PA systems

[Happy Jack]

We're a 5-piece playing pub gigs. All of us sing, both lead and BV's. The keyboard player likes to route some of his sound through the board.

We use my PA: Alesis 12 mixer through a Carlsbro PowerLine (claimed 400W per channel) through a pair of McGregor 1x12's. I also have a pair of Class D (that's the brand name) 1x10's which can be used either as tops or as wedges for foldback.

I struggled for a while finding a way to run the wedges as well as the tops, before I finally realised that I could use the second channel on my bass power amp to drive them. Much cheaper and lighter than using powered monitors.

The sole problem I've hit is that the Alesis 12 only has four XLR inputs. That would usually be plenty, but with five vocal mics it means that one mic has to go through a 1/4" socket with no Gain control. OK for BV's but useless for lead vocals. We give that one to the drummer - he comes out from behind the kit for his Phil Collins moment anyway.

Virtually everything was bought through eBay, and each of the main components cost roughly £100 - mixer, power amp, tops, wedges. Add on some cheap poles & cables from Thomann (the exchange rate was a LOT better then!) and the whole thing has cost me about £500.

Earlier posts on this thread about ownership of / responsibility for the PA are spot on, which is why I insist on actually owning the damned thing. Everyone acts as if it's my job to bring it and set it up, get rid of the feedback and sort the cables, etc., so I might as well be using my own kit.

What always tickles me is that my PA 'expertise' (bwa ha ha ha) has led the rest of the band to see me as the techie of the group. Those of you familiar with my technical abilities can stop sniggering now ...

Edited May 21, 2009 by Happy Jack

[High score]

[quote name='Happy Jack' post='494159' date='May 21 2009, 12:43 PM']We're a 5-piece playing pub gigs.............

Earlier posts on this thread about ownership of / responsibility for the PA are spot on, which is why I insist on actually owning the damned thing. Everyone acts as if it's my job to bring it and set it up, get rid of the feedback and sort the cables, etc., so I might as well be using my own kit.

What always tickles me is that my PA 'expertise' (bwa ha ha ha) has led the rest of the band to see me as the techie of the group. Those of you familiar with my technical abilities can stop sniggering now ...[/quote]


You are so right - no one loves PA gear unless they own it!! It seems to scare a lot of people off as being too complex.........

To be honest, that is how I ended up doing sound in a much bigger way. I initially ''inherited'' the desk and gear and found I was sad enough to enjoy sitting in darkened corners surrounded by flashing lights .................sad or what???

By the way, you can get a small, dual box that will allow two mics to be linked into one xlr..........

[alexclaber]

[quote name='Happy Jack' post='494159' date='May 21 2009, 12:43 PM']What always tickles me is that my PA 'expertise' (bwa ha ha ha) has led the rest of the band to see me as the techie of the group. Those of you familiar with my technical abilities can stop sniggering now ...[/quote]



One thing I have pondered is doing a large PA cab based around the Big One - so a 15" high-excursion woofer, high output 6.5" mid and then a nice compression tweeter. It wouldn't be small but would still weigh in at under 50lbs so very manageable and you could put a pair on short-ish stands and play a pretty large gig (the kind that would normally demand decent 1x12" tops and a couple of decent subs) with just a pair of cabs, no subs.

As someone that's gigged with a Big One and has a feel for its size and output, what do you think of that?

Alex

[OldGit]

[quote name='alexclaber' post='494177' date='May 21 2009, 01:00 PM']

One thing I have pondered is doing a large PA cab based around the Big One - so a 15" high-excursion woofer, high output 6.5" mid and then a nice compression tweeter. It wouldn't be small but would still weigh in at under 50lbs so very manageable and you could put a pair on short-ish stands and play a pretty large gig (the kind that would normally demand decent 1x12" tops and a couple of decent subs) with just a pair of cabs, no subs.

As someone that's gigged with a Big One and has a feel for its size and output, what do you think of that?

Alex[/quote]


Smaller units are easier to handle, store and add to ...

[High score]

[quote name='alexclaber' post='494177' date='May 21 2009, 01:00 PM']

One thing I have pondered is doing a large PA cab based around the Big One - so a 15" high-excursion woofer, high output 6.5" mid and then a nice compression tweeter. It wouldn't be small but would still weigh in at under 50lbs so very manageable and you could put a pair on short-ish stands and play a pretty large gig (the kind that would normally demand decent 1x12" tops and a couple of decent subs) with just a pair of cabs, no subs.

