Bloody drummers..!?

[fergy1971]

We've started playing some bigger places recently and the drummer needs some help. Rather than micing him up through our PA, we were wondering whether we could mix him through into my gear. I've got 450w head into a 1x15 & a 4x10. There's only one input into my Peavey head so I was thinking of buying a cheap mixer to feed in the bass drum, the general drum mic and my bass.
Does anyone see any problems with this at all?

[Adrenochrome]

Actually I can see more probs than I could write down.
Put him through the PA!

[tonybassplayer]

[quote name='Adrenochrome' post='693975' date='Dec 26 2009, 09:09 PM']Actually I can see more probs than I could write down.
Put him through the PA![/quote]


+1 to this

I just take one 15" cab now for my bass set up but it's almost only in use as a monitor for me as most goes through the pa so assuming the pa will take it just mic up the drums and put them through the pa

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

[quote name='Adrenochrome' post='693975' date='Dec 26 2009, 04:09 PM']Actually I can see more probs than I could write down.
Put him through the PA![/quote]+1. There are a dozen downsides to putting drums through your rig and no upsides.

[maxrossell]

Yep, what they said.

There's literally no way in hell what you're suggesting would work.

[chris_b]

Sorry mate.... baaaad idea!!!!!

[fergy1971]

Thanks for that guys.
We only have a couple of 10" speakers on our PA and only run 3x vox through it. We play mainly weddings and pubs that have no PAs of their own. You all agree that it's a bad idea, but may I ask why? Is it that my rig would be damaged or that the sound would be sh*te? Would there be feedback issues? Just hypothetically then, what would be the main issues?
Thanks in anticipation.

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

[quote name='fergy1971' post='694045' date='Dec 26 2009, 06:45 PM']what would be the main issues?[/quote]Instead of your drummer sounding bad both you and he would sound bad. Leave it at that.
On this side of the pond if you're not playing the best rooms it's expected you will provide your own PA. If you don't have one you'll never graduate to the rooms where you won't need it.

Edited December 27, 2009 by Bill Fitzmaurice

[phil.i.stein]

yep !
don't do it ! get your drummer to get a seperate monitor/backline i.e. an old cheap p.a. or keyboard amp & cab(s). they can also then dial in reverb (dub snare etc.) and have a nicely eq.'d bass drum noise for you to follow..additional benefit is click-track compatability (assuming there is a headphone socket & aux-in)
ok. later edit..
1) don't mud your bass sound with a load of other unnecessary frequencies
2) if you're only doing small venues, then bass drum should be the one to mic-up unless fx are required on snare etc..

Edited December 27, 2009 by phil.i.stein

[JTUK]

If you only have a small PA then you will have to set your levels of ALL instruments to the lowest sound level.
This isn't such a bad isea as you might learn about dynamics and power rather than out and out volume.

Too many people get volume over the ability to 'mix' sound so TOTALLY wrong.. IMO,

You'll read it on this forum as well, when people talk about the volume of their bass rig instead of the ability of the bass EQ to cut through.

Focus on upgrading your PA if the gigs justify it as 1st priority.

Edited December 27, 2009 by JTUK

[Stingray]

[quote name='JTUK' post='694095' date='Dec 27 2009, 07:52 AM']If you only have a small PA then you will have to set your levels of ALL instruments to the lowest sound level.
This isn't such a bad isea as you might learn about dynamics and power rather than out and out volume.

Too many people get volume over the ability to 'mix' sound so TOTALLY wrong.. IMO,

You'll read it on this forum as well, when people talk about the volume of their bass rig instead of the ability of the bass EQ to cut through.

Focus on upgrading your PA if the gigs justify it as 1st priority.[/quote]

Totally agree with all people above. The reason is that the bass drum will drain the power from your amp as the beat coincides with the rhythm on your bass. If the drummer needs to be louder another option is for him to invest in a small powered bass bin with a basic mixer and leave that near his kit. I also agree with the previous comment about bass EQ. The problem is though, that although you can create a sound that cuts through by raising the mids and cutting the lows, it does not always agree with the sound you have in your head.

[maxrossell]

[quote name='JTUK' post='694095' date='Dec 27 2009, 07:52 AM']Too many people get volume over the ability to 'mix' sound so TOTALLY wrong.. IMO,[/quote]

Amen to that. It's like when you practice. The loudest thing in the room should be the drummer. Saves your ears and encourages the drummer to play with more subtlety - and crucially, you'll be able to hear what everyone else is doing.

If you're mainly playing weddings and pubs, you shouldn't really need a large PA, and certainly not one that cranks the drums, as most of those places won't thank you for being loud.

At an absolute push, you could consider investing in a larger PA and running the kick through it - not so the kick is much louder, just to give it more presence in the mix and to have it lock in with the bass better.

