Why do musos stick with their sh*t bands?

[maxrossell]

[quote name='Mog' post='682050' date='Dec 12 2009, 11:33 AM']Firstly the tracks are good. Lots of grunge/alt vibes and I reckon the band could get somewhere with proper managment. Second, your attitude stinks kid, passing comments on other musicians ability or gear is not on.If they're kids, then of course they're gonna be playing through cheaper gear. Did you start out with a stadium ready rig? Remarks like those makes you seem like a condescending dick and no ammount of modest comments about your bands ability will change that. Musicians will ultimately play in a band where they feel comfortable, 90% of that will come from a good relationship with bandmates. I dont want to come across as making a personal attack, I just think you need to readjust your views when it comes to other bands/musicians.In the end, with that kind of attitude towards others, your just alienating you and your band from the scene.[/quote]

"The scene"? What scene are we talking about here? The scene of beginner college bands?

I'm not passing comments on the other band's gear or ability to take the piss out of them, I'm doing it to illustrate how bizarre I find it that someone who is so far ahead of them as a musician would continue to play with them when there are dozens of opportunities to progress. Would you find it weird if I wondered out loud why a football player good enough to compete at a regional level would choose to remain with a team of people who haven't yet figured out how to dribble the ball? Hell, maybe you would, but I don't understand why someone who has talent and ability wouldn't want to engage with something at least close to their level.

[Mog]

[quote name='maxrossell' post='682068' date='Dec 12 2009, 11:53 AM']"The scene"? What scene are we talking about here? The scene of beginner college bands?

I'm not passing comments on the other band's gear or ability to take the piss out of them, I'm doing it to illustrate how bizarre I find it that someone who is so far ahead of them as a musician would continue to play with them when there are dozens of opportunities to progress. Would you find it weird if I wondered out loud why a football player good enough to compete at a regional level would choose to remain with a team of people who haven't yet figured out how to dribble the ball? Hell, maybe you would, but I don't understand why someone who has talent and ability wouldn't want to engage with something at least close to their level.[/quote]
Whatever scene your band is in. The collective grouping of bands from a similar genre.The issue I had with your post was in the wording. Talking negatively about a band will eventually come back around on you. The fact that you made the comments about his bandmates abilities was offensive or would be if they happened to see it. Personally I dont agree with remarks of that sort.I've seen too many kids give up on playing music because their abilities were of a low standard and instead of giving guidence and support, other musicians felt it was better to point out they're shortcomings. Technical ability is not what makes a band enjoyable. I've played with many musicians over the years and the only reason I would leave a band is because of peoples attitudes.One in particular is Grade 8 on piano,violin and guitar. He plays with the local choral society.Fair dues to him, he's happy with it. The guy in your O.P is in that band because he feels it is where he wants to be musically. You should respect that,give him an option of joining your band and let him think it over for a few weeks.

[LukeFRC]

[quote name='maxrossell' post='680922' date='Dec 11 2009, 06:01 AM']One instance stands out, a good bass player I spoke to briefly in August, whose explanation for not being interested in joining my band despite being extremely into our sort of music was that he played bass in this other band. I checked out said other band, and they were awful. Total beginner, practice-amp, argos-guitar, I-know-three-and-a-half-chords awful. I think the drummer had half a kit because he couldn't afford the other half (he was about fifteen) Despite this they practiced three times a week and two of the days conflicted directly. The weird thing is that he had to travel all the way to Garstang to practice with this band, but jamming with us would have meant walking down the street. And the kicker is that he didn't even like the music these kids played, and wasn't really mates with them because he was a good five years older.

