warwickhunt

What sort of file sizes will I end up with? I have to be aware of where I post/host them for accessibility.

Cheers for all of the thoughts, feedback and solid scientific knowledge. I am well aware that if you were going to draw conclusions from this bit of fun it would be absolutely pointless! It is not a case of me trying to prove/disprove anything but it is interesting (if that is the right word) when you have a set of cabs and you spend timing swapping and changing just one variable (the cab) and in some cases you can see how conceptions/misconceptions can be created. This idea isn't new but when I had a bass playing friend around we were actually blind testing (NOT 'testing') our Kemper profiles (and making profiles) through various devices and in the process the cabs became as much a focus as the profiles. Nothing deadly serious, just interesting to both of us. I think in the short term (possibly next week), I'm going to clear my music room (5m x 5m) a bit and do a fun/casual recording of the 4 cabs BUT I think I'll do it as 2/4 separate challenges (not going to call it a 'test', as it isn't); I'll do it with 8 ohm singles + the GB 4 ohm cab @ 2m but also @ 4" (where you might mic a cab from for live work) but I'll also do the other option as 4 ohm loads with the TKS 8 ohm cab (at the same distances). It makes sense if I have everything in situ I may as well do multiple variables before I pack it away. That way if there is a variable induced by me it'll be the same on all (i.e. recording level, positioning etc). Sound source - Oooooh I'm with @Phil Starr that an amp might flatter a particular cab, which might be my choice of cab/amp BUT it might not be everyone's ideal partnership. However, I have the option to use my Thunderfunk (550w solid state), EBS HD350 (250-350w solid state), Tech Soundsystem Blackcat (1000w valve preamp [tonestack EQ] C;donkey D power) or my Fishman Plat Pro preamp pedal which is quite neutral sounding into the power stage of one of the above amps. I do have other preamps (Tech 21 Sansamp, Tonebone Bassbone, BBE Acoustimax) but I think they are more coloured. Any amp setting would have to be on neutral, which is 12:00 for everything except the Blackcat (I'll need to research Tonestack again), with no preshape engaged (EBS EQ can be bypassed which I need to investigate what that means). I'll use a bass which most folk will be familiar with as opposed to something like a Bolin or obscure Warwick; possibly my Sandberg P bass in passive mode or the Sandberg Jazz (passive Aguilar pups). Played into a Looper to ensure consistency and using my Rode Condenser mic set at the same relative position in front of each driver. All cabs have a tweeter but I 'think' for the close mic, I'll position it away from any horn or driver with horn included (the top driver on the TC cab); for the 2m recording I'll position the mic at the centre of the actual cab as opposed to driver or tweeter. Lots of variables and still some things I've got to think through including the actual recording process et al. Off to do something constructive... these dishes won't do themselves!

LOL That has been going through my head all night... maybe in April I'll try this scenario. You are also correct I'm not talking of measuring or analysing; my initial thought was 'How different will each cab *combination of cabs* sound if close mic recorded?' I know they sound quite different sat in front of them but if they were recorded and no clue given, could another bassist readily identify a 10/12/15" driver? BTW I'm confident the answer is NO, however a lot of folk will declare they want X, Y or Z size driver to get more top/mid/bottom.

Thinking it through that would be the most scientific way Bill but most cabs are used in rooms so maybe that isn't an issue for a bit of 'fun' so long as I follow your other guidance (no other cabs, same position).

Oooof that throws up some questions. Outdoors OK. Mic 2m - 10m from a cab... am I going to need to crank the gain to silly levels to get a good signal? Mic 45 degrees off axis @ 2 - 10m AND outdoors - do I leave the gains where they are or do I try to match to on axis levels? Biggest issue though is that I'm imagining that I'd need to run my amp at a very rough approximation of what I guess 100w is... I've no way of measuring if my amp (likely my Thunderfunk 550) was outputting 100w at any given setting on the input or output gains.

Pleased the Lekato has worked out. As I said earlier, for the money it has to be worth a try. re. distance from router. I assume your Aux out that you feed is XLR; can you not simply get an XLR to minijack lead and site it away from the router? I actually run an XLR across to my side of the stage so that the Lekato is nearer to me.

Band A - Guitarist/vocalist has used digital modelling since forever (no backline) and uses IE all the time. He has confessed he just accepts that IE sound may not be as good as maybe a quality amp/cab but he is just happy to get a good sound out front. Drummer can/does use IE as he does theatre/pit work but is actually happy enough if I use a monitor on a stand at the side of the stage. Band B - Same guitarist as 'A'. Vocalist uses a combination of on-stage monitor amp/cab + IE. Drummer will only use a side fill monitor. I have my bass in the desk feed if I want it but as I have it independently fed via the same source as the desk feed, it makes more sense to just balance this. Oddly balancing my bass v's other instruments isn't an issue. I have the feeling of a disconnect with my environment which I can only relate to say listening to a good quality hi-fi or AV system v's sitting with headphones on. I never gelled with the KZ10s as they were not a good fit for my ear canal and I never got a good seal (yes lots of different size, shape and compounds used) added to which the bulk of the units outside of my ear seemed to drag the IE down/out. The IE100 are massively better for fit + I prefer the tone of them, despite them being single driver v's 5 drivers in the KZs. The Sennheisers are the reason I've come back to try this again but I will be using analogue tone shaping pedals to get what I want not captures, models, IRs etc. Bass tone out front I have left well alone, my concern is my enjoyment of my tone on stage. I accepted a long time ago that 90% of an audience couldn't tell a chicken from a Cello never mind a good P bass tone to a Jazz. So if the engineer is happy and I don't hate it, I let be; hopefully by supplying the desk with a tone based on me, my bass and whatever tone-shaping pedals I use, then it will be what I expect.