As someone that's gigged with a Big One and has a feel for its size and output, what do you think of that?

Alex[/quote]


This type of full range kit already exists but tends to be floor standing and getting into 60kg a speaker. I have used mackie versions and they have awesome high powered output but don't mix well with other gear suffering frequency overlap if speakers were too close to them leading to signal cancellation.

Do you think you could achieve the weights you quote though?? You explored pa build already Alex?

[51m0n]

[quote name='alexclaber' post='494177' date='May 21 2009, 01:00 PM']

One thing I have pondered is doing a large PA cab based around the Big One - so a 15" high-excursion woofer, high output 6.5" mid and then a nice compression tweeter. It wouldn't be small but would still weigh in at under 50lbs so very manageable and you could put a pair on short-ish stands and play a pretty large gig (the kind that would normally demand decent 1x12" tops and a couple of decent subs) with just a pair of cabs, no subs.

As someone that's gigged with a Big One and has a feel for its size and output, what do you think of that?

Alex[/quote]

I'd love to see it, I think it would be getting on for hifi quality at monstrous levels out of two boxes

You would be best marketing this as a rig that is as louder and equally full range as 2 1x12 mid tops + 2 1x15 subs in just 2 boxes about the size as most subs, so people are saving the size of the mid tops,

Then design a monitor based around your midget (it would be comparable in size to a 1x12 mid top in all probability. Add two of those to the system and sell the lot for less than a similar spec big PA.

In all likelihood people would be able to throw in excess of 3K into the pair of BigOne based bins (more like 4K if they could find an amp capable), and a good 2K into the monitors (feedback permitting)

Coupled with the right amps and a dbx driverack that would be the best 'small' PA in the world, and should definitely be capable of coping with kick drums and bass/keys/vox/guitar - much to everyones surprise!!!

Definietly the best direct radiating mid top/full range speakers anyways.

Getting that across to people in the PA world may be quite tricky (esp DJ types who put a lot of store in subs).

For anyone like that just tell them to hook it up with 4 BFM Tuba 36's

That would do it! (ie knock the back wall of the venue down)

[Happy Jack]

[quote name='alexclaber' post='494177' date='May 21 2009, 01:00 PM']

One thing I have pondered is doing a large PA cab based around the Big One - so a 15" high-excursion woofer, high output 6.5" mid and then a nice compression tweeter. It wouldn't be small but would still weigh in at under 50lbs so very manageable and you could put a pair on short-ish stands and play a pretty large gig (the kind that would normally demand decent 1x12" tops and a couple of decent subs) with just a pair of cabs, no subs.

As someone that's gigged with a Big One and has a feel for its size and output, what do you think of that?

Alex[/quote]

Some interesting replies to that question above, but for my band that would be overkill x100. We're barely using half the power available from the PowerLine and the 12" tops are doing fine.

I actually had a pair of 15" subs as part of the PA for a few gigs last year. Sold them just after Xmas as being [i]not wanted on voyage[/i].

If I ever start landing gigs at serious venues - or playing outdoors venues, of course - then a Big One based solution would be truly awesome.

[Happy Jack]

[quote name='High score' post='494175' date='May 21 2009, 12:57 PM']By the way, you can get a small, dual box that will allow two mics to be linked into one xlr..........[/quote]

I didn't know that - what should I be looking for, and where?

[casapete]

Did a gig last week with my country/rock band in a large hotel ballroom. Band line up is guitar,piano,drums and bass, all going through the PA along with 4 vocal mikes too. Used our guitar players PA - Yamaha 16 ch.desk, 2 Yamaha P3500 power amps into 2 pairs of Bose 801s and a pair of Peavey Hisys 2 15" cabs for bass. The sound was awesome! Loud as hell and with clarity. Despite being a relatively old school system it just worked great ,
yet reasonably portable too. The Bose cabs are quite old,yet still sound fine.

No mention made yet of EV SX200/300's. I use a pair of these with a Yamaha powered mixer in a duo (acoustic electric guitar&bass,2 vocals) and it does the job fine for small/medium venues. Had pair of Peavey Impulse cabs before that,which were okay but not as good as the EV's-fair enough as they were 2/3 of the price.

