Marlat

[quote name='Conan' post='970343' date='Sep 28 2010, 08:51 AM']Oddly though, that's not the attitude you extend towards others - you clearly worry about how they live theirs and have no qualms about telling them how to do so! A slight case of double standards perhaps?[/quote] I'm happy for people, like our friend the G String to offer advice. There is no guarantee it will be accepted. That's the same way I offer my advice. [quote]Doesn't seem to be much content about Fodera and their prices on this thread now....[/quote] Agreed, seems like someone just wanted to resurrect the thread this morning to troll. Seems kinda pointless to me, but hey, if that's what gets people excited... [quote]For what it's worth, my opinion on their prices is that I am happy for them to charge whatever they like! I have no interest in them or their instruments - except that I would love to try one, just to see what all the hype is about. I have no desire to ever own one. But maybe that's just inverse snobbery on my part? [/quote] I agree, but having played one I kinda get what the hype is about. Personally I think there are instruments that offer pretty much the same level of quality and craftsmanship for a lot less. But, if you want a Fodera there is only one way to get one and you have to pay... I can't see myself paying the cost of admission anytime soon.

[quote name='Vibrating G String' post='970334' date='Sep 28 2010, 08:36 AM']No, I didn't.[/quote] Well, you would say that, wouldn't you? [quote]But please, don't make the tens of thousands of posts here you do over there. You can live your life without correcting everything on the internet.[/quote] You let me worry about how I live my life. It's not that hard to avoid reading my posts, hell even you might be able to figure it out one day.... Now, put your little ePenis away and go back to arguing endlessly about animal cruelty or something. You've got nothing of value to add here.

[quote name='Vibrating G String' post='970304' date='Sep 28 2010, 07:46 AM']If he does will you try to?[/quote] Kinda painted yourself into a pretty silly corner with your phrasing didn't you? (yawn). Seems like there's plenty of chips on the shoulder to go around. Thanks for the feedback though. Its been duly noted and filed.

[quote name='maxrossell' post='969345' date='Sep 27 2010, 12:25 PM']That's just weird. You pay $500 for a pickguard because they guy who made it could have been doing something else at the time... That's totally bizarre. I mean, I see the point, but you see how that's kind of bizarre, right?[/quote] I don't really see it as bizarre because I work in a time unitsed environment. My time has a certain value that would be paid by someone if it was not being used by you. Therefore, you pay the going rate for my time. I'd imagine that's basically how Fodera came to their option pricing. If someone wasn't using Vinnie's time on making a pickguard, it would be being used to make a bass (as they have a 2 year waiting list). They arn't going to make their bass customers wait even longer for basses because they are now making $25 hand cut pickguards. That said, I still think their pricing is more than I would pay, but then again, I am not their target audience (at least not at the moment!)

[quote name='maxrossell' post='969288' date='Sep 27 2010, 11:37 AM']No, I don't. I was using hyperbole. However there are far smaller luthiers than Fodera out there charging one-third or less of what Fodera are charging for handmade custom basses of similar quality and spec. That said, I'm pretty sure they're making at least 900% profit on their pickguards.[/quote] WHilst I would probably have to get Jason from Fodera to explain it better than I could, I can imagine why they charge what they do for a pickguard: IIRC there are only 3 or 4 buidlers at FOdera (and I believe only 3 who actually work on the basses). If someone is spending an hour making a hand cut pickguard, that's a hour that they are not spending on a making an actual bass. I'd imagine that the pricing reflects the fact that the builder's time has been unitised and they now assign a time cost charge to each "option". So, for something like a pickguard, you arn't paying for materials at all, but for having a builder hand cut one. For me, I would rather have a third party cut the pickguards (or hire a more "low cost" worker to do tasks like that), but it seems clear that Fodera want to maintain their small shop feel and therefore have to proce accordnigly. Its a good thing no one forces you to buy a pickguard!

[quote name='maxrossell' post='969237' date='Sep 27 2010, 10:49 AM']I also agree with you that a Ferrari is a waste of money. The point I'm making is that when you buy a Ferrari you're not paying ten times what the car actually cost to make.[/quote] Do you honestly believe that Fodera are making a 900% profit margin on their guitars?

