Pirellithecat

Right ..... Sound Meter app installed - I'll measure on stage and FOH volumes just to check that it is really loud and not me being a sensitive sort of chap. I know it won't be very accurate, but it'll give an indication. I'll ask the experts in the band what they consider loud before I do it and share the results. I'd be very surprised if we're not in excess of 120dB on stage ..... let's see.

Well - 2 guitar amps - I think its a 40 Watt Marshal Combo and a Friedman JEL-20/Marshall ?? via a 2x12 Marshal cab - so at face value not too loud. But they are ........... (My Genzler 800Watt Magellan via a 15/12inch Mesa rig rarely get above 10 O'Clock on the volume, but even that in small spaces is LOUD!) To put this into context - we use RCF 932's and a RCF 705 Sub. The Sub's just ticking over but the volume on the Tops is pretty much full at most gigs. So, I'm embarrassed to say we are just too loud! I've enough info to make a stab at solving some of the on stage volume issues and am negotiating within the band. Controlling the overall volume will come but it'll take a while. I'll check out the Paul White pocketbook - thanks.

The issue with drums is that whilst very loud overall, the Kick drum and to a lesser degree, the Snare, benefit from reinforcement. It is odd, but the volume of the band seems independent of these 2 aspects to the extent that, even in smaller venues, the reinforcement benefits the overall sound. But yes, we are too loud, certainly on stage and possibly in the "auditorium". I'm working on it..............

What would you say the differences are between the 800+ , TT800 are to the WD 800? I saw a band using a Subway 2x15 with the WD800 over the weekend, and I have to say it was "the sound" I have in my head. I've played the same venue and of course my memory may be a bit dodgy but it sounded far better than my set up. I guess it could be talent though!!

Pardon?

Update - Whilst waiting for the ABC control the 25K tone pot arrived. Expecting the ABC tomorrow so I thought I'd check out the available space in preparation for routing out a battery box etc. Being one for instant gratification I bunged the tone pot in anyway just to see ......... Bloody Hell! Just wasted the afternoon playing my part modded bass .... it's transformed. The tone knob now actually makes a significant difference (to the, er, ... tone..) and the insertion loss, whilst still there, is diminished. So far only played via 'phones, but its a real difference. If the ABC control achieves the predictable blend that I'm after, this bass will be an absolute killer. Just got to be patient though .... I could easily transform it to firewood with a router ....... ( and yes I expect incoming remarks ....) 😅

And what's this "Set List" malarkey?🙄

Ah - most of this thread seems more about intellectual integrity, moral worth, of nicking other peoples songs rather than the legality of ripping off copy-right. The PRS point seems to put the latter to bed so we're just left with the intellectual moral worth points. I'm sure it's been said, but, as songs are probably largely the product of one or two creatives in a band, it follows that the rest of the band are effectively "covering" the song anyway. I guess many bands are effectively cover bands these days - Dr Feelgood still perform but have no original members. I guess if all Covers Bands are parasitic then session musicians are equally parasitic?? I used to play in a band of entirely original numbers. The vocalist would not sing any covers as it was beneath him. However, all the songs he sang were written by the singer/songwriter of the band. I would argue therefore he was infact singing covers! And as for traditional music/musicians ............... Disappointing isn't it.

Cover bands are parasites in the same way as actors performing plays by Shakespeare (or other). They do not pretend to be the originators of the material but often add their own interpretation. They may be performing at the RSC or the local theatre group, may be good or not. So pretty similar to cover bands or even, perhaps orchestras. Discuss 😅🫢

Thanks for spending the time helping out everyone - appreciate it. Some good suggestions which I'll try to get adopted. The FOH sound is probably the least of my worries as I already pre-set all the sensitivities of the mics (vocals and drums) before the gig, so I don't usually have to fiddle with those. Ditto the EQ's which are mostly pre-set with venue tweaks as necessary. It's the onstage stuff which is the difficult bit. And whilst it might be a case of the excellent being the enemy of the good, unless I can hear what's going on, I find it difficult to enjoy playing. The real weakness is that when someone pink torpedos-up the rest of the band can't really work out what's going and it's a bit of a vicious cycle. And it get's too loud = feedback. But some good take-aways from this thread which I'll try to implement. And yes, putting guitars etc through monitors might sound a bit daft, but they only go to me and the drummer, not the guitar players. The only way to make progress in the IEM crusade is to get all the instruments into the mix. If I can make it work, then the drummer may well follow and then ... who knows!

Thanks Jakester. The choice of Ear plugs is problematic - the guitar player is pretty set with what he uses - not sure what they are but not cheapy foam bungs. Drummer really just wants "cheap" so varies between foam and etymotic "knock offs". IEM's would sort this problem. Like the idea of a speaker stand for the drum monitor - I'll push this, as he could use my monitor which can be stand mounted if I can't get him to use IEM's. Like the idea of picking up the ambient sound and have a spare unidirectional mic (possibly two) I'll have a play! It's really odd that the other members of the band don't see any link between what they do and the ability to get decent sound quality, on and off stage. It's made worse when having seen "competitor" bands😅 they come back and say "T'Other Band and Vibes sounded really good" - how do they do that?" So I suggest ..... "could it be the quiet stage, having everything in the mixer, IEM's or sensible use of monitors, not too loud" to get the inevitable response , "yeah but ............ (insert appropriate excuse)". Anyway slowly slowly catchee monkey.

