Marlat

[quote name='risingson' post='965100' date='Sep 22 2010, 10:52 PM']It's also natural that a load of Sadowsky owners (which I'm guessing you are) would take exception having shelled out a fortune for a bass, only for people then to say Sandbergs as an example sound better.[/quote] Not to pick on you specifically, but this is the same silly assumption that comes up time and time again in these type of threads. Have a think about this: Why would a Sadowsky owner be upset if [b]you[/b] think a Sandberg sounds better? Anyone whos be playing music for 30 minutes knows that everyone has different tastes in what they think is the "gold standard" of tone. The reality is that Sadowsky owners (like the owner of any other type of bass) probably think that the brand of bass they play is the best one for [b]them[/b], but why would anyone in their right mind assume its the best one for everybody else? That makes no sense. Think about it, if there was only one "right" bass, then everyone would play that single brand and it would cost millions. What's really important is that the player thinks that the Sadowsky sounds better. If they didn't think it sounds better then they would have been foolish to buy it. But, do you really think anyone could convince another person that a different bass [b]should sound better to them[/b]? I have rarely, if ever, seen a Sadowsky owner get upset because someone thinks another bass sounds better. In fact, for most Sadowsky fans, its better that other players don't "get it" (so to speak) because it keeps the prices of Sadowsky basses down and the quality up. Most Sadowsky players covet the quality of the construction, the consistency and the tone together. If demand keeps increasing you will either see longer waiting lists, higher prices or a drop in quality. None of them are desirable to Sadowsky owners. Quite frankly its better that more people think they are overpriced parts basses. What is silly is the stupid comments like "silly money for a production bass" or "its not worth it". Why? Because they are completely subjective values. You'd have to be pretty self absorbed to think that you have some kind of insight into the universal worth of any bass. The value depends wholly on what the market and any individual play is willing to pay and whether they think its best. People put different values on different things. I don't personally see the value in AC basses - not because they arn't just as well built as Sadowsky's, but because I prefer the more modern active jazz tone and AC basses go after the vintage jazz vibe. I have tried a number of Sandberg basses and while I found the sound to be fine, I wasn't as impressed by the quality as I have been with the basses that I own. Now, thats not a dig on those basses because the basses I own are more expensive than Sandbergs and I expect them to have better quality and attention to detail. At the end of the say its all relative, is a bass "worth it"? It kinda depends on how much money you've got. There are people out there who can buy a Sadowsky like someone can buy an SX. OTOH, if you are saving up for a bass you want to get the best one [b]for you[/b]. If its a Sadowsky then buy the Sadowsky, if its a Sandberg then buy a Sandberg. It would be stupid to play a Sandberg, think it was better than a Sadowsky and buy the Sadowsky. OTOH, it would be equally foolish IMO to not buy the tool that works best for you (if you can afford it) jsut because someone random internet dude thinks something "isn't worth it". Hell, if I posted my opinion on what basses I didn't think were "worth it" to me personally in a thread most of you would be lighting pitchforks at the gate!

[quote name='Chris2112' post='964306' date='Sep 22 2010, 11:51 AM']If you want to be pedantic over the word "bad" and "unspectacular" then no, it's not what he said, I took the point to it's logical extreme. I did this because I consider myself to be somewhat discerning over what I'll play and I don't have time for anything that is "unspectacular" in any sense.[/quote] To be correct, what you did was raise a strawman argument, not took it to its logical extreme. I have never heard someone proclaim that Sadowsky sound "bad" but then sound excellent in a mix. When I have seen people make that statement its usually along the lines that on its own a Sadowsky sounds like an active J-bass, but that their true strength is their ability to cut through a busy mix whilst retaining that sound. Something that a lot of basses fail to do. Indeed, my experience with Alemic's electronics is exactly that - in order to get them to cut through in a mix you need to adjsut them away from their natural tone to a more cutting town (I have Alembic signature electronics in one of my basses). In any event, we get it, you don't like Sadowsky basses because they are j-bass copies. That's cool, you don't have to buy one. Why all the need for the haterade? Did Roger Sadowsky steal your milk money at school?

