Baloney Balderdash Posted February 19 Share Posted February 19 (edited) 3 hours ago, Dan Dare said: Au contraire. If you learn how great players did/do it, you can use the knowledge and skill you acquire from studying what they did/do to develop your own lines. Standing on the shoulders of giants and all that. You don't do it without actually also practicing improvising and writing basslines in specific, which was my point. If all you ever do is just copying other people you will never learn how to write music yourself. And not least find your own unique voice and style. Do read the context this was said in. Edited February 19 by Baloney Balderdash Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lozz196 Posted February 19 Share Posted February 19 When I started out I took lessons to find out what the notes on the fretboard were, from there I bought the songbook to my fave album, Nevermind The Bollocks by The Sex Pistols and learned to play it. Very inspiring learning the songs of your fave band. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bass_dinger Posted February 19 Share Posted February 19 Here, an example of theory, distilled. Jake from Signals Music took 10 years to learn all the chords- working them out for himself. He created a video, lasting 18 minutes and 33 seconds, teaching viewers all the chords. It is full of theory, but it is all practical knowledge 10 years. Or just under 19 minutes.... Here's another example. On a keyboard, I accidentally played an A flat chord with a B flat in the bass. Technically, it was wrong but I had happened upon the opening chord of The Long And Winding Road. 20 years later, I understood that the chord was an extended chord, and had a name (A flat 11th). Had I learned chord theory, I could have understood it in an afternoon, rather than 20 years. I am a big fan of understanding theory, because it gets me playing music, without having to go through trial and error. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan Dare Posted February 20 Share Posted February 20 (edited) 2 hours ago, Baloney Balderdash said: If all you ever do is just copying other people you will never learn how to write music yourself. And not least find your own unique voice and style. Nobody suggested "just copying other people". The point is to learn what and how they did/do it incorporate that into your own knowledge and use that acquired knowledge and skill to create your own. Given that there are and have been so many great musicians to inspire and guide us, it's stupid (or arrogant) to ignore what they have done. If you don't learn from others, you have to discover everything by trial and error. Life's too short for that. As for "your own unique voice and style", there are few people who are truly unique. Plenty may believe they are, but most are deluding themselves. Edited February 20 by Dan Dare 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baloney Balderdash Posted February 20 Share Posted February 20 (edited) 31 minutes ago, Dan Dare said: As for "your own unique voice and style", there are few people who are truly unique. Plenty may believe they are, but most are deluding themselves. I strongly disagree. In both these claims. But plenty of people, far too many, sadly the vast majority, will tell you just that, will tell themself just that. To the point where they don't even recognize themself anymore. Far too few are ready (daring/capable of) to truly embrace and realize their full potential. And far too underappreciated when someone does, for above exact reasons. I am not suggesting that I truly dare and have accomplished this, but I really do try my best. The world would be a so much better place to be if we just dared to realize our true self, only then will we be fully prepared to embrace other's as well. Everything else you said in that reply, you are making quite a few assumption about stuff I never actually said, and taken completely out of the context they were written in. But to play your game: Is practicing how to improvise and write original music really that horrible of a thing to do, as far as you are concerned? And if that is stupid and arrogant, then what are you? 31 minutes ago, Dan Dare said: Nobody suggested "just copying other people". The point is to learn what and how they did/do it incorporate that into your own knowledge and use that acquired knowledge and skill to create your own. Given that there are and have been so many great musicians to inspire and guide us, it's stupid (or arrogant) to ignore what they have done. If you don't learn from others, you have to discover everything by trial and error. Life's too short for that. As for "your own unique voice and style", there are few people who are truly unique. Plenty may believe they are, but most are deluding themselves. Edited February 20 by Baloney Balderdash Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dmccombe7 Posted February 20 Share Posted February 20 10 hours ago, Lozz196 said: When I started out I took lessons to find out what the notes on the fretboard were, from there I bought the songbook to my fave album, Nevermind The Bollocks by The Sex Pistols and learned to play it. Very inspiring learning the songs of your fave band. Literally how i went with it apart from the choice of music. I went rock and prog. I still have the original music books i learned on. Genesis, Floyd thru to Kiss and Sabbath. Dave 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dmccombe7 Posted February 20 Share Posted February 20 I knew this would end up a debate between taking lessons and self taught. Always does. There's no right way to reach your destination. Simply enjoy the route you take to get there. Sometimes it takes a little longer to get where you want to be but that's ok. Sometimes the destination is different too but once again do we all want to be at the same place at the same time. Gonna get a wee tad busy. Music is fun, enjoy the journey. Be happy. Dave 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cato Posted February 20 Share Posted February 20 (edited) One of the great things about now vs when I started out is the whole YouTube tutorial phenomenon. It basically means you can design your own 'course' , concentrating on the stuff you want to learn be that theory, technique or just learning the tunes you want to play. An you can do it in your own time, on your own terms. Having said that I don't regret the hours I spent playing rewinding cassetes to listen to the same 10 second passage over and over again until I could play it perfectly. I still