[quote name='maxrossell' post='969178' date='Sep 27 2010, 09:54 AM']I think the difference there is that all Ferraris are incredibly expensive, and in most cases the prices are more or less justifiable. Fodera's twelve grand bass, however, makes it somewhat of an oddity, if not entirely unique, and the consensus is that a lot of the items on that price list come with entirely unjustifiable price tags attached.[/quote] I don't understand how you come to the view that Ferraris are justifiably priced but Foderass are not. Can you explain? [quote]What's weird, if anything, is that people pointing out that given the circumstances buying anything that overpriced would be a completely idiotic move has been met by a few people saying, "yeah well you're just jealous of the people who can afford it".[/quote] Given what circumstances? If you don't know the circusmtances of the buyer, how can you say a decision is idiotic? You're saying its overpriced, but reality is its not overpriced, its just "priced" and you happen to not like the price. Why is it not overpriced? There is a two year waiting list and the basses are selling. If anything, its "underpriced" since they can't keep up with demand. Here's a thought experiment. If 2 years ago, you placed an oder for a Fodera at the Fodera pricing 2 years ago. You could take delivery of the bass today and sell it used for quite a bit more money than you paid for it 2 years ago (because of price inflation). There's a good chance if you ordered a bass today at their current prices you could do the same thing 2 years from now when it is delivered. Would it really be an idiotic move to buy somethign that, two yearsfrom now when its delivered, could be sold for more than what you paid for it?

[quote name='maxrossell' post='969160' date='Sep 27 2010, 09:38 AM']I suppose ultimately my point is first of all that "you'll be happier if you quit worrying about..." is a phrase that turns my stomach[/quote] Try a pepto bismol. Seriously, what else can you do but quit worrying? I'm being honest here. It is absolutely true that in life there will always be people with more than you. Who cares? Strive to be happy. That's not to say you shouldn't try to earn more money to make yourself more comfortable, but just that if you are constantly worrying about stuff that others have that you don't (or can't) have, then you will never apprecaite the stuff in your life that is good. [quote], and second of all that a system in which some people own so much money that they happily pay ten times what an object is practically worth to satisfy what can only be described as frivolity, while other people (who more often than not work just as hard if not harder) struggle to put food on the table, is totally revolting.[/quote] That's capitalism and it's hardly Fodera's fault. If you want to chagne that you will need to do that by either running for parliament or voting. I won't enter further into the "worth" debate only to say that an item is "worth" what the market is willing to pay for it. Just because you don't think its "worth it" is irrelevant to any assesment of an item's market worth unless you are the customer base targetted by the product.

[quote name='Musicman20' post='969159' date='Sep 27 2010, 09:36 AM']Oh heck. I think these 'price points' have become quite a heated debate![/quote] Yeah, it's ridiculous. If you really think about it, if I went into a Ferrari forum and started posting about how overpriced Ferarris are in how they are pointless and unaffordable it would, by definition, be trolling. Yet for some reason it seems to be a legitimate form of discussion to whinge about basses / amps / pedals etc that you can't afford. I could totally understand the whinging if there was some new Coalition government law implemented that said that everyone had to own a Fodera Anthony Jackson Signature with Titanium Bridge, a Millenia STD-1 Preamp and two Berg IP310s with a collection of DAM Pedals or they were not allowed to play bass. Yeah, in that scenario it would be totally justified to whinge about the price of that gear. However, its not the case. No one has to buy any bass gear at all. THose who choose to make money from bass playing need to buy sufficient gear to enable them to make money, but you can do that on a SX bass through a Beringer Amp if you want. Basses are by their nature luxury items and I can't fathom how people don't seem to understand that you will always have a scale of "cheap" to "expensive" in any category of unecessary (or for that matter, necessary) products. So long as you arn't forced to buy them, what does it matter if FOdera wants to make a £25,000 bass? Am I going to buy it? No, but what difference does it make [b]to me[/b] if someone does?

