Stripping and staining walnut body - advice please

[Grooverjr]

I got a Kramer 450b last year and despite the fact that it weighs a ton and it's not exactly the easiest thing to play I love it. What I don't love is the colour of the body (and the less said about the wooden inserts on the back of the neck, the better). I don't know if it was originally a kind of orangey-brown or if it has changed over the years but I suppose it is 'period corect' for the 70s - i.e. nasty. It also has quite a few little dings and chips, but nothing serious.

It's a 4 piece walnut body and the pieces match pretty well but they're not all that interesting, figuring wise. In the neck pocket where it hasn't been varnished the wood looks quite pinky-red and I am thinking of stripping it down to the bare wood and seeing if I want to keep it that colour or, if not, staining it black. With the ebanol board and the aluminium I think it would look pretty good. Certainly better than what it is now.

I am hardly an expert at woodworking (a couple of pieces of furniture rescued and revived is my lot) and I have no decent tools but I think I can manage a sand down and refinish if there's no spraying involved. That said, I have a solid history of underestimating the difficulties of just about everything so before I mess it up completely I thought it best to check if any of you far more experienced lovely people have any advice / top tips / recommendations. 

 

[Beedster]

Mmm, that could be a quick and easy job or it could be a lengthy nightmare. It will almost certainly look better stripped and oiled but as you say, it's not an interesting or even especially attractive grain, so the improvement might be marginal at best. I stripped an ash body a while back and used black tinted wax, which lifted the grain nicely, might work on this bass?

 

 

[Grooverjr]

Thanks @Beedster. I wasn't aware of wood wax, but that looks really nice. Agreed on the grain being a bit dull but it might be better once it is stripped and revealed and almost anything looks decent in black! 

[Norris]

Ash has a very pronounced,  textured grain, so looks good as a single colour or with a grain filler and translucent top coat. Walnut has a much smoother grain and you might struggle to see it.

[BigRedX]

The poly finish applied to Kramer instruments from the 70s is a complete bastard to remove. Don't ask me how I know.

 

You'll need a good power sander, a LOT of course grit sandpaper, a well ventilated space to work in, and MANY hours of free time before you'll get to see any bare wood.

 

And be very careful removing and replacing the wooden pickup surrounds as they are prone to damage and the ones on your bass still appear to be complete which is a rare thing in itself.

[NJE]

Poly is a pain, heat gun maybe to see what you can get off before taking a sander to it? 
 

I have just done some furniture in a lovely oil and wax finish, and I might try and do a guitar using the same kind of finish one day. Got my finished from a company in Devon? https://gilboys.co.uk/collections/beeswax-wood-furniture-polishes

[Grooverjr]

1 hour ago, BigRedX said:

The poly finish applied to Kramer instruments from the 70s is a complete bastard to remove. Don't ask me how I know.

 

You'll need a good power sander, a LOT of course grit sandpaper, a well ventilated space to work in, and MANY hours of free time before you'll get to see any bare wood.

 

And be very careful removing and replacing the wooden pickup surrounds as they are prone to damage and the ones on your bass still appear to be complete which is a rare thing in itself.

Ah, I was dreading that kind of answer, but at the same time it was exactly why I asked the question so thanks for the warning.

I can see from the area under the neck screw plate that the finish is very gloppy. I don't have a power sander or a well-ventilated space to work in (small flat, basic toolbox - good name for an experimental album 😁). Looks like I might need to just live with it being an ugly duck until we get going on a building project we have in mind for the next year or two and then I should have access to both.

I have been warned about the surrounds and the whole pup fixing / height adjustment sensitivity so I will be very careful with that when the time comes.

[Grooverjr]

35 minutes ago, NJE said:

Poly is a pain, heat gun maybe to see what you can get off before taking a sander to it? 
 

