Anyone use a power conditioner?

[skampino]

Was discussing having my LM11 in a rack with tuner and was told I would need a power conditioner. Is this the same as an RCD or surge protector? Should I be using any of these. I was under the impression most amps haver some sort of surge protector inbuilt.
cheers for any replies but please keep it simple as I'm not at all familiar with technical terms or jargon.

[Toasted]

I have no idea why anyone would tell you that you need a power conditioner unless they were trying to sell you one.

[Bloodaxe]

[quote name='Toasted' post='784125' date='Mar 23 2010, 10:55 PM']I have no idea why anyone would tell you that you need a power conditioner unless they were trying to sell you one.[/quote]

Agreed.

They can be of some use if you're doing little local outdoor gigs as diesel generators can produce lumpy electric which digital gear may not care for.

RCD on the other hand is compulsory given the state of some pub & rehearsal space electrics. An RCD can be a life-saver - literally.

Pete.

[skampino]

[quote name='Bloodaxe' post='784135' date='Mar 23 2010, 11:02 PM']Agreed.

They can be of some use if you're doing little local outdoor gigs as diesel generators can produce lumpy electric which digital gear may not care for.

RCD on the other hand is compulsory given the state of some pub & rehearsal space electrics. An RCD can be a life-saver - literally.

Pete.[/quote]
Is a surge protector the same as an RCD?
What amp RCD should I use?
Is it one per instrument or can me and the guitarist use it for a 4 way extension?

Edited March 23, 2010 by skampino

[witterth]

I thought a "power conditioner" was sommat my lass used on her hair...."cos shes worth it "
every one should have a "cut out" switch on electrical gear, amp/straigtners/dryer/PA whatever (even hair dressers,is that what you mean?)

Edited March 23, 2010 by witterth

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

[quote name='Toasted' post='784125' date='Mar 23 2010, 06:55 PM']I have no idea why anyone would tell you that you need a power conditioner unless they were trying to sell you one.[/quote]+1. The only proponents of power conditioners are those who make them, those who sell them, and those who believe the sales pitches proffered by same. For a more unbiased view ask any amp manufacturer if their amps should be used with one. Not one will say 'yes'.

[skampino]

Ok, I get I don't need one but what RCD? There are so many with different voltage/amp ratings etc.

[Bloodaxe]

[quote name='skampino' post='784146' date='Mar 23 2010, 11:10 PM']Is a surge protector the same as an RCD?
What amp RCD should I use?
Is it one per instrument or can me and the guitarist use it for a 4 way extension?[/quote]

An RCD is a different beast from a surge protector. Think of it as an incredibly fast-acting fuse that'll also detect dodgy wiring.

A fuse will blow - eventually - after it's passed more current (amps) than it's designed to handle. "Eventually" is the key word here... This from the Wikipedia entry (my bold italics):

[quote]The speed at which a fuse blows depends on how much current flows through it and the material of which the fuse is made. The operating time is not a fixed interval, but decreases as the current increases. Fuses have different characteristics of operating time compared to current, characterized as "fast-blow", "slow-blow" or "time-delay", according to time required to respond to an overcurrent condition. [i][b]A standard fuse may require twice its rated current to open in one second, a fast-blow fuse may require twice its rated current to blow in 0.1 seconds, and a slow-blow fuse may require twice its rated current for tens of seconds to blow.[/b][/i][/quote]

An RCD will typically trip in less than 50mS (50/1000 or 0.05 Seconds) at a fraction of the current of the fuse. More on RCDs here: [url="http://www.explainthatstuff.com/howrcdswork.html"]http://www.explainthatstuff.com/howrcdswork.html[/url]

More on fuses here: [url="http://www.allaboutcircuits.com/vol_1/chpt_12/4.html"]http://www.allaboutcircuits.com/vol_1/chpt_12/4.html[/url]
They've also got a page on how little electricity you need to be lethal given the right circumstances: [url="http://www.allaboutcircuits.com/vol_1/chpt_3/4.html"]http://www.allaboutcircuits.com/vol_1/chpt_3/4.html[/url]

Maplin do a 13 Amp RCD that you can plug a 4-way extension (& your guitarist) into: [url="http://www.maplin.co.uk/Module.aspx?ModuleNo=29769"]http://www.maplin.co.uk/Module.aspx?ModuleNo=29769[/url]
They also do several surge-protected 4-way strips: [url="http://www.maplin.co.uk/Search.aspx?menuno=69640"]http://www.maplin.co.uk/Search.aspx?menuno=69640[/url]

Pete.

[BluRay]

I've got one: a samson pb10. I know I don't need it. And TBH I've no idea how will it protects my gear (although I do use iffy rehersal rooms, and play the odd outdoor gig so maybe its a good idea).

Mostly it fills up an empty rack space until I can think of something else to put in it. :-)

On the plus side, its very handy a power hub that I can run all my gear through, with a single plug/on switch for the lot. And it has some cool slidy-outy lights that are much better than the so-called racklight on, say, a KorgDTR. Thats what sold it if I'm honest!

[Toasted]

I read back my post this morning and it sounds very anti-power conditioner. It's not ment to be - what I mean is if you want to use one because it lights up your rack, and provides and easy rack-mountable set of sockets for you to plug in all your great then it's great.

If you want to use one for the conveniance, then I think you should - but I would never say you NEEDED one as if they were essential.

Edited March 24, 2010 by Toasted

[chris_b]

Some tell us that you can't successfully mix speaker sizes, that cables are all the same and that power conditioners don't do what the manufacturers claim.

As I have positive experience of the first 2 (you can and they're not) it leaves me thinking I'd like to know more about power conditioners from unbiased sources.