[Adrenochrome]

I could suggest that you get a cheap amp/cab for the drums - but you'd be better off getting some cheap bass cabs for your PA and mike the drums with a couple of mikes. In my last band we got some Scott bass cabs for £80. You'll also need a cheap amp to power them (unless your PA has plenty of spare juice and the necessary outputs to drive 2 more cabs).

[ogri]

there all talking sense mate...just dont do it.
we use a small Pa (powerworks..HK's cheaper option and a great little rig) in pubs all the time , a single powered sub and two tops with the bass drum just tickled through it a bit.
in true time honoured drummer tradition/fashion in the fifteen years ive been playing with my bestmate blanty on drums he has been "borrowing" my D112 for this....

i knew this drummer once, he got done by the police for breaking into a five pound note...got let off though, first offence.....

ho ho bloody ho...

Edited December 27, 2009 by ogri

[phil.i.stein]

i knew this drummer once, he got done by the police for breaking into a five pound note...got let off though, first offence.....

ho ho bloody ho...
[/quote]
at least you managed to find a tight drummer...

Edited December 27, 2009 by phil.i.stein

[LawrenceH]

I am going to disagree with everyone here and say it is sometimes worth putting the bass drum through the bass rig. We used to do this with a 4x12" 300w valve Trace Elliot way back in my first band. Punched better than any PA I've tried that didn't have separate subs, and better than many smaller subs too. We didn't try and exaggerate the click of the beater or anything but we got a solid, well-damped thump that really helped lay a groove.

You might try putting a bit of the LOW end of the snare through as well, it's surprising how important sub-500Hz region can be for giving punch in certain styles.

It doesn't need much, or it indeed starts to have undesirable effects. But in my experience putting drums through inadequate PA tops will compromise vocals much more than you'll compromise bass in this method. 450w is a decent amount of headroom to be working with. Plus if you and the drummer are tight, having the kick from the same sound source really helps create a solid sound, almost like the beat of the kick is the beginning of your bass note.

And yes, before I get piled into for saying this, I HAVE done a fair bit of live sound with a fair few different small and medium systems, inc off the top of my head JBL, EV, Nexo, Martin Audio, RCF etc so although I'm by no means a pro I am at least able to make a meaningful comparison.

[ironside1966]

Most bass amps have a limited frequency range so putting a drum kit on the face of it is a bad idea it will eat up valuable headroom of the amp and struggle to produce the higher frequencies un less the cab has a HF driver of some sort.
What is a good sound? that’s down to the individual the only way to find out if it works for you is to try is to try it.
My advice is play within your means; a good quiet sound beats a bad loud sound any day

If the gigs are paid is there any reason why you cannot invest some of the money back in to the band and upgrade the equipment as this will benefit you financially in the long term.

Edited December 27, 2009 by ironside1966

[fergy1971]

[quote name='LawrenceH' post='694488' date='Dec 27 2009, 07:40 PM'][b]Plus if you and the drummer are tight[/b], having the kick from the same sound source really helps create a solid sound, almost like the beat of the kick is the beginning of your bass note.[/quote]

That's us knackered then!!

Cheers guys. Thanks for the advice - some food for thought there.
All the best!

[umph]

[quote name='LawrenceH' post='694488' date='Dec 27 2009, 07:40 PM']I am going to disagree with everyone here and say it is sometimes worth putting the bass drum through the bass rig. We used to do this with a 4x12" 300w valve Trace Elliot way back in my first band. Punched better than any PA I've tried that didn't have separate subs, and better than many smaller subs too. We didn't try and exaggerate the click of the beater or anything but we got a solid, well-damped thump that really helped lay a groove.

You might try putting a bit of the LOW end of the snare through as well, it's surprising how important sub-500Hz region can be for giving punch in certain styles.

It doesn't need much, or it indeed starts to have undesirable effects. But in my experience putting drums through inadequate PA tops will compromise vocals much more than you'll compromise bass in this method. 450w is a decent amount of headroom to be working with. Plus if you and the drummer are tight, having the kick from the same sound source really helps create a solid sound, almost like the beat of the kick is the beginning of your bass note.

And yes, before I get piled into for saying this, I HAVE done a fair bit of live sound with a fair few different small and medium systems, inc off the top of my head JBL, EV, Nexo, Martin Audio, RCF etc so although I'm by no means a pro I am at least able to make a meaningful comparison.[/quote]
you had a v6 for your kick drum rig? wow

[LawrenceH]

[quote name='umph' post='694528' date='Dec 27 2009, 09:14 PM']you had a v6 for your kick drum rig? wow[/quote]

Evidently so...I had to look up the amp because it was a fair while back but the v6 looks about right. It was the bass rig as well, of course, and we just whacked the kick through it as an experiment to see if we could get a bit more oomph. But I can confidently say that headroom was NOT an issue with that amp! The sound was, in technical parlance, phat.