I have just done some furniture in a lovely oil and wax finish, and I might try and do a guitar using the same kind of finish one day. Got my finished from a company in Devon? https://gilboys.co.uk/collections/beeswax-wood-furniture-polishes

That looks like nice stuff. I used mineral oil (stuff they use to help seal chopping boards, not the brake fluid!) and beeswax on a table with a rather uninspiring grain and colour and it does a great job of accentuating what is there without changing anything too much, so that may also be an option when the time comes, although it does need quite regular retouching. 

[Beedster]

Having sanded a similarly finished bass - and regretted both the time and the results - I'd recommend a stripper, it will take a few coats and some elbow grease, but it will be a whole lot less hassle and will significantly reduce the risk of over-sanding  

[Beedster]

5 hours ago, Norris said:

Ash has a very pronounced,  textured grain, so looks good as a single colour or with a grain filler and translucent top coat. Walnut has a much smoother grain and you might struggle to see it.

Yes agreed, but the right degree of finishing (I went fine but not too fin with the sandpaper), and the right oil and wax and even a linear and relatively low contrast grain can look good, I'm about to do the same to this walnut body, although as you can see, I've been slightly more fortunate with the grain.....

 

  

[Grooverjr]

44 minutes ago, Beedster said:

Having sanded a similarly finished bass - and regretted both the time and the results - I'd recommend a stripper, it will take a few coats and some elbow grease, but it will be a whole lot less hassle and will significantly reduce the risk of over-sanding  

I prefer to avoid heavy chemicals due to the lack of ventilation but the neighbous are away for a couple of weeks so the shared landing might be an option. I need to go and get some other painting and wood finishing bits anyway (1980s build flat, doors and skirting need a bit of sorting out) so I'll see what I can pick up. 

I'm not worried about resale value as Bolivia has no market for this kind of thing and I couldn't play it standing up for more than 5 minutes without giving myself a serious shoulder problem so even if I do make a mess of things noone will see it.

[Beedster]

1 hour ago, Grooverjr said:

I prefer to avoid heavy chemicals

 

I give you a week of sanding to no apparent effect to revise your thinking 🤣

 

All joking aside, that was my thinking also, and still is, so if I absolutely had to strip a finish like that I'd take it to a professional, although probably not a music professional, you might might find a painter, furniture restorer or similar who'll do it for you at much lower cost than a luthier. 

 

Very unlikely and others who know the manufacturer/instrument will know better, but you might be very lucky and find that it's one of those finishes that you can pretty much peel off once you get under it?  

[Beedster]

I'm also going to be stripping this soon (think it's also walnut), although it appears to be a very thin finish luckily. There is virtually no grain to speak of but I hope to bring out what's there as much as possible before finishing 👍

 

[BigRedX]

The poly finish I tried to remove from my 70s Kramer was very thick and well bonded to the wood. It was a solid colour finish so just a clear coat might not be quite so difficult to remove...

 

Having said that, none of the chemical strippers available to the general public 10-15 years ago when I was doing mine were successful in doing much to the finish other than making it look slightly worse after a couple of applications. I didn't want to use a heat gun because I was hoping to preserve the look of the natural wood beneath the colour without burning it. I ended up spending about an hour a day for 2-3 weeks - an hour being the maximum amount of time I could stand holding the power sander, getting the finish off and then sanding the underlying wood smooth. If I was in the same situation again I would either live with the dents in the existing finish or pay a professional to do the job.

 

Not trying to put you off, but just ensuring that you are realistic with your expectations.

[spencer.b]

Very cool bass , apologies that this isn't what you're asking about but are you sure about refinishing a valuable vintage bass ? Is it one your keeping forever?, it's not my favourite colour either but it is very period 

Edited yesterday at 18:49 by spencer.b

[TimR]

Find a local door stripping company. They might dip it in with a batch of doors. They'd also give you a professional opinion on whether it would be easier and quicker to throw it in the skip and buy a donor bass off ebay. 

 

Edit: my local guys charge £35 a door. 