[BluRay]

[quote name='Toasted' post='784567' date='Mar 24 2010, 12:09 PM']I read back my post this morning and it sounds very anti-power conditioner. It's not ment to be - what I mean is if you want to use one because it lights up your rack, and provides and easy rack-mountable set of sockets for you to plug in all your great then it's great.

If you want to use one for the conveniance, then I think you should - but I would never say you NEEDED one as if they were essential.[/quote]


Thats what I think too :-)
I think they can be handy for various reasons - but I'll probabaly swap mine eventually for a more useful 1u gadget. Just cant decide on one just yet!

[escholl]

[quote name='chris_b' post='784605' date='Mar 24 2010, 12:43 PM']Some tell us that you can't successfully mix speaker sizes, that cables are all the same and that power conditioners don't do what the manufacturers claim.[/quote]

Mixing speaker sizes won't lead to an early death or global warming, but there are objective reasons why it is not an ideal solution.

Cables are not all the same but once you pass a certain quality threshold (generally speaking, around 20-30 quid) the differences between makes becomes irrelevant. Furthermore, there are actually times when a higher capacitance cable may be the favourable tonal solution, however shielding and connector quality are always important. For speaker cables, it is important to simply have decent sized copper conductors well soldered to connectors which will provide a good, firm contact, thus providing as low an overall cable resistance as possible. Once you reach that point, your money is better spent elsewhere. In the studio and in hi-fi systems the same principle applies, regardless of what manufacturers say. Psychoacoustics is a powerful thing.

Power conditioners do, often, do in operation what the manufacturers claim. The will remove high frequency noise and harmonics above 50/60 Hz, and provide a measure of surge protection. In my experience, they are also unable to remove most of the things which are truly disruptive, such as transients caused by lights being turned on or off, or the mains noise generated by a high-current AC motor. As such, their necessity, given that any well made electronic equipment will have a power supply which does a similar or better job of this, and why they should be chosen over a simple RCD and surge protector, is debatable.

In my own personal objective view, short of upgrading to a rather expensive balanced power conditioner (for studio use, not live), there is no need in the UK to use a conditioner on the mains supply. They *do* tend to be useful, however, as they will also likely incorporate built-in rack lighting and convenient power distribution functionality.

[99ster]

[quote name='Toasted' post='784567' date='Mar 24 2010, 12:09 PM']I read back my post this morning and it sounds very anti-power conditioner. It's not ment to be - what I mean is if you want to use one because it lights up your rack, and provides and easy rack-mountable set of sockets for you to plug in all your great then it's great.

If you want to use one for the conveniance, then I think you should - but I would never say you NEEDED one as if they were essential.[/quote]


I've got a Furman power conditioner that I got cheap off eBay (they quite often get sold off with recycled server racks) - as Joe suggests...just to use as an easy rack-mountable set of sockets.
I took the top off to have a look inside, expecting to see at least some sort of hardware that would be doing the power conditioning 'magic'.
All I could see was a set of main sockets! Most of the rest of the inside of the case is...empty.
But it is very hand in a rack for plugging other bits into...

[Bloodaxe]

[quote name='chris_b' post='784605' date='Mar 24 2010, 12:43 PM']Some tell us that you can't successfully mix speaker sizes, that cables are all the same and that power conditioners don't do what the manufacturers claim.

As I have positive experience of the first 2 (you can and they're not) it leaves me thinking I'd like to know more about power conditioners from unbiased sources.[/quote]

(Note: [b]escholl[/b]'s post above says it more succinctly, but I've spent an age on this & I'm damned if I'm chucking this lot down the pan now!)

A couple for Power Conditioners:

[url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Power_conditioner"]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Power_conditioner[/url]

[url="http://www.wisegeek.com/what-is-a-power-conditioner.htm"]http://www.wisegeek.com/what-is-a-power-conditioner.htm[/url]

& one for Line Conditioners:

[url="http://www.pcguide.com/ref/power/ext/protLine-c.html"]http://www.pcguide.com/ref/power/ext/protLine-c.html[/url]

A Google search didn't really bring much else up, tbh, apart from manufacturers & retailers, who aren't likely to be "unbiased sources". I find it odd that it's dead easy to find a layman's explanation of an RCD - with diagrams - & yet next to nothing on power conditioners.

My interpretation of a "power conditioner" would be a device that removes noise from the mains supply leaving a pure 50Hz sine wave nominally 240V peak-to-peak.

Co-incidentally that's [i][b]exactly[/b][/i] what I'd expect of the Smoothing & Regulation circuits in a well-designed on-board power supply such as I'd hope to find in any item of signal-processing equipment. It's a lot easier to do this [i][b]after[/b][/i] rectification & smoothing, as you're then removing an AC component from the DC which is a lot easier than filtering out a bunch of overtones.

Pre-filtering the mains supply seems a tad pointless to me unless your supply is unbelievably noisy. I'd doubt this would be the case unless you live in an extremely rural area or were reliant on a petrol/diesel generator. I'd expect there to be stated tolerances for line noise, but couldn't find anything under any search term I could think of.

Surge suppression is a useful feature, especially if you're dealing with switch-mode power supplies. If you add in extra connectivity [i]and[/i] cool slidey-outy lights then it's a no-brainer of a winner.

Pete.

[Toasted]

[quote name='Bloodaxe' post='784725' date='Mar 24 2010, 02:23 PM'][i]and[/i] cool slidey-outy lights[/quote]

Well... you got one thing right Pete!

[BTGAndy]

I have a Furman power conditioner and at first was quite sceptical about it making any difference. I was wrong, it makes a huge difference to the sound of my amp, so much so that the vocalist in my last band noticed a big difference and he never made comment on my bass sound. I've run Hi-fis and studio monitors through it with similar results. They're useful to have about if you do gigs in venues with suspect power supplies. Most definitely not an essential item though, I'm not sure why you'd be told you would need one.