What could have happened here??

[squire5]

[attachment=53078:Damaged_...aker_001.jpg]Hi guys.Long time no post.Long story short,I was using my Trace Elliot 4x10 cab at the weekend and I could here a rattling,flapping sound.The drive units are Eminence ME10s 100w,which have been in situ for MANY years.Heres what I found....On the TOP 2 drivers,the cones had become separated from the surrounds as in the pics (I've shown just 1 unit,the other was exactly the same).What puzzles me is this,why should just 2 drivers give up like this?The original drivers were replaced together approx 10 years ago.There seems to be some sort of a seam right around the cone at this point,reinforced with what looks like a black shiny substance.The other 2 drivers,I should add,are perfectly OK,and dont seem to have this pronounced 'seam' I would welcome any comments guys.Cheers.[attachment=53079:Damaged_...aker_004.jpg][attachment=53080:Damaged_...aker_002.jpg]



Just realised,this should be in Repairs.If someone could oblige.....Thank you.

Edited June 27, 2010 by squire5

[KiOgon]

[quote name='squire5' post='878713' date='Jun 27 2010, 11:09 AM'][attachment=53078:Damaged_...aker_001.jpg]Hi guys.Long time no post.Long story short,I was using my Trace Elliot 4x10 cab at the weekend and I could here a rattling,flapping sound.The drive units are Eminence ME10s 100w,which have been in situ for MANY years.Heres what I found....On the TOP 2 drivers,the cones had become separated from the surrounds as in the pics (I've shown just 1 unit,the other was exactly the same).What puzzles me is this,why should just 2 drivers give up like this?The original drivers were replaced together approx 10 years ago.There seems to be some sort of a seam right around the cone at this point,reinforced with what looks like a black shiny substance.The other 2 drivers,I should add,are perfectly OK,and dont seem to have this pronounced 'seam' I would welcome any comments guys.Cheers.[attachment=53079:Damaged_...aker_004.jpg][attachment=53080:Damaged_...aker_002.jpg]



Just realised,this should be in Repairs.If someone could oblige.....Thank you.[/quote]

I'd reckon they have been subjected to some high temperatures, in storage maybe, even in a car/van in the sun? Looks like the cone bond has failed & can only think 'that must have got hot!'

John

Edited June 27, 2010 by KiOgon

[thinman]

That is a bit worrying.

I had a similar thing with some hi-fi speakers. I had a pair of Heybrook HB1s on which the outside part of the cones appeared to perish - both went at almost the same time. My mother-in-law had a pair of them too and they went teh same way at teh same time - it's as though some materials have a self-destruct date! Maybe the glue in yours is similar!

[LawrenceH]

If it's a glue failure then you might expect the others to be close to doing it soon too...would it be worthwhile pre-empting this with some new glue while they're still held in place by the old stuff? I've never done a recone, I don't know how fiddly this sort of thing is. Good luck if you decide to try and fix it!

[squire5]

Thanx for that input guys.The cab is stored in my garage which is 'normal' temperature wise,and has been for years.As regards this 'glue' thing,the other 2 drivers dont appear to have anything like that.By that I mean that there's no visible signs of any,whereas on the damaged ones,there's a definite black shiny line where they've parted company.I can understand this happening if the glue failed,but if I was to follow Lawrence's advice,what sort of glue are we talking about here?I've actually bought 2 replacement drivers from Maplins already,but I wouldn't mind having a go at making some sort of a repair on the failed ones. ^_^

I should add that all 4 drivers were replaced at the same time all those years ago,not just the top 2.They are all Eminence.

Edited June 27, 2010 by squire5

[Colledge]

sounds horrible, but i'd be tempted to utilise some duck tape and see how that holds / sounds.

[KiOgon]

[quote name='Colledge' post='878885' date='Jun 27 2010, 03:24 PM']sounds horrible, but i'd be tempted to utilise some duck tape and see how that holds / sounds.[/quote]
:wacko: not a hope in hell!

[thinman]

Thin bead of superglue? Possibly Evostick contact adhesive.

[KiOgon]

It appears some people have not a clue on the precision required to get a speaker to do what a speaker does! The chances of success with glue or duck tape or anything else must be a million to one.

[thinman]

[quote name='KiOgon' post='878947' date='Jun 27 2010, 04:51 PM']It appears some people have not a clue on the precision required to get a speaker to do what a speaker does! The chances of success with glue or duck tape or anything else must be a million to one. [/quote]

True - speakers are precision pieces - but I think the OP may as well have a go if he's already bought replacements. Don't assume that because we make a suggestion that we're clueless.

[Bloodaxe]

[quote name='squire5' post='878884' date='Jun 27 2010, 03:22 PM']The cab is stored in my garage which is 'normal' temperature wise,and has been for years.[/quote]

The temperature may not be the issue - I'd be more concerned about humidity/damp in the long term, although that begs the question as to why the other two haven't failed. Are there batch numbers on them? maybe the failed two are from a dodgy batch. I'd doubt that there's anything else wrong with them, maybe get 'em reconed?

Overloading them usually causes voice-coil failure, not suspension collapse.

[quote name='KiOgon' post='878947' date='Jun 27 2010, 04:51 PM']The chances of success with glue or duck tape or anything else must be a million to one. [/quote]

Yeah, but million to one shots turn up 9 times out of ten

Pete.

[squire5]

On the night in question,I managed to get through the gig with the cones taped up with bright green insulating tape.Looked lovely,as it matched the green of the Trace Elliot rig.It stopped the flapping and buzzing for a while but I had to keep applying it.As Bloodaxe said ,the coils are OK as the drivers continued to work all night so it looks like a weakness in the cones themselves.I might give Eminence a ring and ask them what they think.