I have yet to figure out why this guy turned down an offer of working with an experienced gigging band in his favourite style of music in favour of staying with a band that would have had trouble getting through a Nirvana cover and were probably about three years away from being ready to get on any kind of stage. I can't even begin to contemplate that he didn't know how bad they were. That's completely impossible.[/quote]

i'll start off with saying i havn't listened to your stuff at all,

but it strikes me some of the most exciting music around comes from young beginners who are doing something they believe in. I started a band in art college, with me on bass and a friend on toy keyboard. bar the guitarist havin been in a band before and the trumpet player playing in brass bands we had no experience. but the music was amazing and exciting. all 3 chords of a few of our songs... we ended up with experienced gigging bands playing technically brilliant music through top of the range gear supporting us.
Super-serious amateur weekend-rockstars playing with all the best-gear-soundcontrol-sells playing their own ('professional' sounding) varients of the guitar music they listened to when they were 17..... sometimes the mess of a nivana cover and people believing in themselves despite their musical weaknesses is more interesting

[maxrossell]

[quote name='Mog' post='682098' date='Dec 12 2009, 12:34 PM']Whatever scene your band is in. The collective grouping of bands from a similar genre.The issue I had with your post was in the wording. Talking negatively about a band will eventually come back around on you. The fact that you made the comments about his bandmates abilities was offensive or would be if they happened to see it.[/quote]

My band isn't in a "scene", whatever the hell that means. Neither for that matter is the band we're taking about. And you may notice that I haven't identified anyone, and the bass player in question doesn't use basschat, so no-one involved is gonna see it. Satisfied?

[quote]Personally I dont agree with remarks of that sort.I've seen too many kids give up on playing music because their abilities were of a low standard and instead of giving guidence and support, other musicians felt it was better to point out they're shortcomings. Technical ability is not what makes a band enjoyable. I've played with many musicians over the years and the only reason I would leave a band is because of peoples attitudes.One in particular is Grade 8 on piano,violin and guitar. He plays with the local choral society.Fair dues to him, he's happy with it. The guy in your O.P is in that band because he feels it is where he wants to be musically. You should respect that,give him an option of joining your band and let him think it over for a few weeks.[/quote]

Yeah. The fact is that they're a beginner college band and so they sound awful, just like mine did when I started out, and like yours did when you started out. It's not up for discussion. That's not the point. And I'm not a retard, thank you very much, if it wasn't already a done deal that he's chosen to remain in the band we're discussing I wouldn't have brought it up. Furthermore if you'd read my original post, you'd have noted that the band he's in is [i]not[/i] where he wants to be musically, and they're [i]not[/i] his friends, and yet he's chosen to stay with them instead of joining my band or any other of the four or five bands that have asked him. If it was as simple as "they're his mates and his likes the music" I wouldn't have asked the question.

Oh, also, a matter of personal preference, I don't like being called "kid" if you don't mind. Cheers.

[maxrossell]

[quote name='LukeFRC' post='682114' date='Dec 12 2009, 12:58 PM']i'll start off with saying i havn't listened to your stuff at all,

Super-serious amateur weekend-rockstars playing with all the best-gear-soundcontrol-sells playing their own ('professional' sounding) varients of the guitar music they listened to when they were 17.....[/quote]

You must be psychic.

[skankdelvar]

[quote name='maxrossell' post='682125' date='Dec 12 2009, 01:08 PM']Oh, also, a matter of personal preference, I don't like being called "kid" if you don't mind. Cheers.[/quote]

At your age, Max, I'd take that as a compliment

[maxrossell]

[quote name='skankdelvar' post='682141' date='Dec 12 2009, 01:22 PM']At your age, Max, I'd take that as a compliment [/quote]

Man, I'd give you a good telling off for that comment if it wasn't for my dodgy hip.

[Mog]

Well sorry your taking such offence to my point of view, as I said at the start of our limited skirmish it is not to be taken as a personal attack,but i'll stick by my statments. The point I'm making is your choice of words was wrong IMO. You cant justify commenting on other people in that manner simply by comparing them to level you were at when you started out. The 'kid' thing is something I use with most people and wasnt used in a derogatory sense. On the assumption that you checked my profile, you'll be aware we are of the same age. Again, apoligies if I caused any offence.