[quote name='maxrossell' post='969134' date='Sep 27 2010, 09:07 AM']I was under the impression that discussion forums are here for us to express our (frequently different) views without being told to shut up.[/quote] I'm not telling you to "shut up", I'm telling you that you need to get over this chip you have on your shoulder. You will be a lot happier if you just accept that there will always be people in the world who have more than you and there will always be people in the world who have less than you. Be happy with what you have, there is no need to poo poo what others have and what others don't have. [quote]It's my two months' wages, and probably around the average two months' wages of young unmarried people in the UK.[/quote] ...and to some people its a days wage. The point is, I never said you [b]should[/b] spend any percentage of wage on a handbag. You need to spend what you are comfortable spending. Can't afford it? Don't buy it. [quote]That's the point of the modifier "prohibitive". The fact that it's that expensive prohibits anyone but a select few from purchasing it.[/quote] By that logic everything is prohibitively expensive since there is always someone who has no money / well below the poverty line. Don't be silly, the reality is that [b]you[/b] think its prohibitive because you cant afford it. Luxury items are, by their nature, "unecessary" and relatively pricey (and by that I mean handbags, basses, sunglasses etc anything that is not necessary). Its just a question of the customer base for the product. [quote]Explain to me the point of a £2.5k handbag as opposed to a £20 handbag that looks identical and does the same job. If there's some salient point I'm missing here, I'm prepared to learn.[/quote] There is no £20 handbag that looks identical. A plastic tesco bag does the same job as a handbag and is about 5p. I assume that your significant over will be encouraged to only use plastic bags to carry things in? [quote]That's not strictly true, is it. For a start, £1 of Bill Gates' money is about 1/21,000,000,000th of what he has in the bank, which means that he generates at a very conservative estimate around £2,000 in interest per minute. I on the other hand am poor, so I don't earn any interest on my £1.[/quote] What can bill gates buy with £1 that you can't buy with £1? As I said, the purchasing power of money is fixed based on the market, the point you are trying to make is not that the value of money is relative, but the amount of money available (which differs from person to person) makes affordability relative. [quote]But that's beside the point. Money's value depends on what you spend it on. To some, a two grand handbag might sound like a bit of fun. To people who don't know where their next meal are coming from (and believe me, there are far more of them), a two grand handbag is like using gold leaf as toilet paper.[/quote] That operates under the mistaken assumption that if the person with the £2k handbag didn't spend the money on that handbag, it would somehow find its way to the person without the money. That's clearly not the case. If the person didn't have the £2k handbag they'd have something else or just another £2k in the bank and people who don't know where their next meal is coming from would still be no better off. Which comes back to my point, you will always be a lot happier in life if you quit worrying about the people with more stuff than you. They will always exist, no matter how much, or little, money you have.

[quote name='maxrossell' post='969124' date='Sep 27 2010, 08:41 AM']Assume away. So at what age will I start thinking it's okay to spend two months' wages on a small bag to keep keys and lipstick in? Will I come to the realisation as soon as I exchange rings with my spouse, or is it a more gradual thing? And what exactly is the realisation, is it the belief that it's okay to derive pleasure from owning things that are prohibitively and pointlessly expensive, or is it more to do with the value of money becoming relative when you have lots of it?[/quote] At a guess, in your case, I'd say its the age when you come to realise that everyone is different and you should worry less about what [b]they[/b] do and their lives and more about your own. Put simply: get over it. As to the mistakes in your post: Two months' wages on a bag: who said that two month's wages should be spent? Perhaps its just a weeks wage or a day's wage. What percentage of your wage is it okay for you to spend on something? Prohibatively expensive: why assume that anything is prohibitively expensive? Clearly its affordable to some people, just because you can't afford it (or don't think its good value, doesn't mean its prohibitively expensive to the client bass of the manufacturer). Pointlessly expesive: Just because you don't understand the point doesn't make it pointless. Vaule of money: They value of money isn't relative, its fixed £1 for me buys the same as £1 for Bill Gates. The ability to spend it is relative, it may be harder for me to justify spending £1 than Bill Gates, but the value is fixed.

