Twigman

[quote name='skankdelvar' timestamp='1340205633' post='1701035'] Plenty of great music [i]didn't[/i] get played, not because programmers are tasteless (in fact most I knew were passionate about the subject) but because it was the [i]commercial [/i]side that mattered. Why d'ya think Peel went out at nights rather than breakfast? Low demand, low support, niche interest. . [/quote] And yet many bands that started life on Peel moved to the 'mainstream'....U2,Smiths, Cure, New Order to name but 4.... Who assessed what was [i]commercially viable[/i]? They obviously felt that those 4 bands were unmarketable or why would they need Peel to break them?

[quote name='skankdelvar' timestamp='1340204712' post='1701007'] But I [i]am[/i] saying the internet has made marketing bands a far more complicated and expensive exercise. [/quote] really? File sharing is free. It kept my band 'alive' for years. Can't get better vaslue for money than that.

[quote name='4000' timestamp='1340207703' post='1701087'] Oops! Missed the point entirely! [/quote] How have I missed the point? The point is one is no more likely to make a living now as one ever was.....illegal downloading just is not a factor in this.

[quote name='skankdelvar' timestamp='1340203441' post='1700975'] It is far more expedient that power be in the hands of few. And a bit of quality control might ensure that most of the crap would never reach an audience's ears. [color=#ffffff].[/color] [/quote] Let me be the judge of that - not the commercially minded record company exec whose only interest is the bottom line. Who is he to decide what I like or should be listening to?

[quote name='skankdelvar' timestamp='1340200534' post='1700920'] My point is that that things have got worse not better. Had the internet had any benefit we would be enjoying it. But I think the majority here would agree we are not. [/quote] I strongly disagree. The internet is the greatest markrting tool ever given to the artist

[quote name='Conan' timestamp='1340199401' post='1700891'] Have you any evidence for these assertions? [/quote] I work in an industry supporting the touring industry. We are as busy as ever. While some venues close (Astoria others open to take their place O2 Academy) We're certainly finding it easier to get gigs than we did 20 years ago More music is being made - music is much cheaper to make - whether any of it is good could be debated but if it is true that a certain percentage of the music is 'good' then it follows that more 'good' music id being made.

[quote name='skankdelvar' timestamp='1340198365' post='1700853'] For one thing, all those medium sized gigs are gone. Basically, live music is either Enormodrome gigs by dreadful old dinosaurs / simpering pop kids. Or it's a bunch of no hopers down the Frog and Dog. Nothing in the middle, see. In my day you could see name bands in 1000 cap venues. Where are they now, the likes of ... [/quote] they still exist: O2 academy Loads of venues in Europe smaller 300-400 I'd say there are as many of too: eg Purple Turtle OK so we have lost The Astoria/The Marquee and the Mean Fiddler but there are still plenty of venues

[quote name='4000' timestamp='1340196258' post='1700778'] that the possibility of developing your art or craft without the distractions of a full-time job, is no longer something to aspire to. [/quote] It may still be something to aspire to but one is no less likely to succeed now than one was 30 years ago

[quote name='skankdelvar' timestamp='1340196175' post='1700773'] Since the internet came in, are more bands touring or fewer? Are there more 'stepping-stone' mid-level venues or fewer? Is it easier to get a gig or more difficult? Is more good music being made or less? [/quote] Since the internet came in, are more bands touring or fewer? More Are there more 'stepping-stone' mid-level venues or fewer? About the same number Is it easier to get a gig or more difficult? Easier Is more good music being made or less? More What's your point?

Reason is very simple

All this talk of making a living from being in an originals band makes me laugh. It is and always has been extremely difficult to make a living from writing, recording and performing music. A very small percentage of those who embark down that road succeed. This is no different today than it has always been. Many artists back in the day maintained other full time employment after signing possibly lucrative recording contracts. Things are little different today. It's not the illegal distribution that is preventing artists from making a living from music. It's probably more to do with the poor marketing behind the music. To get a hit takes pots of cash in marketing. Many artists don't have that support. This is no different now than it was back in the day. Our record company spent next to nothing on promotion. We were lucky: John Peel liked us. Some radiojocks in Spain,Italy and Greece liked us. We have never been in a position to give up our day jobs. We're recording our 7th studio album at the moment. Even if this was to 'do an Elbow' and go platinum, I think only one or two of us would give up our day jobs - I don't think I would. To earn a living from original material is an unrealistic expectation.