And yes, of course, agree to all requests from band , but ignore as necessary!!! 😁

In terms of gain we tend to keep everything in the "intermittent" green LED area - maybe I should tweak that up a bit? The Mic users are mostly OK in terms of technique, save for the occasional holding of the mic bulb!! The drummer's mic has an on off switch so it's only on in tracks where he sings. I wonder whether the use of Ear defenders contributes to the loud stage and, as a result, monitor feedback?. The guitar cab is on the floor (for some guitar voodoo reason) and the guitar player uses ear plugs so he's not really aware of the true volume on stage. To him, the vocals seem quiet in the monitors so wants them turned up (even asks for the bass to be louder on occasion!). The drummer is also using ear plugs and from his standpoint he's not too loud (given that everyone has now turned up). He has tried IEM's twice, but doesn't like the "detached sound" - although pretty much everything is in his monitor feed. I do ask whether the sound is any clearer via the ear plugs, but patience is needed. He also sings and his mic/monitor is a major cause of onstage noise and feedback. I'm experimenting with IEM's rather than a monitor, but so far I'm not getting on that well with them although, at least, the left one acts as a drum suppressor! Currently, the Guitar player and vocalist share a monitor placed centre stage. The drummer has a dedicated monitor. I have a monitor, but rarely use it so I wonder whether it might be better to use it for a dedicated monitor for the Guitarist(who sings). It's a bit more hassle on a small stage, and seems at odds with trying to reduce stage noise, but maybe 2 quieter monitors might work better than one loud one? Or is this a daft idea? From comments so far, Tweak monitors down after FOH up and running (if possible) Adjust gain at each stage a bit - probably a bit more at the start of the chain and a bit less at the end. Persevere with IEM's ? until IEM's split two vocal monitors? Get out front mid set Go check out other bands as a band. And ......... Thanks everyone.

Certainly looks like the height of the strings at the nut is high. Just checked my 2 fretted basses and the E String is significantly less than 1mm above the fretboard adjacent to the nut with the string fretted between the 2 and 3rd fret. Check out the official guidance on the internet, but yours looks a lot higher. Maybe the slots need adjusting or the Nut might be too high overall - both jobs might be best done by a guitar tech or at least someone with proper nut slot files. Good Luck! Be interested to hear how you get on.

Ha ha, Lighter sticks ... in your dreams! And guitards .... well, what can I say. Good point re. getting out into the audience mid set .... I am a bit shy though and it would mean walking/playing/avoiding the exuberant revellers all at the same time. But it's worth a try. In terms of mixer settings I'm always surprised how much we have to change eg Monitor levels at each venue. Other than that, with the exception of the amount of FX, as most levels are already above Unity, I have little to play with save the actual volume controls on the Speakers. In terms of gain - if each step in the journey from Mic to PA speaker adds more gain, (mic- initial gain - channel fader - main fader - Speaker) is it best to have the Speakers set at full allowing gain to be reduced in the preceding chain?

Thanks everyone. Good to get the feedback (no pun intended) on monitor vs FOH set up sequence - I'll make sure I'm more dictatorial about that from now on. In terms of EQ - I tend to have an element of "cut" at the outset and then go from there - to be honest though I don't really touch it as I don't get long enough out front to detect whether its optimal. And yes - the stress of getting the sound right during the gig does reduce the pleasure. But - I don't think the rest of the band would be as picky as me so I'd probably still be a bit stressy about the sound even if someone else did it!

Interesting comment re. Monitors first then FOH - I was doing this but suspect that doing the Monitors first means that the people "helping" to let me set the levels are actually trying to get the system loud enough for everyone without realising that most of the sound they need will come, indirectly, from FOH. There was clue from the guitarist who kept saying that the PA wasn't loud enough and me having to let him know that I hadn't actually turned on the FOH speakers at that point. My thinking now is to set the FOH volume and then ask the monitor users to let me know IF they need anything else. But, I really haven't a clue if this is the correct approach, so keep coming with suggestions. I guess one of the issues is feeling under pressure to get it all done with minimal disruption to the already present "audience" - hence rushing and fouling it all up!!