[Colledge]

[quote name='KiOgon' post='878947' date='Jun 27 2010, 04:51 PM']It appears some people have not a clue on the precision required to get a speaker to do what a speaker does! The chances of success with glue or duck tape or anything else must be a million to one. [/quote]

speakers are alot more hard wearing that you might think. i've seen people running high powered subs with duck tape on the cones, bottle tops for dust caps and allsorts. no, you won't get brilliantly clear hi-fi audio, but its definitely worth a try, even if its just for until new cones arrive.

also if i remember rightly, people like Tony Iommi and the like used to poke holes in the speaker cones to get their sound, seemed to work fine.

[squire5]

I fired an E-mail to Adam Hall who seems to be the UK agent for Eminence,according to their website.I've also attached some pics.Watch this space........

[thinman]

[quote name='squire5' post='879080' date='Jun 27 2010, 06:48 PM']I fired an E-mail to Adam Hall who seems to be the UK agent for Eminence,according to their website.I've also attached some pics.Watch this space........[/quote]
It might be worth posting something on Bill Fitzmaurice's site [url="http://www.billfitzmaurice.com"]billfitzmaurice.com[/url] as most of his designs use Eminence drivers. If anyone's had similar problems it will be someone there.

[Bloodaxe]

There's been something about this that sounded familiar, & it's been bugging me...

Turns out you're not alone: [url="http://www.talkbass.com/forum/showthread.php?t=666275&highlight=trace+elliot"]http://www.talkbass.com/forum/showthread.p...ht=trace+elliot[/url] - scroll down to post 18. Any Trace buffs out there can confirm or refute?

P.

Edited June 27, 2010 by Bloodaxe

[Mottlefeeder]

From what you said, it is the lower two cones in a four by ten that have gone.

My understanding [citation needed here] is that reflected waves from the floor put more stress in the lower cones, which if true, may explain your problem.

Many years ago I was using column four by twelves for the vocals (anyone else remember those), and the evening we put them on the floor, and not on chairs, we lost the bottom cones on both columns.

David

[thinman]

[quote name='Mottlefeeder' post='879230' date='Jun 27 2010, 09:15 PM']From what you said, it is the lower two cones in a four by ten that have gone.

My understanding [citation needed here] is that reflected waves from the floor put more stress in the lower cones, which if true, may explain your problem.

Many years ago I was using column four by twelves for the vocals (anyone else remember those), and the evening we put them on the floor, and not on chairs, we lost the bottom cones on both columns.

David[/quote]

Blimey - that's interesting. I wonder if anyone's got any more anecdotal evidence of that happening.

[squire5]

[quote name='Mottlefeeder' post='879230' date='Jun 27 2010, 09:15 PM']From what you said, it is the lower two cones in a four by ten that have gone.



David[/quote]

In my first post I stated that it was the top 2 drivers,David,but that is an interesting phenomena,right enough.I'm still dubious about the black 'seam' around the separation on the damaged drivers,which the undamaged ones do NOT have.This appears to be a weakspot,caused,in my opinion by the glue or whatever the black stuff is.They are not the original drivers,which I believe would have been Celestion,but have been solid performers up till now.On further reckoning,it would have been actually 15 years ago since they were installed,so I suppose they haven't done too badly,but I'd still like to know why just two have failed.

[cheddatom]

if two have a black line where they have broken, and the other two don't have the black line, surely that means they're slightly different models and the likelyhood is that whatever this black line is, it's a weakness?

I know nothing about speakers though.

[Protium]

If they're already broke, what's the harm in at least TRYING to fix them? Million to one or not, it's worth a go :wacko:


[quote name='KiOgon' post='878947' date='Jun 27 2010, 04:51 PM']It appears some people have not a clue on the precision required to get a speaker to do what a speaker does! The chances of success with glue or duck tape or anything else must be a million to one. [/quote]

[squire5]

[quote name='cheddatom' post='879924' date='Jun 28 2010, 02:50 PM']if two have a black line where they have broken, and the other two don't have the black line, surely that means they're slightly different models and the likelyhood is that whatever this black line is, it's a weakness?

I know nothing about speakers though.[/quote]

My thoughts exactly!I will however have a go at fixing them,but I doubt whether they'll ever be any use as standbys,or even in a separate cab,but hey,it'll give me something to do.No reply yet from Adam Hall,by the way.

[squire5]

[quote name='Bloodaxe' post='879203' date='Jun 27 2010, 08:44 PM']There's been something about this that sounded familiar, & it's been bugging me...

Turns out you're not alone: [url="http://www.talkbass.com/forum/showthread.php?t=666275&highlight=trace+elliot"]http://www.talkbass.com/forum/showthread.p...ht=trace+elliot[/url] - scroll down to post 18. Any Trace buffs out there can confirm or refute?

P.[/quote]


I've looked at that,but I think it's referring more to the glue that they use to hold the magnet to the basket itself.Not quite the same thing,I think.Also that referred to Trace speakers.Mine are Eminence.Interesting,all the same.

[Phil Starr]

The termination between the cone and the surround takes an awful lot of energy and eventually like all moving parts it fails. Often you find that the paper fibres under the glue are what has actually failed. The joint has to be flexible so the only really practical glue to use is a latex based one like copydex. Ive successfully repaired small tears with toilet tissue replacing the broken fibres laminated in place with Copydex but I don't think You'll be successful with such an extensive repair.

[Gareth Hughes]

This might be irrelevant as I'm not too sure what goes on with speakers BUT I had a similar sound coming from one speaker in a Hartke 2.5XL cab years ago. Turned out to be the dust cover had worked it's way loose. A little bit of silicon was used to reattach it and everything worked lovely. This was done by Ernie McMillen in Comber, so if that's anywhere handy to you, PM and I'll pass on his details.