[quote name='Happy Jack' timestamp='1340193484' post='1700709'] It's more of a Warm Rod really ... [/quote] without a V5 it could well be a Hot rod

[quote name='BigRedX' timestamp='1340193113' post='1700692'] But as you keep conveniently ignoring when I point it out AFAICS your current musical activities are pretty much founded on what you did as a band back in the 80s when you had record company support and the kind of time and money put into the band that most of us these days can only dream about. You wouldn't be getting to play the gigs that you do and command the fees that you do without that legacy. [/quote] Our audience now has very little to do with the promo in the 80s. Yes the material was recorded back then but a lot of our punters weren't even born back then. Would any of them know about us if we had relied solely on legitimate channels? No It is years since our records were played on the BBC. Without the illegal distribution network we would have no audience.

[quote name='silddx' timestamp='1340192819' post='1700680'] And what happens when the old bastards are too old to tour? Or get ill? Where's their income going to come from? [/quote] Folk buying the catalogue. Those folk who are reached through the illegal distribution networks because the pluggers are no longer being paid to get the records on radio playlists.. Just because some DL illegally does not mean all do. A downloaded album is probably not a 'lost sale' - those who DL everything the own from free sites probably would not pay for the music if the freebie option was not available. If anything a downloaded album is a bit of free marketing which may result in somebody spending some money which most definitely would not have been spent without access to the free stuff.

[quote name='4000' timestamp='1340192089' post='1700649'] All absolutely true, but not necessarily helpful to the growth of an artist or the development of talent. How many classic albums would not have been made had the artist in question been working 10 hours a day at Tescos? Or if they had been made, how long would they have taken and what would the quality of the results been like? How many people who do a full-time job can either employ skilled sound engineers or afford to spend the time to learn Protools etc back to front, even assuming their ears are up to it? These days once I get home from work I hardly have the energy to pick my bass up, let alone come up with the next Dark Side of the Moon. Maybe that's just me.[/quote] That may just be you....we're a 5 piece. three of us have home studios. One of us works full time in the music industry and owns his own record label. We all have quite senior roles for the companies that we work for. We still find time to write, rehearse and record our songs - yes it takes longer than it did in the 80s when we had fewer other commitments but we believe the quality is better now than it was. [quote name='4000' timestamp='1340192089' post='1700649'] On the subject of making your money from gigs, has anybody playing originals tried this recently? Lets just say I'd be on bread & water for the forseeable future...if that.[/quote] Every gig we play (albeit that's not many) we make a reasonable profit. We never play cover versions. Make of that what you will.

no V5 oh dear

[quote name='silddx' timestamp='1340188969' post='1700567'] But to sustain a career in music is not then easily possible is it. To make the best music you can make and really represent yourself at your best, you need to dedicate a lot of time to it, practising, writing, refining, learning, touring, promotion .. giving yourself the best chance at a sustainable career. You can't do all this and have a day job to pay the rent and eat and fund the next musical project. [/quote] We all have day jobs. We probably break even these days. Recording is far far far cheaper now than it was. Back in the 80s you'd be lucky to get change from £20k when recording an album. These days you can record an album for a fraction of that cost.