Not tried backbeat or P&D but I could look at it. I started with the KZ10 budget IE via Behringer P2 but I also trialled X-Vive unit and a set of AKG 'headphones', which identified an early issue with the digital desk and some presets. I've had issues with the whole fit, size and weight of the KZ10s so I've since bought Sennheiser IE100s to see what they do and already the fit/seal is massively improved. Yes the band(s) are using IE with quality feeds into the desk from Helix, Fractal etc so no issues with it being terrible DIs from cheap amps. The desk gives us 4 independent Aux outs so each band member is allocated one (always the same one so you should be able to set and forget) and has access to set the respective levels for drums/bass/guitar/vocals to their desired level. I take this feed (sans bass) into the Rolls and a separate line from the bass preamp/pedals into the rolls; reason for this is so that I can quickly/easily tweak the bass level relative to the band mix for my IE very quickly without need to access a digital interface. The added bonus is that should anything go wrong with the aux feed I still have my bass into my ears. Wireless is something I have A/B with a couple of wireless sources and Behringer P2 but it isn't the source of any of what I feel are shortcomings. If I did think that a custom set of moulds and a £1000 wireless set would give me what I wanted I'd commit BUT if I can't even get close with what I am trialling then it could be that it just isn't for me. I should add that I've used ear plugs and custom moulded attenuated plugs for 20+ years and I have no problem with listening to program music using IE, it is simply the 'live experience' which isn't translating for me.

I have in my possession an array of cabs which I was going to record to assess / demonstrate their similarities and/or differences. Now none of this is going to be scientific or setting out to prove a point; purely that I have them and someone 'might' be interested in the outcomes. Genz Benz 2x12 NeoX - 4 ohm TC Electronic RS 2x10 (x2) - 8 ohm Aguilar DB 1x12 (x1 no tweeter x2 with tweeter) - 8 ohm TKS 1x15 - 8 ohm My initial thoughts are that I'll need to position the mic in the same reference point on all cabs (close mic, off-axis) and that I'll obviously feed the cab with the same amp on flat settings (not EQing to suit a particular cab); I think it would be prudent for me to use a recording of me playing (a looper might be easiest) to eliminate any variance in my playing. However, I started to wonder about the fact that some of the cabs have 2 drivers v's 1 driver and one of the cabs (Genz Benz) is a 4 ohm load. I could run a pair of TC cabs to get me 4 ohms, likewise a pair of Aguilars but the TKS would be stand alone so would I need to tweak the volume to get relative parity... but then I'd need to consider variance in sensitivity. I think as it is unscientific and for fun I just need to decide if I'm going to pair cabs where they match to give 4 ohms, with the exception of the TKS which will just have to suck it up OR I could do all 8 ohm cabs and leave the Genz Benz as is and see how that compares... thoughts/votes?

In short... THIS! 🤣 I've gigged 40 years + with maybe 39 of that going through some on stage rig that has either been just my backline monitor and/or FOH bass sound. I can't/won't over analyse that side of things as I've chopped and changed gear (for 'whatever' reason) over the years but some rigs I've kept for 5-10 years and some combinations have lasted a couple of gigs. As I say, that is a whole other conversation but ultimately I have to 'like' the sound coming out of the boxes so that it inspires me or gives me some feelgood factor; I'm not going to play bass and it sound naff for me regardless of it sounding superb for an audience. Fast forward to the last year or two; technology moves on, bands start to want to move in certain sonic directions and I'm happy to try. I tried to recreate the sound and feeling I get from amp/cab on stage via various means; pedals, preamps, profilers etc into monitors, IE and combinations of both. This included me capturing my amp and cab via a Kemper, which was a pretty faithful recreation of what I like/want. However the issue is that I'm struggling to get those things (captures, IRs, analogue/digital pedals) to give me that feeling, which I concede is almost impossible. I've had glitches like desk software architecture, poor ear/sound isolation, lack of ability to hear others easily (going into your phone/device mid song is not great) et al and though I'm not trying to recreate trouser-flap/heft, I would like connection with the bass and the other musicians! Actually in searching for the right words to convey what I'm missing or want to achieve, I think that word 'connection' is quite apt. I've always felt that while using amps etc the band have been a unit and connected, whereas using various other methods to achieve amplification of our playing AND monitoring ourselves, I've lost that connection. I've come full circle back to going from my bass to analogue pedals (possibly a whole other thread), with a feed from the pedals to PA (for FOH and other musicians to monitor from the desk) and a separate line out to a Rolls PM351 where I mix in an Aux feed from the desk with the vocals and guitar. I can then blend my bass with the desk feed in real time (assuming I'm happy with the mix I give myself of the rest of the band). I'm also including an ambient mic into the desk to try and capture some of the on-stage sound of the drums (just kick and snare into the desk) and audience. I've probably missed something but I'll come back to it. LOL

I'm using various ways of amplifying myself depending on band (I'm in 3) and situation. When using a monitor FRFR I use my QSC K10 (not 10.2) on a speaker stand, head/ear height at the side of the stage; the ease with which you can hear yourself/the band is superb, defo zero 'boom'!