[quote name='Chris2112' post='964249' date='Sep 22 2010, 11:14 AM']I can't say I've ever known a bass to sound good on it's own and bad in the mix or vice versa. A good bass sounds good, period. If it doesn't sound good all the time, why would you buy it when there are so many basses that can?[/quote] That's not what he said though, is it?

[quote name='Musicman20' post='964233' date='Sep 22 2010, 11:02 AM']In the USA, perhaps this is so, and I can see why they are more popular because they seem to be getting a better overall financial deal on the basses, and obviously closer contact with the company.[/quote] I am not sure I get your point here. Sadowsky has a fixed pricing structure so you pay what you pay. The prices are in USD and then its the exchange rate that determines what you pay in the UK (which, unsurprisingly is out of Sadowsky's control). WHen I bought my two Sadowsky's the exchange rate was $2 to the GBP - we were getting a better deal than people in the states when you compare relative incomes. (I have since sold one). You don't get a better deal in the States, you just don't have to worry about the exchange rate. Right now, for example, the AUD is about 0.95USD. That is a stonkin deal for Aussies looking to buy US goods as traditionally the AUD is about $0.5-0.7USD. As for contact, I have always got a reply from the Sadowsky shop within hours whenever I have emailed them and they always pick up the phone. Half the time, Roger answers. I've had the same experience from MTD as well (except that Mike always answers there). [quote]Ship them over here, pay VAT, customs, shipping or pay a little extra and get one from one of the outlets, and THEN it isnt such a great deal. I realise we suffer quite a bit with most products like this, but when the product is already high end, its an extra sting.[/quote] I don't really see it as a matter of not being a good deal, its the price of entry if you want one. If you are happier with another brand thats cheaper, buy that. If you don't want to pay customs (which is bugger all on an electric bass, the main cost is VAT which you do pay here as well on locally produced basses) then buy local or used. I just don't see the big deal. [quote]Dont even get me started on how I view the way these basses are sold here. That winds me up even more. Something like this needs a bass specialist, not a general guitar/music shop as most the workers and normally guitarists with no or very little bass knowledge. Obviously the Bass Gallery are the best to contact![/quote] I like to buy my basses used or direct from the manufacturer. Saves dealing with third party stores.

[quote name='Musicman20' post='964222' date='Sep 22 2010, 10:47 AM']Read it again. Its not like I havent played one. I have played 3 or so. I even went back in to see if it was just the amp etc causing me to wonder what the fuss was about.[/quote] See above, its edited out. [quote]I dont understand the comment about not being able to afford one. Is that aimed at me? I looked into buying one of these (yes a NYC and a Metro) and I even thought about going over there and having a holiday at the same time. Anyway, thats pointless arguing whether someone can or cannot afford one, and again is just being a little bit patronising to not just myself, but anyone who reads this. I dont like it when for no reason people start being overly aggressive on here. Its the internet, not real life. A forum like this doesnt normally have such comments.[/quote] There is nothing aggressive in my posts, just read them with a smile, that's how I am posting them. I'm talking the the abstract, not specifically about you. The point is that if Sadowsky basses rock your world more than any other bass then the price to entry is the price they charge. If there is another bass that does a better job for you, buy that bass whether its costs more or less. Why waste time posting about how a bass is "overpriced" on the internet if you arn't going to buy the bass anyway. We are musicians, we should buy the tool that works best for us whether its a £3500 Sadowsky or a £300 SX. [quote]Waiting list....? Virtually all companies bar the big production companies like Fender have waiting lists. On contact with Lakland a month ago, they have a 4 month waiting list on their 44-60 Jazz bass. Ive even known Fender to have waiting lists at some points.[/quote] If a company has a manageable waiting list that the market will bear then its a good indicator that they are priced well in their market. That's a supply vs demand basic.

