Light Cab Vs Heavey Cab

[fenderiko]

hello all,
well, this is very confusing ,
I see lots of great cabs about but some of them seem to be so heavy and some extremely light.
Now , the very obvious question is :

why designing them so heavy in the first place ? surely people rather not lift more weight ? ?
what is making then so heavy ? the wood ? driver ?
how can a heavy Cab can be compared with a lighter one in terms of sound ?
also how can a small cab like the GK that I always see carried around on public transport can be any good ? ? surly if that was any good all cabs would be as small and portable ( I agree that they may not look as cool

apologies if this is very obvious to you all ,,, I was trying to find the answer but with no luck ,

ta
Rachel

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

[quote name='fenderiko' post='620191' date='Oct 7 2009, 08:22 PM']why designing them so heavy in the first place ? surely people rather not lift more weight ? ?
what is making then so heavy ? the wood ? driver ?[/quote] Older drivers with ceramic magnets can weigh two to four times what newer neo magnet drivers weigh. Cabs made of cheap particle board or MDF will be heavier than those made of plywood. Well braced cabs made of 12mm plywood will weigh less than poorly braced cabs made of 18mm plywood. Birch is heavier than Poplar. There are many reasons why some cabs are light and some weigh a ton. But weight alone isn't an accurate predictor of how any speaker will sound.

[Mr. Foxen]

Cheaper to make a cab out of few bits of thick wood than labour intensive bracing and pre-stressing and such with thin wood. Plus heavy cabs give a impression of quality, and possibly less inclination to take a wander when rocking them.

[Monz]

I have played through ultra-light medium weight and heavy cabs, in my experience the heavier quality made cabs * give the best sound and everything else seems to be a trade off for weight they all perform ok but when you get to LOUD levels the lightweights seem to loose the ability to punch the sound forward and in the case of the ultra lightweights seem to vibrate rather violently



* I know there are heavyweight sh*te cabs too

[thumperbob 2002]

[quote name='Monz' post='620452' date='Oct 8 2009, 12:21 PM']I have played through ultra-light medium weight and heavy cabs, in my experience the heavier quality made cabs * give the best sound and everything else seems to be a trade off for weight they all perform ok but when you get to LOUD levels the lightweights seem to loose the ability to punch the sound forward and in the case of the ultra lightweights seem to vibrate rather violently



* I know there are heavyweight sh*te cabs too[/quote]

My old Marshall 4 x 12 vbc cab sounded awesome and loud but the weight of the thing was a major disadvantage. My Schroeder 1212L and 1515L together are a lot less weight than the Marshall but about ten times the price- you pay for quality sound and portability!

I too have played through some pretty crappy heavy cabs and much prefer new technology.

bob

[alexclaber]

[quote name='Monz' post='620452' date='Oct 8 2009, 12:21 PM']...but when you get to LOUD levels the lightweights seem to loose the ability to punch the sound forward...[/quote]

Depending on your idea of how loud LOUD is, I'd say that it isn't weight that matters but size. Obviously larger cabs are heavier but they don't have to be HEAVY! Ask too much of any speaker and it'll go 'blah', whether or not the cab's made of foamcore composite or concrete.

Alex

Edited October 8, 2009 by alexclaber

[endorka]

I recall reading somewhere once, with respect to speaker cabs:

cheap, loud, good: you can have two of these.

I paraphrase, but the idea seems to work.

Jennifer

[alexclaber]

[quote name='endorka' post='620590' date='Oct 8 2009, 02:28 PM']I recall reading somewhere once, with respect to speaker cabs:

cheap, loud, good: you can have two of these.

I paraphrase, but the idea seems to work.[/quote]

The original statement is referred to as Hoffman's Iron Law. Loud (i.e. sensitive), small (in total cab volume), deep (how low the bass response extends) - you can only have two out of three. However much money you have, you cannot beat the law - it's constrained by the physics of loudspeakers.

Alex

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

[quote name='Monz' post='620452' date='Oct 8 2009, 07:21 AM']when you get to LOUD levels the lightweights seem to loose the ability to punch the sound forward and in the case of the ultra lightweights seem to vibrate rather violently[/quote]There's a right way to build light weight cabs, which when employed will vibrate less than heavy cabs while sounding better, and there's a wrong way. One guess which applies to the lightweights you tried.

[51m0n]

[quote name='Bill Fitzmaurice' post='620601' date='Oct 8 2009, 02:38 PM']There's a right way to build light weight cabs, which when employed will vibrate less than heavy cabs while sounding better, and there's a wrong way. One guess which applies to the lightweights you tried. [/quote]

+1!!

[tayste_2000]

[quote name='Bill Fitzmaurice' post='620200' date='Oct 8 2009, 02:43 AM']Older drivers with ceramic magnets can weigh two to four times what newer neo magnet drivers weigh. Cabs made of cheap particle board or MDF will be heavier than those made of plywood. Well braced cabs made of 12mm plywood will weigh less than poorly braced cabs made of 18mm plywood. Birch is heavier than Poplar. There are many reasons why some cabs are light and some weigh a ton. But weight alone isn't an accurate predictor of how any speaker will sound.[/quote]

Very true but I assume you'd agree the quality/density of wood is important as well not just the thickness.