[High score]

[quote name='Happy Jack' post='494300' date='May 21 2009, 02:38 PM']I didn't know that - what should I be looking for, and where?[/quote]


there are others but have a look here:


[url="http://www.artproaudio.com/products.asp?type=90&cat=13&id=138"]http://www.artproaudio.com/products.asp?ty...t=13&id=138[/url]

hope this helps - used ART gear before and like it.............

[alexclaber]

[quote name='High score' post='494229' date='May 21 2009, 01:41 PM']This type of full range kit already exists but tends to be floor standing and getting into 60kg a speaker. I have used mackie versions and they have awesome high powered output but don't mix well with other gear suffering frequency overlap if speakers were too close to them leading to signal cancellation.

Do you think you could achieve the weights you quote though?? You explored pa build already Alex?[/quote]

My Big Series cabs are basically designed like high-quality PA speakers, just minus the tweeter. For PA use I'd be inclined towards making the box taller and narrower so it's less visually obtrusive and that would allow me to vertically align the mid and tweeter. Would probably use a different midrange speaker which has a bit more output where it would be needed and then a full crossover to the tweeter (the midrange I use in the Big Series goes higher and remains good off-axis remarkably high up but in a PA cab the tweeter would be doing everything up there). Weight-wise could definitely come in under 55lbs or 25kg. Would best be used with an amp that can give each cab 1000W+ (personally I see little point in running many PAs in stereo, so you could bridge a relatively cheap amp into the pair). I suppose one could do a pair for about £1500, so about £2000 with an amp.

My other thinking is to do a smaller main/monitor, again using a 15" so it's loud and can do good bottom, but will go less thunderously low so you'd want subs for bigger gigs. That would be about the size of the Compact and could also be used as a wedge monitor. Wouldn't be much cheaper though. Having heard the pleasure of a 3-way design I think it's well worth making PA cabs like this, particularly for smaller venues where the acoustics are more challenging and hardly anyone is on-axis. For larger venues I'd lean towards 1.4"-2" compression drivers on big horns and high output midwoofers in 2-way biamped cabs as really wide dispersion isn't so beneficial.

I keep looking into amp modules but at the moment the best price/performance is definitely from outboard amps - also looking into designs where amp and cab are a complete system and use DSP driving bi/tri-amped designs.

Alex

[51m0n]

[quote name='High score' post='494229' date='May 21 2009, 01:41 PM']This type of full range kit already exists but tends to be floor standing and getting into 60kg a speaker. I have used mackie versions and they have awesome high powered output but don't mix well with other gear suffering frequency overlap if speakers were too close to them leading to signal cancellation.

Do you think you could achieve the weights you quote though?? You explored pa build already Alex?[/quote]

Yeah we use a pair of JBL monsters (2x15 + horn) they weigh somewhat more than the van we move 'em around in.

The owner of the PA is even then worried about putting too much kick or any bass through them Not an issue with the berg, but still, they are full range for crying out loud!

They do sound the nuts though!

We have subs for them too, but I've never heard it all plumbed in cos thats just silly loud....

[51m0n]

[quote name='alexclaber' post='494365' date='May 21 2009, 03:37 PM']My Big Series cabs are basically designed like high-quality PA speakers, just minus the tweeter. For PA use I'd be inclined towards making the box taller and narrower so it's less visually obtrusive and that would allow me to vertically align the mid and tweeter. Would probably use a different midrange speaker which has a bit more output where it would be needed and then a full crossover to the tweeter (the midrange I use in the Big Series goes higher and remains good off-axis remarkably high up but in a PA cab the tweeter would be doing everything up there). Weight-wise could definitely come in under 55lbs or 25kg. Would best be used with an amp that can give each cab 1000W+ (personally I see little point in running many PAs in stereo, so you could bridge a relatively cheap amp into the pair). I suppose one could do a pair for about £1500, so about £2000 with an amp.

My other thinking is to do a smaller main/monitor, again using a 15" so it's loud and can do good bottom, but will go less thunderously low so you'd want subs for bigger gigs. That would be about the size of the Compact and could also be used as a wedge monitor. Wouldn't be much cheaper though. Having heard the pleasure of a 3-way design I think it's well worth making PA cabs like this, particularly for smaller venues where the acoustics are more challenging and hardly anyone is on-axis. For larger venues I'd lean towards 1.4"-2" compression drivers on big horns and high output midwoofers in 2-way biamped cabs as really wide dispersion isn't so beneficial.