This has returned to me!

The guitarist who does sound in our band has never understood why I take one feed straight from my preamp pedal into my Rolls PM351 and take an Aux from the desk for the rest of the band... it hasn't happened yet but on the day my feed from the desk goes shonky, I'll still have a nice bass signal.

I really do need to play it more!

Good point. I know I've chopped and changed during my trials, so there's no continuity but there have been times when I've not used the Lekato and there have been issues elsewhere. I'm back to using it again so I'll take more notice (trialling new IE with Behringer P2 and/or Lekato wireless).

I was aware of the latency but it is the only digital in my chain, so not noticeable... to me! 'IF' I was serious about wanting the best and everything was crucial, I'd not be looking at this but as a tester/taster it has proven to be well worth the £60. Our guitar player has the X-Vive and he has more drop out than I do at x5-6 times the price + if something is going to clash with desks and/or routers it tends not to be the Lekato. Just anecdotal.

For about £60 the Lekato system 'does the job'. I'm defo not saying it is a solid piece of kit that will stand up to years of road use, especially if you aren't careful, it ISN'T. However, for a toe in the water it is absolutely fine, especially if you are unsure. A few people have detected a little distortion (I can't) but it could be dependent on other equipment. I'll stress that it is light weight and plastic but it does what it says on the tin. https://www.amazon.co.uk/LEKATO-MS-1-Transmitter-Automatic-Performance-Receiver/dp/B0B9W5S4N8/ref=sr_1_1_sspa?crid=2MPTLFFLZ91OR&keywords=lekato%2Bwireless%2Bin%2Bear&qid=1704485289&sprefix=lekato%2Bwireless%2Bin%2Bear%2B%2Caps%2C81&sr=8-1-spons&sp_csd=d2lkZ2V0TmFtZT1zcF9hdGY&th=1

Indeed! The relationship between the 12th fret (top horn hang position on a P bass as a benchmark), top horn length and bridge position give you that 'throw' to where the first fret is.

The 12th fret phenomenon... and nobody has mentioned the Warwick Thumb; now that is a position thrower! re. the Steinberger hook - Ned used that to great effect on his collaboration with John Bolin on the original NS bass. The best bit is that it is designed to swing/fold away so that it doesn't get in the way when not in use on a strap.

Not a great deal more than £100 (I know it is a slippery slope but...) the Sennheiser IE100 (£85) + Behringer P2 (£49). I liked the KZ10's but the physical size/shape/bulk didn't suit my ear and I couldn't quite get a good seal (others manage fine); whereas the IE100 were a lot more comfortable, sealed and had a more pleasing tone. You could go wireless with the Lekato units but we really are heading off into territory where you may as well read every word of the IEM Bible.

In order to persevere with going IE and zero backline I've just purchased the Sennheiser IE100 (wired) IEs via Amazon @ £83 and 'for my ear shape' these are proving a revelation over the Linsoul KZ10s. The seal/isolation is clearly improved even just with the standard foam bud that came fitted (I trialled 6 different buds with the K10s none sealed well or felt comfortable); the low profile and lighter weight also make them easier to wear. I'm aware that they are a 1 driver unit as opposed to the 5 driver of the KZ10 but the overall sound is more pleasing to me when using program music. A quick test with my bass (into the Mooer P1 and a Behringer P2) seems to indicate I'm getting smoother bass and less harsh top end. Oddly before the IE100s I didn't think the KZ10s had any harshness. I'll know better next weekend at the gig if the overall mix sounds better. Just my initial observations.

Live - it worked really well! A very simple set up which consisted of my bass into the Mooer with the out going to a DI box > in-house PA (aux feed to a monitor for me). I didn't need to switch between core sounds or add effects for any songs, so it was a case of using the one preset which I created from scratch, which in fact was the last one I used in the house so I could have turned up at the gig with no phone/interface and it was the preloaded sound ready to go when I powered it up. The sound guy was super impressed and he kindly did a few checks for me to see how it's performance rated. There was zero audible background/baseline noise when not actually playing; his display showed a 'tiny' amount of signal in the low end but he said it categorically couldn't have been heard and he'd not have even noise-gated it out. He does sound for bands 3 times a day all weekend and he is going to investigate buying one as it looks the ideal back up tool for multiple needs.

Well it looks like operator error! Switched the device on, went into the app and within 5 secs I found the global output turned 'off'! With the usual gig stresses (inc a dep drummer), I obviously overlooked the 'obvious'! LOL Effort #2 today then!

Mooer more flexible EQ and effects include in a tiny box... but it is difficult to disagree.

You think it was maxxed?