[quote name='BigRedX' timestamp='1340186777' post='1700515'] And BTW do you know what proportion of your free publicity comes from legitimate sources and what comes form those not so legal? [/quote] Very little comes from legitimate sources. Only 3 videos on youtube have been sanctioned by the band -i just did a search which came back with 512 results. http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=sad+lovers+and+giants&oq=sad+lovers+and+giants&aq=0&aqi=g10&aql=&gs_l=youtube.1.0.0l10.216.3845.0.5184.21.8.0.13.13.0.119.499.7j1.8.0...0.0.IC7CyKbSC5c The only legitimate sources we have afaik is iTunes (which is not free) and Amazon (which is not free) and what little is available on Spotify. We also have 1 track on Reverbnation. Everything else is technically illegal. Even with new bands then I still view the illegal networks as excellent marketing. Getting air time on legitimate radio can be an expensive exercise. Traditional marketing is just no longer cost effective. Exploiting the interweb is the way to get heard be it through legal or illegal distribution.

[quote name='paul_5' timestamp='1340185714' post='1700490'] fixed. [/quote] You don't get it do you? The illegal distributor may/may not have bought the track. The illegal downloader has not paid for the track and probably would not ver have paid for the track anyway. The illegal downloader may not even have ever heard the track without the illegal distributor making it available. Of those that are exposed to the music via the illegal distributor, some WILL go on to buy product. Without the illegal distributor those purchases would never have been made. I know this happens - we get fans contacting us all the time who say they discovered us through this illegal channel or that illegal channel. it's excellent FREE marketing

I view music piracy as a superb FREE marketing tool. Those that habitually download 1000s of tracks to their iPod would be unlikely to have paid for those tracks even if downloading was impossible. Many of those tracks would probably have never been heard by the downloader. The downloader plays those tracks, others hear those tracks, get curious and investigate further. Some people will dip into their pockets and buy stuff. these people may not ever have known about the music without the illegal distribution network. And how much has this promo cost the artist/record company? Nothing - it's free marketing.

[quote name='BigRedX' timestamp='1340183621' post='1700410'] IMO you are confusing piracy with some music being given away for free out of choice. It's up to each band and/or record company to decide whether or not that they give (some of) their music away for free or charge for it. [/quote] Neither us nor our record company(which had died) ever gave permission for any of our stuff to be loaded up to Spotify (our current record company still have not afaik allowed some of our catalogue to Spotify) or Youtube or anywhere. Almost everyone who heard us for the first time in the years 2003 to 2009 will have done so via an 'illegally' distributed source. I thank the 'distributors' whole heartedly for keeping the music alive.

[quote name='silddx' timestamp='1340182314' post='1700361'] I can't believe people defend it. I don't give a sh*t what someone wants to call it, but if some music has a price, and some f***er takes it without paying for it, then that is depriving the people who created the music of some income. In my book, it is called being a c*nt. [/quote] If nobody would ever hear it without 'illegal' distribution then nobody would buy it. Even if 10% of downloaders go on to buy something then 10% of something is more than 100% of nothing. My band only rarely got played on the radio. There were not many copies of our vinyls or CDs in circulation anyway. The original audience had grown up so their mates are hardly going to wnat to listen to us. But tens of thousands of plays on youtube among other things got us exposure and now we sell everything we can press.

[quote name='Twigman' timestamp='1340177126' post='1700242'] The only reason my band is still going today is because of illegal downloading and file sharing. The existence of the internet and this form of distribution has revived my band. Our original record company went bust in 1993, we released some stuff ourselves in 2002 but the back catalogue was no longer officially available. Interest grew due to file sharing, so much so that we reformed and our back catalogue was rereleased from 2009 and sells out of every run. If it was not for illegal streaming and downloading the band would no longer be working. [/quote] Sometimes I feel I am in a minority of one round here....

The only reason my band is still going today is because of illegal downloading and file sharing. The existence of the internet and this form of distribution has revived my band. Our original record company went bust in 1993, we released some stuff ourselves in 2002 but the back catalogue was no longer officially available. Interest grew due to file sharing, so much so that we reformed and our back catalogue was rereleased from 2009 and sells out of every run. If it was not for illegal streaming and downloading the band would no longer be working.

[quote name='mckendrick' timestamp='1340154604' post='1700177'] [/size][/font] [font=Arial][size=4]Hilarious.[/size][/font] [/quote] LOL Didn't Corona open in 85?