[neepheid]

[quote name='maxrossell' post='682125' date='Dec 12 2009, 01:08 PM']the bass player in question doesn't use basschat[/quote]

WHAT?

[maxrossell]

[quote name='Mog' post='682149' date='Dec 12 2009, 01:36 PM']The point I'm making is your choice of words was wrong IMO. You cant justify commenting on other people in that manner simply by comparing them to level you were at when you started out.[/quote]

Why not? They're around the same age as I was when I started, around the same instrumental level, their gear is about as crap as mine was, and for exactly the same reasons as my first band was awful, they're awful. I wouldn't call awful to their faces, but given that on here no-one has the faintest idea of who they even are it doesn't matter. Again, I'm just emphasising their beginner-ness to make the point of how much better this guy is than them.

[MythSte]

[quote name='maxrossell' post='682158' date='Dec 12 2009, 01:49 PM']Why not? They're around the same age as I was when I started, around the same instrumental level, their gear is about as crap as mine was, and for exactly the same reasons as my first band was awful, they're awful. I wouldn't call awful to their faces, but given that on here no-one has the faintest idea of who they even are it doesn't matter. Again, I'm just emphasising their beginner-ness to make the point of how much better this guy is than them.[/quote]

I thought he was talking about me to start with. But my hair isn't long enough to join maxis band

Lets stop nitpicking now ladies and gents.

Oh, and Max, have you had a chance to Lurk on Prestone recently... I think you'll be pleasantly surprised!

[TheButler]

Perhaps he just manages to see some potential, and lives in the secure knowledge that one day these guys won't be awful. By that time he will have secured his place, and will have furthered his control. Maybe he is xenophobic, or would rather play with kids than disrupt routine. All this is speculation, but if it had any truth you'd be better without him.

The reasons ate endless, and i hate to point out something so simple, but why not just ask the fellow? Perhaps he might even have criticisms of your band.

[thinman]

As regards the OP I wonder if it's just a case that it's somtimes bloody difficult to assemble a band? Better to be in any band that's active than being one of those sad cases that actually does nothing but tell people what they did or would do! I feel very lucky at how the band I'm in fell together - we all get on fine, have a laugh, are musically fairly equal and have enough overlap in tastes to get along.

I tried to put a second band together earlier this year as I and couple of the others had more time than the rest and it was really difficult trying to find people at all for some roles, let alone the right people.

[arsenic]

[quote name='thinman' post='682194' date='Dec 12 2009, 02:38 PM']Better to be in any band that's active than being one of those sad cases that actually does nothing but tell people what they did or would do![/quote]

I actuall find this part of your post insulting. not everyone who doesn't play in [u]any[/u] band at all is a sad case. I don't for a very specific reason, I have lost some of the use of my left hand/arm, and will probobly never get it back - I know that I will unlikely be good enough to play in a band again - so I play for my own pleasure while I try to come to terms with this disability, and essentially learn to play all over again, working out a technique that will be suitable for my situation. I do talk about what I have done in the past, and I do try to guide my son who plays bass, and his band, to avoid them making the same mistakes I made in the past.....and based on your comment this makes me a sad case does it.....well thank you very much.

[Eight]

Terry, I think Thinman might have meant that it's better to be in a band that's at least playing as opposed to joining one still forming which might never get passed the "just need drummer to complete line-up" stage.

I sincerely hope he wasn't having a pop at people not playing in bands as, as you've illustrated, there are often good reasons and however someone decides to enjoy playing is up to them.

Edited December 12, 2009 by Eight

[maxrossell]

[quote name='MythSte' post='682164' date='Dec 12 2009, 01:59 PM']I thought he was talking about me to start with. But my hair isn't long enough to join maxis band

Lets stop nitpicking now ladies and gents.

Oh, and Max, have you had a chance to Lurk on Prestone recently... I think you'll be pleasantly surprised![/quote]

Nah. I'm maybe not a huge fan of your band's music but I'd hardly call them awful.