 

 

Edited 22 hours ago by TimR

[Grooverjr]

17 hours ago, spencer.b said:

Very cool bass , apologies that this isn't what you're asking about but are you sure about refinishing a valuable vintage bass ? Is it one your keeping forever?, it's not my favourite colour either but it is very period 

If I was in the UK I would probably think twice but I now (and presumably forever) live in a place where there is no chance of me ever getting anythig like what I paid for it, or anythig over about a hundred quid, so there is no point thinking about it in those terms. 

[Grooverjr]

Points taken on the need for chemical assistance and the corrollary of professional assistance. Unfortunately attention to detail and high skill levels are not hallmarks of the trades in La Paz so I am not too keen on getting a random carpenter involved. There is a furniture restorer nearby and what's in his window looks ok so if I have a spare hour or two I'll strip the body of all the gubbins and take it down to him to see what he can do. 

[BigRedX]

19 hours ago, spencer.b said:

Very cool bass , apologies that this isn't what you're asking about but are you sure about refinishing a valuable vintage bass ? Is it one your keeping forever?, it's not my favourite colour either but it is very period 

 

Very true. If this was a Fender bass from the same era, this thread would have probably generated an outcry with posts full of words like "mojo" and "vintage". However 70s Kramers are an oddity only really interesting to enthusiasts of aluminium basses (like myself). Having said that the body colour isn't the most attractive, and if this bass was mine and I hadn't already had a poor experience trying to strip a 70s Kramer bass, I might be tempted to change it.

[BigRedX]

16 hours ago, TimR said:

Find a local door stripping company. They might dip it in with a batch of doors. They'd also give you a professional opinion on whether it would be easier and quicker to throw it in the skip and buy a donor bass off ebay. 

 

Edit: my local guys charge £35 a door. 

 

Personally I wouldn't take this to a door stripping company even in the UK. The chemicals used are rather too aggressive in order to get the job done with the minimum of fuss and you are likely to end up with 4 separate pieces of wood. Doors mostly survive because they are held together by woodworking joints and nails although it is always best to re-glue them after the stripping process.

[Grooverjr]

1 hour ago, BigRedX said:

 

Very true. If this was a Fender bass from the same era, this thread would have probably generated an outcry with posts full of words like "mojo" and "vintage". However 70s Kramers are an oddity only really interesting to enthusiasts of aluminium basses (like myself). Having said that the body colour isn't the most attractive, and if this bass was mine and I hadn't already had a poor experience trying to strip a 70s Kramer bass, I might be tempted to change it.

That is kind of my position. It's great because of the neck and the pups, not the body shape or colour and I think instruments are to be played and enjoyed.  Also, I think the headstock is very attractive and the pups, bridge and knobs are all great so if the body can be a better colour I am doing the bass a favour, regardless of its vintage.

[Beedster]

2 minutes ago, Grooverjr said:

That is kind of my position. It's great because of the neck and the pups, not the body shape or colour and I think instruments are to be played and enjoyed.  Also, I think the headstock is very attractive and the pups, bridge and knobs are all great so if the body can be a better colour I am doing the bass a favour, regardless of its vintage.

Refin in solid colour over the varnish?

[Grooverjr]

16 minutes ago, Beedster said:

Refin in solid colour over the varnish?

That could be an option. It would look great in an off white. All the dings are surface chips of the finish so they could be filled in easily enough in prep. But I will likely come up against the same issue with finding someone who can do a decent job. 

[TimR]

4 hours ago, BigRedX said:

 

Personally I wouldn't take this to a door stripping company even in the UK. The chemicals used are rather too aggressive in order to get the job done with the minimum of fuss and you are likely to end up with 4 separate pieces of wood. Doors mostly survive because they are held together by woodworking joints and nails although it is always best to re-glue them after the stripping process.

 

They'd glue back together pretty easily.

 

They'd at least be able to tell you whether it's likely to work.

 

I'd rather spend £50 on someone with some expertise than two weeks in my back garden and end up with a lung disease and RSI.