I keep looking into amp modules but at the moment the best price/performance is definitely from outboard amps - also looking into designs where amp and cab are a complete system and use DSP driving bi/tri-amped designs.

Alex[/quote]

If its no cheaper you may well find the extra performance from the bigger cab is going to make more sales. Especially given its weight....

[martinbass7750]

We use a pair of mackie srm450's with a mackie cfx12 mk2 mixer.

I'm very happy with the sound, ease of use etc. We can go pretty loud before feedback sets in.

The old style SRM450's can be bought new with bags for around £800 a pair if you hunt around, and the desk I paid £350 for.

I also have an Allen and Heath mixer which i love, but it's a bit too big for pub venues.

If I could justify it I'd buy A fohn system (I think that's spelt right) - I've heard one several times and just love it.

Edited May 21, 2009 by martinbass7750

[High score]

[quote name='alexclaber' post='494365' date='May 21 2009, 03:37 PM']My Big Series cabs are basically designed like high-quality PA speakers, just minus the tweeter. For PA use I'd be inclined towards making the box taller and narrower so it's less visually obtrusive and that would allow me to vertically align the mid and tweeter. Would probably use a different midrange speaker which has a bit more output where it would be needed and then a full crossover to the tweeter (the midrange I use in the Big Series goes higher and remains good off-axis remarkably high up but in a PA cab the tweeter would be doing everything up there). Weight-wise could definitely come in under 55lbs or 25kg. Would best be used with an amp that can give each cab 1000W+ (personally I see little point in running many PAs in stereo, so you could bridge a relatively cheap amp into the pair). I suppose one could do a pair for about £1500, so about £2000 with an amp.

My other thinking is to do a smaller main/monitor, again using a 15" so it's loud and can do good bottom, but will go less thunderously low so you'd want subs for bigger gigs. That would be about the size of the Compact and could also be used as a wedge monitor. Wouldn't be much cheaper though. Having heard the pleasure of a 3-way design I think it's well worth making PA cabs like this, particularly for smaller venues where the acoustics are more challenging and hardly anyone is on-axis. For larger venues I'd lean towards 1.4"-2" compression drivers on big horns and high output midwoofers in 2-way biamped cabs as really wide dispersion isn't so beneficial.

I keep looking into amp modules but at the moment the best price/performance is definitely from outboard amps - also looking into designs where amp and cab are a complete system and use DSP driving bi/tri-amped designs.

Alex[/quote]


Projected prices are not unreasonable if you consider Mackie C300 passive tops are now around £800 a pair alone. Allegedly full range but we both know they are really suited to mids/ highs. I especially like the thought of a dedicated monitor that will give true low end performance. I've often found this unsatisfactory on stage when doing live sound to be honest and even supplied one band with a small 15'' powered sub and srm450 top as it didn't truly recreate the whole sound on it's own - especially when effects were used. Bass players invariably use their own backline as monitor which I feel creates it's own problems.

Were you planning onboard amp design? Can you buy modules off the shelf? On board cross over?

I remember doing a gig in Bolton where I piggy backed the house gear with mine creating a 20K monster. The house PA was three way - obviously suited to static installation but the sound was staggering and positively hurt the audience if they got too close!!.

Iain

[yorks5stringer]

We use a HK Lucas 600watt system with a seperate very compact Thomann 100w monitor for our singer, that's vocs & bv's through the pa the rest is backline.
As I store and move the PA I wanted something small (Punto) and lightish!
If Barefaced can come up with something more powerful but still "Compact" I'd be interested!

[OldGit]

[quote name='High score' post='494441' date='May 21 2009, 04:38 PM']I remember doing a gig in Bolton where I piggy backed the house gear with mine creating a 20K monster. The house PA was three way - obviously suited to static installation but the sound was staggering and positively hurt the audience if they got too close!!.