I've not been on Prestone in months. What would surprise me?

[Netballman]

[quote name='arsenic' post='682230' date='Dec 12 2009, 03:20 PM']I actuall find this part of your post insulting. not everyone who doesn't play in [u]any[/u] band at all is a sad case. I don't for a very specific reason, I have lost some of the use of my left hand/arm, and will probobly never get it back - I know that I will unlikely be good enough to play in a band again - so I play for my own pleasure while I try to come to terms with this disability, and essentially learn to play all over again, working out a technique that will be suitable for my situation. I do talk about what I have done in the past, and I do try to guide my son who plays bass, and his band, to avoid them making the same mistakes I made in the past.....and based on your comment this makes me a sad case does it.....well thank you very much.[/quote]


Terry, I know it's not quite the same thing, but a couple of years ago I had a major back op which went wrong and left me with severe (and permanent) numbness in my left foot and leg, and slightly less severe numbness in my right foot. I used to play netball at a high level (hence my monicker!) and as I could no longer run or jump off my left leg, or indeed move fast without risk of falling over, I thought I'd never play again. However after a year of feeling sorry for myself I decided that if people with prosthetic limbs could do sport, then so could I, even if not at the level I used to. Over the last year I've been "retraining" myself and I'm now playing again as a shooter (the least mobile position!) in a social team, where I am making a valid contribution and enjoying myself hugely with a lovely bunch of people who are playing for the enjoyment of it, not to win prizes.

You'd only be a sad case if you didn't make an effort to come through your problems - as I was one for a year until I decided to do something about it. Congratulations to you on keeping your love for playing going, and rest assured you WILL find a way which gives you enjoyment. Keep at it mate and never give up!

[Mog]

[quote name='Netballman' post='682575' date='Dec 12 2009, 09:50 PM']Congratulations to you on keeping your love for playing going, and rest assured you WILL find a way which gives you enjoyment. Keep at it mate and never give up! [/quote]
+1 on that. Had a couple of knocks in work a few years ago that left me with serious hand and neck issues. The result was that my speed and dexterity were shot to pieces and I had to virtually retrain my fretting hand.I'm not back to the level I was at but eventually I got back gigging.Obviously your case is different but you come across as the type who will give it a hell of a go.Keep at it lad, sheer bloody mindedness and steadfast determination can overcome most obstacles.

[arsenic]

To Netballman and Mog.

Thanks for all the comments and encouragement - outside of work, bass was a way of life for me for 25 years, so its's been hard to ride this out. 13 years waiting for an operarion that didn't improve things makes me feel, perhaps, a little angry and a bit sensitive - but it is this which is fueling my desire to play once again. I sold all my kit, and only kept my first bass, a banana necked copy, which I picked up now and again, So I am now trying to get some stuff around me to go for a full on attack, even having a Bass made for me by Paul (Prosebass) to try and get the best from the limited movement.

Again - thanks guys.

To Eight.

I appreciate the point you made, and I must admit that I read the post a couple of times before posting, to make sure I hadn't taken anything the wrong way . Personally I couldn't rationalise any other way because Thinman had catagorically split the camp in to two distinct halves - those that play in an "active band" - which reads as anyone jamming/rehearsing/gigging - and thoses that don't play in a band - the "sad cases". There was no mention of "in the process of forming" or even "college/school knock about bands with no intention of doing anything about it" - he made a clear 2-way split "band" and "sad case". If this is not what he meant, then I apologise, but, ensuring that the wording in posts is clear, may stop others from taking things the wrong way....and this applies to me as well. - I hope I have explained why I took offense - I never post in anger, but I am guilty of posting out of frustration, especially when comfronted with apparent "everything is black or white" attitudes.

To Maxrossell

Sorry that I inadvertantly hi-jacked your thread, this was not intentional and I do not make a habbit of it, I just felt I had to make a point.