For my sins I have ended up as the "sound idiot" for my band! Of course everyone in the band is a sound expert, but someone has to provide the gear, set it up, get the volume right, get the monitors right and avoid feedback (FOH and Monitors) .... i.e. me. Then there's the intra gig stuff of - "can't hear", "not loud enough" , "feedback", "my Mics not working" etc etc. Whilst the least capable musician (me) is trying to remember and play the set! So - anyone any tips and does anyone know of any internet based tutorials on doing the sound from the stage whilst playing? (rather than a sound engineers view of the world where the sound can be done before the audience get there and the slider can be "ridden" during the set. We have an analogue mixer, which rather ties me to the stage and I'm learning as I go along. At the moment I tend to set up all the gear. Then - 1) FOH sound levels from the individual Mics plus drums 2) Check monitors and adjust individual levels across 3 monitors for 3 vocal mics, 2 guitars, bass, kick drum and snare. 3) Sound check with full band on a trial track, using all instruments/vocals - to do this I just take my bass for a walk in the audience and dash back and change stuff as far as I can to balance the sound. The key issues are getting monitors right without feedback, ensuring the FOH volume isn't too loud (in defiance of shouts of "turn the vocals" up!) and trying to control the onstage volumes. Only the Vocals and the drums go via the FOH at the moment the rest just go through the monitors - eventually I'd like to get more through the PA in order to reduce stage volume before I go deaf. I've started the IEM selling job - I use them intermittently, and the Drummer finally tried some last rehearsal, but it's a tall order! So any veterans out there with the best routine to get a great sound, keep everyone happy and not go deaf?

Yes - using Roundwounds. Unlike my other basses, this one doesn't respond well to EQ - I certainly reduce the low end and boost the mids, as you say, but all that really happens is it sound just as muffled, but "thinner" if that makes sense?? However, I do find semi parametric mids problematic as in controlling the things I want, a lot of the adjacent frequencies which I actually "want" get lost too. I am a simple chap though ........

Hi, I'm without my gigging bass for a few months so rather than buying a "new" bass, I'm trying to get my "spares" into shape! I have a very playable Made in Japan, Squire Silver Series which has a great 40mm neck which is a joy to play. But for gigging in a Covers band it just doesn't cut through - kind of muffled. I can't solve this with EQ-ing as I suspect the frequencies just aren't present from the bass. It's been round the houses in terms of mods (different pickups, different pots, different pot rating (250k/500k), different Strings, new Hipshot tuners, Gotoh bridge, String tree, etc) none of which seem to have fundamentally changed the sound so I've put it back to "stock" except the tuners and the pots. So 2 questions really. 1) Have I missed something that I should try? 2) Given the neck is so nice to play, is it worth trying it on a different body? (or could it be the neck itself which generates the dialled in tone?) Previously I've used it with TI flats for bluesy stuff and its fine for that genre. I'm reluctant to sell it as, compared to P basses I've tried recently, it is FAR nicer to play and the 40mm neck is great. I don't really want to butcher it in any way, either, as its a fine example of the series. (eg - Pick up route is fairly shallow so some replacement pickups eg Geezer Butler won't fit. Thoughts welcome.

Couple of comments. I suspect US Pubs are larger than the Dog and Duck. It is not the case (in the UK at least) that there is room for a sub as well as the drummer at most of our gigs. Last weekend, there wasn't room for the neck of the bass without hitting the Alabaster Lion's Head on the wall! Ditto at the previous gig (without the Lion's Head). The second point is that, in such small spaces it is common (routine) to have the PA close to the wall so I guess the sub under the Tops works in terms of boundary loading? A couple more comments Whilst our "on Stage" sound needs work, the sound out in the "audience" is pretty good and is definitely better with the sub (so says our Drummer's tutor). It may be that, given the low level of anticipated quality (in't Dog and Duck), the sub, used under the PA tops, works. And Finally! The issue with Subs behind the Mics (or even mic'd kick via drum monitors) is feedback, as the mic's (especially the Drummer's) pick up the low frequency "noise" giving very problematic deep resonant feedback. Difficult to work out what it is at first (omnidirectional?) but by a process of elimination (turning the drummer OFF!) that's what it is. I am not in any way technically competent and do not question the theoretical aspects of this debate. However, in the real world there are many factors which frustrate technical expectations ... I suspect this is one. Oh and Al said it much better and is far more emotionally intelligent than I (or is that "me"?) 🤪

Just for the record - in case anyone else finds themselves in the same situation. The EMG ABC, does NOT include the necessary tone pot. You have to buy one separately. This NOT the Active VLPF (@ £70+), but the EMG 25K Solderless Tone Pot (passive) @£15. Once I've finished modding my bass, I'll be sure to update this thread with the outcome i.e. does it work as intended. Might be useful for future reference. By the way, EMG have been excellent in terms of customer support - even offered to send me the tone pot FOC, (but as I'm in the UK, it didn't make sense to send one from the USA). Rapid, friendly communication and very helpful. Full marks!

Update. It's not the Active Tone pot I need ......... it's the 25k passive one. Which is Good News from the financial point to view.

EMG confirm that I will need the Active Tone Pot in combination with the ABC. So there you go - so, all in all, it ends up a pretty hefty upgrade for a "scrap" bass, but, I do like it, and I only have further mod "available" and that's to refinish it in Fiesta Red! Thanks everyone for you input.