasn't the KB24 first introduced in the mid/late 70s? Wouldn't mind his idiocy and ineptitude so much if the bullshit he spouts was accurate, but it never is.

[quote name='cocco' timestamp='1354383606' post='1885444']Is it modified? That looks like a knob where the switch should be.[/quote] No. Standard controls (Vol P, Vol J, Tone). No pickup selector on this model.

[quote name='Kongo' timestamp='1354412792' post='1885769']I take it they are real high end models?[/quote] No. After Yamaha introduced the standard neck-through 3000 ('82), as the top of the BB 4-string range, it went on to introduce a narrow neck version of the 3000 ('83), alongside the bolt-on X (aka 1600, outside Asia) ('83) and humbucking 1300 ('85). The X and 1300 were both less expensive than the 3000 (around two-thirds). The bolt-on X24 ('84) was introduced as an alternative to the standard X, given the popularity/success of the revised BB range.