Iain[/quote]


We've got a wedding celebration in September in a big gig venue in Bristol with a 15K FoH setup installed. Sadly there's no mixers or anything so we've got to plug our normal setup into it for a little more ooomp .... As we use a 300 watt FoH normally it maybe slightly different. I'm just hoping we can turn it down low enough

Re Passive speaker setups for a small PA: We use a Yamaha mixer amp (and a mackie 12 channel plugged into that as well to give us about 18 channels) with a couple of EV200's.
When we got them and the Yamaha they did indeed transform the sound from our previous no name setup however if I was starting now I'd got for powered speakers like the Mackie or RCF's as the quality and upgradability of it is superior and you can use them in other ways like daisy chained monitors, one box disco solutions with an iPod or whatever, practice amps, small gig bass amps etc..
Oh and they have cool blue lights too

Re Barefaced stage monitors, I think you'd sell more small monitors than 15 inch ones .. They just take up too much real estate for pub bands. An outstanding powered ten inch would be great for us. We currently use a no name powered 10, a mackie350 for the drummer plus some passives.

Re one box Barefaced PA speakers: How would you get the highs to the ears of the people at the back? I'm a numpty but I know if we don't hoist our cabs up to head height plus a foot or two then the highs and clarity disappears into the front row of punters ... if you needed the bins to be on the floor that would be a problem wouldn't it?

Edited May 21, 2009 by OldGit

[High score]

[quote name='OldGit' post='494602' date='May 21 2009, 07:54 PM']We've got a wedding celebration in September in a big gig venue in Bristol with a 15K FoH setup installed. Sadly there's no mixers or anything so we've got to plug our normal setup into it for a little more ooomp .... As we use a 300 watt FoH normally it maybe slightly different. I'm just hoping we can turn it down low enough

Re Passive speaker setups for a small PA: We use a Yamaha mixer amp (and a mackie 12 channel plugged into that as well to give us about 18 channels) with a couple of EV200's.
When we got them and the Yamaha they did indeed transform the sound from our previous no name setup however if I was starting now I'd got for powered speakers like the Mackie or RCF's as the quality and upgradability of it is superior and you can use them in other ways like daisy chained monitors, one box disco solutions with an iPod or whatever, practice amps, small gig bass amps etc..
Oh and they have cool blue lights too

Re Barefaced stage monitors, I think you'd sell more small monitors than 15 inch ones .. They just take up too much real estate for pub bands. An outstanding powered ten inch would be great for us. We currently use a no name powered 10, a mackie350 for the drummer plus some passives.

Re one box Barefaced PA speakers: How would you get the highs to the ears of the people at the back? I'm a numpty but I know if we don't hoist our cabs up to head height plus a foot or two then the highs and clarity disappears into the front row of punters ... if you needed the bins to be on the floor that would be a problem wouldn't it?[/quote]


Hello Si,

Oooo you getting let loose on a big rig then fella?? Enjoy - you'll love it........all that power to play with.............. . Doesn't matter about their desk - yours will control it just as easily so long as you remember that using a sub mixer set up like yours can add to ''signal noise'' which may be noticable at high levels............. just be aware that high output also means any little cock ups in playing are also high lighted !!

Blue Mackie lights? look fab but the little buggers have a rep for blowing. Cos they are mounted on a a mini pcb, cost £70 a pop to get the repair shop to fix it!!

You are quite correct about the height of the tops. Bass lends itself to being on the floor and will sound ''fuller'' because of it. In addition, mids/ tops really should be just above audience head height otherwise clarity gets pretty lost for those behind the front row who will get blasted. That was the issue with the Mackie 1232 columns I used and invariably had them standing on the 18'' subs if there was no stage or platform available

Iain

Edited May 21, 2009 by High score

[OldGit]

[quote name='High score' post='494630' date='May 21 2009, 08:26 PM']Hello Si,

Oooo you getting let loose on a big rig then fella?? Enjoy - you'll love it........all that power to play with.............. . Doesn't matter about their desk - yours will control it just as easily so long as you remember that using a sub mixer set up like yours can add to ''signal noise'' which may be noticable at high levels............. just be aware that high output also means any little cock ups in playing are also high lighted !! [/quote]

Ha ha we'll not be allowed to turn it up

[Deep Thought]

Many thanks to all, especially High Score-exactly what I was after, and much food for thought.

[High score]

[quote name='Deep Thought' post='494699' date='May 21 2009, 10:08 PM']Many thanks to all, especially High Score-exactly what I was after, and much food for thought.[/quote]


Shucks Deep Thought I'm blushing but thanks ...........like I said previously, if you want info on desk setup etc I'm happy to help............