[quote name='ezbass' post='969118' date='Sep 27 2010, 08:34 AM']And being that this is a US price list it will be net of tax![/quote] Its only net of tax if you buy in NYC (once the bass is shipped across state lines, its sales tax free). Its also worth remembering that they are the retail prices. IIRC the actual selling prices are about 30% less than the retail (depending on your dealer). Jason from Fodera posted on their pricing model on TB: [quote name='Managing Partner at FOdera']Now, to the discussion of price. If you check out the Fodera Club threads (use the search and read back through the first, second and third threads too), there has been a TON of discussion about our pricing. Believe me, if we could figure out how to keep our quality at the level we demand of ourselves and make them more affordable, we would. None of us are getting rich by making these instruments. We do it because we love it and, thank goodness, the market has been good to the brand and allowed us pricing that keeps the doors open. All of that said...some facts to help frame the discussion... 1. When you talk about the costs of a Fodera, please keep in mind that unless you start adding options, the street prices for brand new, custom built instruments range from $5,625 for a 4-string Monarch Bolt-on to $8,500 for any one of our 6-string Elite instruments. Those would be configured with an excellent top (non-solid on the Elite) and either EMG or Fodera pups. 2. The prices that everyone talks about above those levels are because players choose to add options. Yes, you could argue that stepping up to Fodera / Duncan (or Aero) dual coils is a "necessary option" in order to achieve a desired tone, but even those only add $450 (4-string) or $550 (5 or 6 string) to the Street Price of the instruments. 3. Because our instruments are all unique and handmade, the Street Prices listed in number one above include many possible customizations that are significant extras for other builders...you can choose your neck profile, string spacing, body size, body thickness, etc., all at no additional charge. We routinely have customers come in with their favorite playing bass and say things like, "when you build my bass, I want the neck to be EXACTLY like this one, I want the body to be 1/8" thinner than your normal thickness and I want it to be slightly smaller all around" and we do it...no questions asked, no charge. That is just part of crafting our instruments. 4. Options like solid tops (on our Elite instruments), exotic wood tops, 5-piece necks (or 9 or even 11 piece necks), matching wooden pickup covers, complicated inlays, Brazilian Rosewood FB's, wooden back plates, etc. all make the instruments highly personal, but they do NOT add to their playability and/or tone. Despite this fact, 90% of our customers avail themselves of at least some of these options. 5. In an age mechanization and factory out-sourcing, our custom instruments remain 100% born and bred right here in Brooklyn, NY and the average Fodera still takes over 40 hours of hand time to create. Think about that...GM takes less than 15 hours to build a car and we will spend an average of 40 hours building your bass. Foderas are not for everyone and that is okay. Foderas cost what they do because of the way they are made and the materials that we use to make them. But the "real" price for a new Fodera to make music is $5,625 - $8,500...not $12,000 or $15,000...unless you want them to be because you are building your dream bass and want it with options that are important to you. Many of our players see working with us to build their dream bass as both a reward for the thousands of hours they spent honing their art as well as the final piece of the puzzle in having an instrument that exactly meets their unique musical needs. We remain very thankful that we get to work with many wonderful people and that we love what we do...[/quote] Source: [url="http://www.talkbass.com/forum/showpost.php?p=9756138&postcount=47"]http://www.talkbass.com/forum/showpost.php...mp;postcount=47[/url] At the end of the day if you can afford one and you want one then buy it. If not, don't. Nobody forces anyone to buy these things and its rarely a choice between "buy the FOdera" or "give the money to the guy with the SX". To put the prices in comparison:

[quote name='maxrossell' post='969097' date='Sep 27 2010, 07:59 AM']People can't exactly help their circumstances, I suppose, but specifically in the case of a handbag, where there is literally no meaningful difference whatsoever between a £20 one and a £200 one, why [i]anyone[/i] would choose to blow £200 is completely beyond me.[/quote] I have to assume: 1. You are very young; and 2. You are not married. My wife has handbags that range in price from £50 - £2500. She uses them all and she buys them because she enjoys them. I have bass gear that ranges from pedals that cost £30 to basses that cost Fodera like money. I use them all and buy them because I enjoy them. You may think we have "blown" a lot of money on these things, but it doesn't always work that way. You can easily prioritise your life to spend the money on the things that bring you pleasure and avoid spending on things that don't. For example, my wife's car (I don't need to drive) is worth about £100 (seriously), she buys lots of clothing from H&M and Gap. OTOH, I don't buy clothing from theose shops, but I have far less clothes. In the end, its just a matter of how you choose to spend your money. We are comfortable, have savings and give money to charity. We also choose to spend [b]our[/b] money how we want. Get over it.

Why does anyone care how other people choose to spend their money? Let's be honest, if they don't spend it it's not like you are going to be given it.

[quote name='risingson' post='966817' date='Sep 24 2010, 03:36 PM']Definitely, but whilst that might be the case now it wasn't a few years back. It's also not as ridiculous as it sounds, yes it might be considerably more expensive now to go over and find a place to stay, flights etc. but it's really how much of an investment you consider the bass to be. Buying a guitar blind for that amount of cash is mental IMO if you haven't tried out at least a similar style of bass. For a lot of people I know who have done a similar thing and wanted an expensive U.S built guitar then such a purchase isn't to be made lightly. It's not the most practical thing to do in the world but a few extra hundred quid would sort you a flight and somewhere to stay for a day or two.[/quote] I was someone who went to NYC when the pund was at the $2 mark (in fact when I paid for one of my Sadowsky's it was at $2.10). However, it was never really worth the saving to buy it there new from Sadowsky rather than post it over. Here's a comparison at the 2:1 ratio: Sadowsky NYC (at the time): $3500 (1750GBP) SHipping: $200 (100GBP) Taxes & duties: $20% x 3500 = $700 or 350GBP Cost to your door: £2200 Flight to NYC: £300 return Taxi to/from JFK or Newark: £60 return Accomodation in Manhatten (really crap): $150 per night - lets say 2 nights: £150GBP Food, beverage & transport for 2 days: £40 (and that's eating really cheap in NYC) Total cost: £550 for a 2 day trip to NYC Add cost of Sadowsky £1750 Total: £2300 (and you risk getting stung by Customs on the way in). The one thing that made it worth buying Sadowsky's sight unseen was that they have fantastic consistency out of the box. Roger has a 7 day return policy (even for overseas users) and they have much better resale than almost any other bass I can think of. You can generally sell a recent model Sadowsky for anywhere between 75-90% of the new cost. Many basses take an almost 50% hit on the used market.

[quote name='Chris2112' post='966061' date='Sep 23 2010, 08:38 PM']And I think I at least agree with you on that one Mark! They are of course, open to criticism! Hence I shall wade in and be honest and truthful! They're overrated, under performing basses that are very middle of the road. They're not the best basses around, nor are they the worst. They are of course very popular, which if anything gives great insight on just how conservative bassists as a whole are, sticking with "old school" stuff like the jazz bass. Of course, they're a hit with session players, probably because session players are asked to constantly recreate a very small palette of overdone tones. I guess this is conservatism and stagnation at large in the American pop music world, which I'm sure we all agree has been in a state of relentless degradation for some time now. Quite frankly though, if you like playing what you play, then good. It keeps the great basses on the market for me ! [/quote] ROFL. I guess everyone is entitled to their opinion.

[quote name='risingson' post='965769' date='Sep 23 2010, 04:16 PM']I don't suppose this would be the right time to tell you about the bad experience I had with a MTD 535 a few months ago now would it? [/quote] Funnily enough I think more people dislike MTD than Sadowsky basses. MTD are quite player specific. Now...poop on my Ritter and I will be upset!

When all's said and done....MTD for the win! I have two and they poop on all of your basses! (runs and hides....)