[quote name='Chris2112' post='964217' date='Sep 22 2010, 10:43 AM']But he's saying he has played one? At the end of the day, it's not the fact that it's a £3000 bass that I find silly, it's the fact that it's a £3000 [i]jazz[/i] bass. For that kind of money I'd expect at least an Alembic Mark King signature! [/quote] I think there was a typo when I replied to the original thread omitting the "not". I have edited that out now the OP has edited his post. As for your pricing arguments, see my post above. In summary: your opinion on the matter is irrelevant (and I don't mean that to be insulting, just that you're clearly not the target customer for a £3,000 jazz bass).

[quote name='Musicman20' post='964202' date='Sep 22 2010, 10:23 AM']Supply and demand, yes. No objection. Price? Well, I can say what I like. Its not like Ive not played one. Its seems as soon as someone touches a nerve, (for instance if there is a NYC or Metro owner reading) we all have to endure yet another attack on our opinion.[/quote] On the "theoretical" pricing debate, my point is simply that bass pricing is whatver the bass pricing is. You can be as upset as you like about the fact that you can't afford it or that, even if you could, you don't think its worth it. However, that's basically irrelevant because its clear that the market thinks the basses are worth it. There are plenty of bass companies that disconinue models etc because the market thinks those models arn't worth it. OTOH it seems pretty silly to me to bang on about how a bass with a 6 month+ waiting list "isn't worth it" (and i'm not suggesting that's what you are saying). To be honest, I would struggle to be able to justify buying another Sadwosky at their current prices, but I don't think they arn't worth it, I just realise that I can't afford what they cost. There is a big difference. NOw, there are some basses out there that I do think charge more than I would be willing to pay for a bass, but I don't think that they arn't worth it (they also have waiting lists), I just appreciate theres a difference between my valuation of the bass and the markets valuation. Put simply: if something's overpriced it won't sell, if it sells, whether or not you'd be prepared to buy it is irrelevant to pricing consideration and I see little value in posting in a thread complaining about price if you wouldn't buy it anyway.

Its only bloated and well tread because some people seem incabable of understanding the basics of supply and demand and the internet gives them a venue to display this lack of understanding

This thread makes me laugh. Seriously, the value of the basses has nothing to do with whether they are "production" or "non-production" whatever that means. It has nothing to do with whether you can buy a "small boutique builder in the East End custom fancy topped modern hippy sandwich J bass inspired with your name inlayed in the fret board bass" for half the price that's (IYO) just as good. Its simply a matter of supply versus demand. And, notwithstanding what a few internet bassists think about whether a Sadowsky bass (or any other brand, for that matter) is "worth the money", the fact is that they sell for the price asked and they sell in quantities that mean there is a waiting list for custom order NYC's and Metros. Its easy to forget that despite the internet bassist hype, Roger's basses reputation was built on the back to his set-up and repair work in NYC in the 80's and the use of his basses by studio pros in NYC in the 80's and 90's. I'd be willing to be a large part of the Sadowsky user base still remains working pro musicians. The fact that his basses are the choice of pros is what keeps the demand up there and hence the prices. You can't isolate any one factor as to why they are the choice of many musicians, but its probably a combination of the fit, finish, sound, consistency, customer service etc. It wouldn't matter how the basses were made so long as all the things that make them great and desirable are still there. Clearly they arn't desirable for everyone otherwise everyone would play a Sadowsky. That's the beauty of having choices. But, the idea that they arn't "worth it" judged by some arbitrary standard of whether they are "production" or "parts" of "hand made" is just laughable. The value of these bassees is based on what the market is willing to pay for them. The reality is if they wern't "worth it" in the universal sense, they wouldn't sell. There is a waiting list, what does that tell you? For the record, you can apply this to any bass brand.

Personally I'd rather the bass that felt and sounded right for me, regardless of how original it was.