[tayste_2000]

[quote name='alexclaber' post='620578' date='Oct 8 2009, 02:20 PM']Depending on your idea of how loud LOUD is, I'd say that it isn't weight that matters but size. Obviously larger cabs are heavier but they don't have to be HEAVY! Ask too much of any speaker and it'll go 'blah', whether or not the cab's made of foamcore composite or concrete.

Alex[/quote]

I agree with this I had an EA NM410 very light but very qide, very difficult to carry, then I have my Matamp 4x10 (Non Neo) a lot heavier than the EA but easier to move as it isn't as wide.

[Monz]

[quote name='Bill Fitzmaurice' post='620601' date='Oct 8 2009, 02:38 PM']There's a right way to build light weight cabs, which when employed will vibrate less than heavy cabs while sounding better, and there's a wrong way. One guess which applies to the lightweights you tried. [/quote]

As I said in my experience... limited though it is, the comparison was between a newly designed 2 x 12 that I had made as a one off by Matamp, a Markbass 1 x 15 and the Barefaced Compact. Whilst the Markbass and Barefaced were very good at what they did there seemed to be a point at which they struggled whereas the 2x12 just seemed to keep going, and also the Matamp didn't vibrate at all and was louder than the other two. My assessment was also backed up by another BCer who was there at the time.

Just in case it makes any difference the amps used to test them were both all valve... a GT200 and a Simms Watts PA100

The above is not meant to be deragatory towards any of the manufacturers they are just the results I got

[alexclaber]

[quote name='Monz' post='620647' date='Oct 8 2009, 03:21 PM']As I said in my experience... limited though it is, the comparison was between a newly designed 2 x 12 that I had made as a one off by Matamp, a Markbass 1 x 15 and the Barefaced Compact. Whilst the Markbass and Barefaced were very good at what they did there seemed to be a point at which they struggled whereas the 2x12 just seemed to keep going, and also the Matamp didn't vibrate at all and was louder than the other two. My assessment was also backed up by another BCer who was there at the time.

Just in case it makes any difference the amps used to test them were both all valve... a GT200 and a Simms Watts PA100[/quote]

One thing I've found with the Compact is that it doesn't get on very well with lower power valve amps - they seem to struggle with the impedance curve of the high forcefactor motor and consequently run out of power long before the Compact really gets going. Use a heftier valve amp, a powerful solidstate amp or a pair of Compacts (which ups the efficiency so the amp doesn't have to work so hard) and it's an entirely different story.

So yes, the amp makes a HUGE difference!

Alex

[alexclaber]

[quote name='tayste_2000' post='620643' date='Oct 8 2009, 03:17 PM']I agree with this I had an EA NM410 very light but very qide, very difficult to carry, then I have my Matamp 4x10 (Non Neo) a lot heavier than the EA but easier to move as it isn't as wide.[/quote]

No, I didn't mean size matters more for portability than weight does, I meant that size has a measurable effect on output (though it's complex) whilst weight has no effect whatsoever (assuming rigidity is maintained).

Alex

[Mr. Foxen]

[quote name='alexclaber' post='620673' date='Oct 8 2009, 03:50 PM']One thing I've found with the Compact is that it doesn't get on very well with lower power valve amps - they seem to struggle with the impedance curve of the high forcefactor motor and consequently run out of power long before the Compact really gets going. Use a heftier valve amp, a powerful solidstate amp or a pair of Compacts (which ups the efficiency so the amp doesn't have to work so hard) and it's an entirely different story.

So yes, the amp makes a HUGE difference!

Alex[/quote]

What sorta outputs are you calling low/hefty? And how far either side of nominal does the impedance swing in a Compact compared to an oldschool ceramic type speaker?

[tayste_2000]

[quote name='alexclaber' post='620675' date='Oct 8 2009, 03:52 PM']No, I didn't mean size matters more for portability than weight does, I meant that size has a measurable effect on output (though it's complex) whilst weight has no effect whatsoever (assuming rigidity is maintained).

Alex[/quote]

Fair enough but on that, the Matamp 4x10 sounds alot better than the EA one did, I'm not aware of the volumes (not loudness) of the cabs as the Matamp is deeper but the EA was wider, both are ported cabs.

I was always under the impression that density of wood had a large part to play maybe this is what you mean by rigidity but if the sides of a cab are vibrating heavily then energy is being expelled sideways and not straight forward like we want, maybe this refers the rigidity. I was at a gig and some guy brought some home made mdf and chipboard cabs and they were rigid, I could jump on them if I wanted, they were big and quite light but the back flapped forwards and backwards like a speaker due to the thin wood used there, but all the while still rigid (as in square and you can stand on it without it collapsing)

[Mr. Foxen]

[quote name='tayste_2000' post='620702' date='Oct 8 2009, 04:12 PM']Fair enough but on that, the Matamp 4x10 sounds alot better than the EA one did, I'm not aware of the volumes (not loudness) of the cabs as the Matamp is deeper but the EA was wider, both are ported cabs.