[quote name='CHRISDABASS' post='965696' date='Sep 23 2010, 03:27 PM']............ i like Sadowsky's more than you do!! :brow:[/quote] Probably - I am still thinking about selling mine. I bet that's gonna blow their minds! (okay...now that's a little patronising) <-= actually so is that! LOL

[quote name='risingson' post='965671' date='Sep 23 2010, 03:04 PM']You're good at the patronising thing aren't ya? You've been doing it all thread and it's not particularly endearing.[/quote] If you say so. Ironically, now I think you don't know what patronising is. I wasn't treating you with apparent kindness when I said I don't think you know what "hyperbole" means, I was just telling you what I thought. Patroning you would be saying something like "did you look up that big word all by yourself?". Ya dig? [quote]Done arguing though, I think I've made my point and I don't think you've understood it.[/quote] Don't assume that because I don't agree with all of your points that it means I don't understand them. We both clearly agree that people should buy the bass they want. We both agree that you didn't dig the Sadowsky basses you played. We disagree with your general that Sadwosky basses are some kind of untouchable sacred cow that are imune from criticism. That assertion was, IMO, hyperbole.

[quote name='risingson' post='965646' date='Sep 23 2010, 02:41 PM']Hardly. You only have to take one look at a Talkbass post on Sadowskys to notice any criticism of current trending or popular brands is taken badly, and I do think this thread has become a pretty classic example of this.[/quote] I'm not convinced you know what "hyperbole" is. Here's the last major "blowup" thread on Sadowskys on TB.....TBH I don't really see your point: [url="http://www.talkbass.com/forum/showthread.php?t=687759"]http://www.talkbass.com/forum/showthread.php?t=687759[/url]

[quote name='risingson' post='965581' date='Sep 23 2010, 01:43 PM']So that's it then, Sadowsky once again remains immune to any detractors or any possibility that they are less than perfect [/quote] Hyperbole FTW.

As for the internet "fad" talk, Sadowsky's were "trending" on alt.guitar.bass in 1996 when I first started to post on there. That's over 13 years ago. I used to post with my name so if anyone doubts it you can seach for the posts. Even then I remember Roger actively participating in discussions about his basses (again people complaining they were overpriced parts assembled jazz basses). Since 1997 then I have never seen them be "out of fashion" as a choice for bass guitars amoung fans of the modern jazz bass. So yeah, you can call it a fad or internet hype, why not? But given they have been consistently invouge on the internet for at 13 years and even longer in the professional bass community, it does make me wonder when this "fad" will end. LOL.

[quote name='risingson' post='965483' date='Sep 23 2010, 12:22 PM']It would seem obvious that I would reply to something you've quoted as me saying. I've read all of your posts now and can conclude you're obviously a big Sadowsky fan. So then if you did read the rest of my post you will have noticed that I actually agree with you, people can buy what they want, and you're right, a few internet detractors shouldn't deter them from paying for something that they want.[/quote] As I said, I didn't take issue with the rest of your post, I just used your opening line as an example. If that wasn't stated clear enough for you, I apologise, but I am not sure how much more clearly I could have stated it. As for me being a Sadowsky fan, to be honest I rarely play my Sadowsky at the moment, I prefer my other basses based on what I am playing at present. I think of myself more as an "anti-internet sillyness" fan rather than a Sadowsky fan. Its just you seem to see a lot of coincidence of internet sillyness in threads about basses like Sadowsky, Fodera, Ritter etc. [quote]Well clearly they are, aren't they? The last few pages have been nothing but Sadowsky owners getting annoyed that their basses have been criticised by non-owners of Sadowskys.[/quote] I disagree, as I said, I don't think they are upset [b]by people criticing the basees[/b]. Well, I know I'm not upset by that. [quote]I didn't realise you could only have an opinion on Sadowskys only if you've owned one in the past.[/quote] If this is directed at me its just a straw man. I never said that.

[quote name='risingson' post='965464' date='Sep 23 2010, 12:03 PM']Did you read the rest my post at all or just the part where I said what you quoted me as saying?[/quote] Did you read the first line of my post? I was just using your statement as an example. I did read the rest of your post, but wasn't taking issue with the rest of it or you specifically. Hence the first line. I thought that was pretty clear.