[quote name='Musicman20' post='963269' date='Sep 21 2010, 01:25 PM']Jees guys calm it! Dont get so defensive! We all chase the same thing on here I personally think at those prices, you are best off with a Sei, or an Alleva. Without a doubt. The NYCs arent everywhere here, but they are in the USA. I dont see, despite the fact I dont like how Lakland finish off their basses, why their is such a price difference on a fairly mass produced Metro cf to a Lakland Skyline. All made elsewhere then checked and fitted in the USA. Not a problem with that, but I dont see why they cost so much?! I wouldnt mind, but when I emailed them a fair while back, I felt slightly miffed at the somewhat sharp and slightly off responses. Made me realised If I had a problem with one once Id bought it, Id not feel happy complaining.[/quote] A few things: 1. Roger's dealers arn't supposed to sell NYC's. NYC's were traditionally only available directly although I understand that occasionally he will sell some of his "in stock" basses to international dealers to onsell at the same prices. The point is, NYC's arn't available everywhere in the US, they are only available directly from the shop. The only ones you can get from dealers are used. From time to time there are exceptions, but unless his policy has changed recently, they are rare. 2. Why do they cost so much? Supply vs demand. Its kind of irrelevant if you don't think they are worth it. Lots of people clearly do and they are the ones buying the basses. 3. I've never had bad CS from anyone at the shop. Everyone has bad days though. My interaction with Roger over email and in person have always been excellent. I am sure if you compalined you would be treated just like any other customer.

[quote name='Chris2112' post='963153' date='Sep 21 2010, 11:46 AM']I think the real issue I have with them is that I've never been amazed with Sadowsky basses. I've tried a bunch of the Metros that have come through Guitar Guitar and quite frankly, there have usually been better Fenders in the shop! Similarly, having played the NYC basses I can see that they are reasonably well put together but definitely not something I'd ever dream of paying £3000 for! But I suppose that takes us back down the "what is a jazz bass worth" road...[/quote] Good thing there isn't a law that requires you to buy them then. Clearly there are enough people that are amazed with them that Roger still has a 6 month wait list for NYC's and has increased his staff over the last few years to meet demand. The "do I think its worth it" debate is pointless. They sell, people enjoy them, nobody forces you to like them...(apply that to any bass and move on with your life).

Pricing wise that's about spot on what you would pay if you imported that bass yourself. IOW, if its what you want, you won't get it any cheaper direct from Sadowsky. Current Retail on a base NYC Will Lee $3975 Add: Maple top (assuming its not "Master Grade"): $300 Add: Standard Sadowsky shipping charge to UK: $200 Total direct cost from Sadowsky: $4475 Current exchange rate (assuming you can get mid-market, you can't): 0.644 Cost in GBP: £2888 Add VAT and fees on import at 20%: £576 Total cost to your door in GBP: £3464 Basically, the additional cost of buying from that shop is about £35 and you get it shipped to you next day rather than having it sit through customs. Now, I can't comment on whether the price of Sadowskys is fair (but I own one), but that price in that shop is pretty darn good all things considered.

[quote name='Silent Fly' post='877654' date='Jun 25 2010, 06:32 PM']Thanks for your kind words Mark. It was a pleasure meeting you and have a chat about effects and signal processing. I am really happy to hear that you like your new [sfx] pedals. Regarding deej's question about the micro-rd (aka micro red dragon)... the micro-rd can produce fully saturated sounds but I wouldn't call it an aggressive overdrive. I was talking today with Mark about a pedal with a more aggressive distortion. Mark described it as “a distortion that begins where the RD ends”. I was thinking to a micro pedal with a Rat/DS1 distortion perhaps with a frequency-based clipping... what do you think?[/quote] As we discussed yesterday that sounds like a good idea. I would be inclined to add a contour control in there like the Aguilar to help shape the tone of the sound coming out. I was playing the fuzz a bit more last night and the way it retains the low end is amazing. I don't think I have heard another fuzz that does it so well. If the distortion circuit had the same low end retention it would be a winner!