I was always under the impression that density of wood had a large part to play maybe this is what you mean by rigidity but if the sides of a cab are vibrating heavily then energy is being expelled sideways and not straight forward like we want, maybe this refers the rigidity. I was at a gig and some guy brought some home made mdf and chipboard cabs and they were rigid, I could jump on them if I wanted, they were big and quite light but the back flapped forwards and backwards like a speaker due to the thin wood used there, but all the while still rigid (as in square and you can stand on it without it collapsing)[/quote]

Flapping backward and foward = not rigid. Weakest link is the back, pressure is equal in all directions, and thats where the energy is lost.

[tayste_2000]

[quote name='Mr. Foxen' post='620709' date='Oct 8 2009, 04:18 PM']Flapping backward and foward = not rigid. Weakest link is the back, pressure is equal in all directions, and thats where the energy is lost.[/quote]

Yep, but obviously that depends on your definition of rigid but I would agree on a speaker cab back moving = not rigid

But if you just the cab on a whole, it could be classed as rigid as a cube

[alexclaber]

[quote name='Mr. Foxen' post='620697' date='Oct 8 2009, 04:09 PM']What sorta outputs are you calling low/hefty? And how far either side of nominal does the impedance swing in a Compact compared to an oldschool ceramic type speaker?[/quote]

100W valve is low. 300W is hefty. I do think that there's more to it than the power rating though.

The impedance of the Compact doesn't swing any more than a really high quality old 15", the kind with magnets that weigh as much as a small horse. But the cheap speakers that tended to be used in bass amps have much smaller magnets and therefore much lower peaks at resonance and weaker cone control - the former is easier for a transformer coupled amp to drive, the latter gives more bass from a lower powered amp.

Alex

[Mr. Foxen]

[quote name='alexclaber' post='620717' date='Oct 8 2009, 04:24 PM']100W valve is low. 300W is hefty. I do think that there's more to it than the power rating though.

The impedance of the Compact doesn't swing any more than a really high quality old 15", the kind with magnets that weigh as much as a small horse. But the cheap speakers that tended to be used in bass amps have much smaller magnets and therefore much lower peaks at resonance and weaker cone control - the former is easier for a transformer coupled amp to drive, the latter gives more bass from a lower powered amp.

Alex[/quote]

So is the Vintage happy with a 50w valve head? What other factors are significant?

And when you say running out of power, will that mean clipping and valve drive sorta sounds? Cause JoeGarcia was loving a 100w valve head into the Compact and he is all about filthy valve drive sounds.

Edited October 8, 2009 by Mr. Foxen

[alexclaber]

[quote name='Mr. Foxen' post='620728' date='Oct 8 2009, 04:35 PM']So is the Vintage happy with a 50w valve head? What other factors are significant?

And when you say running out of power, will that mean clipping and valve drive sorta sounds? Cause JoeGarcia was loving a 100w valve head into the Compact and he is all about filthy valve drive sounds.[/quote]

Yes, dirt et al. It's too hideously overcomplicated to generalise which is why I ask potential customers a lot of questions to make sure they end up with the right cab.

Alex

[fenderiko]

This s very very interesting,,thanks so much for all your input !!!

So , if there are such materials and techniques to make cabs lighter yet sound brillinat and still be big then why arent most of the cab makers dont apply the same idea ? if one can make an amp sound good through a light but big Cab then how come the rest of the makers arent doing the same ? as I mentioned before , surly that would win many of the clients out there ,( getting a big looking cab yet lighter ,,,)

and another one just for Alex :

[quote name='alexclaber' post='620597' date='Oct 8 2009, 02:36 PM']The original statement is referred to as Hoffman's Iron Law. Loud (i.e. sensitive), small (in total cab volume), deep (how low the bass response extends) - you can only have two out of three. However much money you have, you cannot beat the law - it's constrained by the physics of loudspeakers.[/quote]


you talked earlier about the 3 parameters, whilst you designed your cabs in your models did you have to sacrifice one parameter ( If I can call these parameter ) ? if so , which one ?

big thanks again ,

R

[Mr. Foxen]

[quote name='fenderiko' post='620809' date='Oct 8 2009, 05:47 PM']So , if there are such materials and techniques to make cabs lighter yet sound brillinat and still be big then why arent most of the cab makers dont apply the same idea ? if one can make an amp sound good through a light but big Cab then how come the rest of the makers arent doing the same ? as I mentioned before , surly that would win many of the clients out there ,( getting a big looking cab yet lighter ,,,)[/quote]

Labour intensive and don't lend themselves to mass manufacture.

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

[quote name='Mr. Foxen' post='620822' date='Oct 8 2009, 01:07 PM']Labour intensive and don't lend themselves to mass manufacture.[/quote]What they don't lend themselves to is high profit margins.