As far as your original question is concerned, I think there are valid points on both sides, and it all depends on the individuals outlook on life, and each persons comfort zone, and I think we all, as musicians need to accept that people will find their way in the world in their own good time, and I am sure many of us have made mistakes and choices that have, or will, come back to haunt us.

I was once asked to dep for a band who were good friends, and who, at the time, had record company interest....I did the gig, and I thought thatI had ruined it completely - they were full of nothing but encouragement, and when their bass player left, they asked me to join. I was not in their league when it came to playing. they were about 7 years older and had been playing together for years. Based on this one bad, in my mind, performance, I refused and stayed with a small inexperienced bunch, where I felt my skill level was more appropriate - The band broke up, because they could not find a suitable replacement, and that was the end of their dream at that that point.....that was nearly 30 years ago, and I still kick myself over it.

We all make choices, some for the better, some for the worse, and both sides have to live with it. I know I do......

[Eight]

[quote name='arsenic' post='682834' date='Dec 13 2009, 10:25 AM']To Eight.
I appreciate the point you made, and I must admit that I read the post a couple of times before posting, to make sure I hadn't taken anything the wrong way .[/quote]
It is a difficult one, and I can see why you would have taken offense interpreting it the way you did. I just thought I'd post and say I'd read it differently in the hope that a bit of doubt over the message might make you feel a bit better while we wait for Thinman to clear it up.

BTW I can only wish you luck and encouragement in what you're trying to do with the bass now. But from the way you talk about it, I'm sure your passion for playing will help you find a way.

[thinman]

[quote name='arsenic' post='682230' date='Dec 12 2009, 03:20 PM']I actuall find this part of your post insulting. not everyone who doesn't play in [u]any[/u] band at all is a sad case. I don't for a very specific reason, I have lost some of the use of my left hand/arm, and will probobly never get it back - I know that I will unlikely be good enough to play in a band again - so I play for my own pleasure while I try to come to terms with this disability, and essentially learn to play all over again, working out a technique that will be suitable for my situation. I do talk about what I have done in the past, and I do try to guide my son who plays bass, and his band, to avoid them making the same mistakes I made in the past.....and based on your comment this makes me a sad case does it.....well thank you very much.[/quote]
You have my sincere apologies - I am certainly not trying to imply that people in your situation are sad cases. And, I'm certainly not having a pop at anyone that chooses not to be in a band if that suits them.

I think "Eight's" post put it better than I but, at the risk of digging myself deeper into a hole, there are individuals out there that talk a good job and knock those that actively do something (and by "do" I mean play in any capacity in a situation that suits them). If you ever watched "The League of Gentlemen", the former member of "Creme Brulee" was what I had in mind.

Again, apologies if you found my post insulting. I'm not in the habit of trying to upset anyone here and I admire your tenacity at continuing to play despite a disability.

Edited December 13, 2009 by thinman

[arsenic]

[quote name='thinman' post='683296' date='Dec 13 2009, 07:40 PM']You have my sincere apologies - I am certainly not trying to imply that people in your situation are sad cases. And, I'm certainly not having a pop at anyone that chooses not to be in a band if that suits them.

I think "Eight's" post put it better than I but, at the risk of digging myself deeper into a hole, there are individuals out there that talk a good job and knock those that actively do something (and by "do" I mean play in any capacity in a situation that suits them). If you ever watched "The League of Gentlemen", the former member of "Creme Brulee" was what I had in mind.

Again, apologies if you found my post insulting. I'm not in the habit of trying to upset anyone here and I admire your tenacity at continuing to play despite a disability.[/quote]

Thank you for clarifying that, and under the circumstances I appologise for my misunderstanding.

I too try not to upset anyone, and I have often read a post several times before commiting it to the forum, for exactly this reason.

anyway as far as I am concerned, all's well that ends well.

Thanks again for the clarification, and with that explanation - you have nothing to apologise for.

Edited December 13, 2009 by arsenic