Hey, I posted this on TB, but I thought I would share it here to since Max is a local! I just got back from a second visit to Max at SFX Sound's house and picked up some pedals that I had ordered recently and had a quick play through them and wanted to post some pics and comments. The pedals I have from Max are: Micro RD - (booster / overdrive) Micro Fuzz Ultra Tone - (tone enhancer) Micro Thumpinator Pics: And here's my full setup (that needs some reworking now I have these new pedals): Firstly, before I get to the pedals, I have to give huge props to Max for being one of the nicest guys I have interacted with! He is very friendly and accommodating of all my stupid questions about tone shaping and effects. He also helped my by modding my WMD Geiger Counter (Civilian Issue) to make it more bass friendly. He let me borrow a couple of pedals to test out as well. Basically a top bloke who I would encourage everyone to support. He really knows his stuff when it comes to electronics and effects and would have no hesitation in ordering more pedals from him. Now the pedals: [b]Micro RD[/b] - this was my first SFX pedal and I use it as a low gain overdrive to give me that little bit of breakup and warmth. It does the job perfectly. I generally set the volume at unity and then have the gain at about 2 o'clock and get a great warm breakup. There is almost no low end loss with the pedal (in fact, with any of Max's pedals that I have tried). I was looking at pedals like the SFT, Blueberry etc to get that low gain overdrive sound, but this pedal fits the bill perfectly, is much less expensive and is tiny. This is another plus of Max's pedals, they really are put into the smallest cases he can possibly get them in and they do maximise space on the board. [b]Ultra Tone[/b] - Max lent me this to try out for a couple of days and it has won a place in the "always on" spot on my board. It is hard to describe what it does, but I think its related to the Aphex Exciter / Submarine / BBE type of active tone enhancement pedal. Max might be able to add more detail about what it does, but basically it provides a great afttening of the tone and low end. It particuarly tightens up the low end when set to about 11'O'clock which is where I set it to. The range of tones is great, but it works so well with my FEA Growler that the two of the stay permanently on on the board. Highly recommended. Do not be fooled into thinking this is just a passive tone control, it is far from it! [b]Micro Fuzz[/b] - I really like this fuzz because there is no bottom end loss at all. I have the tone set about 11 O'clock on it and the gain at unity and the range of fuzz tones is amazing for such a small pedal. It doesn't matter how aggressive you set the fuzz, it still retains the low end so well. In fact, the only way to lose it is to wind the tone all the way up. Max based this on a Coloursound Bass Fuzz I believe. At the highest fuzz settings its quite aynthy, but I prefer it about 2 o'clock where its a but less synthy. Again, a great pedal in any sized enclosure, but given the tiny size it really does allow a huge variety of tones on a very compact pedal board. Two thumbs up. I haven't integrated the Micro Thumpinator into the set up yet, but will try and do that on the weekend when I have a reshuffle. I will jsut finish by saying that I can't recommend Max and the SFX pedals highly enough. He really does understand what makes a great bass pedal (ie no low end loss) and tailors his pedals to fit the bill. He doesn't compromise on quality and is very receptive to feedback. I am lucky that we live quite close so I can pop down to his "laboratory" and see what new stuff is on the horizon, but even without doing that, I would encourage you to give his pedals a try. Just by way of disclosure, I paid full retail price for all the pedals so I am not an endorsee or anything, I just found his pedals to be worth the plug!

Hmm, my finance is in Paris on her hens weekend that weekend, I may be able to make it. I am not sure how much gear I can bring, but here is waht I have: Ritter Roya "Casa Fronto" 5 String Sadowsky NYC PJ4 MTD 535-21 Mariyln MTD 535-24 Kennedy Custom 6 string with Alembic running gear 2x Accugroove Tri112's 1x Markbass LM2 TCE Polytune FEA Labs Growler Aguilar Octomizer 3Leaf Groove Regulator Subdecay Quasar TCE Nova Comp SFX Micro-RD Big JOhn Granny Puker WMD Geiger Counter Civillian Issue Analogman Chorus w/deep Subdecay Echobox Eventide Pitchfactor Boomerang III Phase Sampler Radial Big City ABY Switcher I probably couldn't bring it all, but could bring a selection perhaps. Mark