use the 'listening' skills I developed back then today. Edited February 20 by Cato 3 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dmccombe7 Posted February 20 Share Posted February 20 5 minutes ago, Cato said: One of the great things about now vs when I started out is the whole YouTube tutorial phenomenon. It basically means you can design your own 'course' , concentrating on the stuff you want to learn be that theory, technique or just learning the tunes you want to play. An you can do it in your own time, on your own terms. Having said that I don't regret the hours I spent playing rewinding cassetes to listen to the same 10 second passage over and over again until I could play it perfectly. I still use the 'listening' skills I developed back then today. Happy Days Dave 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SimonK Posted February 20 Share Posted February 20 The "right" way is the way that motivates the player. I did a sports coaching course a few years back and it was really stressed that if kids are not enjoying the sport they will stop playing. I think same goes for music. Perhaps what is reflected above is that it is more fun (mostly!) to play with other people, and thus easier to learn quickly due to the motivation, whereas practicing on your own is harder from a motivational perspective. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
diskwave Posted February 20 Share Posted February 20 The term "music theory" is loaded in all the wrong ways. It conjures up an image of sitting in a dusty wood panelled practise room with an old tutor looking over his half rims at your evry mistake.....exactly how it was for me with my old violin teacher....hated it. Its much better to just... "learn to read music" Get a book and learn some notes, a couple of keys and some patterns off the stave. Make it fun. At th same time play along to ur fav tunes...start simple then pick somethig a bit more difficult and keep going. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cheeto726 Posted February 20 Author Share Posted February 20 18 hours ago, gjones said: I think you'd be better off gigging before you master your instrument. If I'd decided to master my instrument before I gigged, I'd still be waiting to play my first gig after 40 years I have a group of coworkers that I've been jamming with for about a year. I originally jammed with them when I played guitar but it didn't "feel right" so I switched to bass. We haven't jammed in about 2 months due to the cold lol but are going to get together in a couple weeks. I have also been very fortunate to be surrounded by musicians, both novice and professionals, and even some professional musicians that are in world famous bands and are still even touring. They told me to jam/gig with some of them too but I feel like I need to learn more before I do! 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan Dare Posted February 20 Share Posted February 20 10 hours ago, Baloney Balderdash said: I strongly disagree. In both these claims. But plenty of people, far too many, sadly the vast majority, will tell you just that, will tell themself just that. To the point where they don't even recognize themself anymore. Far too few are ready (daring/capable of) to truly embrace and realize their full potential. And far too underappreciated when someone does, for above exact reasons. I am not suggesting that I truly dare and have accomplished this, but I really do try my best. The world would be a so much better place to be if we just dared to realize our true self, only then will we be fully prepared to embrace other's as well. Everything else you said in that reply, you are making quite a few assumption about stuff I never actually said, and taken completely out of the context they were written in. But to play your game: Is practicing how to improvise and write original music really that horrible of a thing to do, as far as you are concerned? And if that is stupid and arrogant, then what are you? Difficult to know where to start, since you have missed the point so comprehensively. I appreciate that the fact that we are not conversing in your native language doesn't help. I did not state that "practicing how to improvise and write original music" is a "horrible of a thing to do". My point was that it is better to do so from a position of knowledge, rather than through trial and error. You do not either learn what others have played or learn to improvise and write original music. The smart option is to do both. Please do not put words in my mouth. It is stupid and/or arrogant to say "I am not going to learn from the great players. They have nothing to teach me. My unique and special voice gives me all I need to create the greatest music the world has ever known". Ever heard of the work of Dunning and Kruger? Remember the saying - "There is nothing new under the sun". If you are not aware of what has gone before, you are in no position to judge whether or not what you are doing is "original". Would you care to post examples of your original music so that we can all marvel at it? 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baloney Balderdash Posted February 20 Share Posted February 20 (edited) 1 hour ago, Dan Dare said: You do not either learn what others have played or learn to improvise and write original music. Ironically it seems like you were triggered by me suggesting to practice improvisation and writing skills. But I never claimed that it was an either or. In fact quite the opposite. However it seems to me that your point all along was that I did. Hard to argue made up points. And again you totally ignore context. And just what the... You are the one keeping to put words into my mouth, that is your game, and I give up playing it. Couse no matter what I say you are just going to make up stuff I never said to make it look like I am wrong and your are right. Which honestly seems to be your preconceived and only real point. Congratulations you won! As for my compositions, here are 3 examples (lo-fi alternative folk - dark drone/ambient - psychedelic electronic), though I fail to see what that has got to do with anything, or what it is suppose to prove or disprove : 11 hours ago, Baloney Balderdash said: I am not suggesting that I truly dare and have accomplished this, but I really do try my best. Edited February 20 by Baloney Balderdash 2 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dmccombe7 Posted February 20 Share Posted February 20 And back to the original question, what does the OP @Cheeto726 think so far. ? Have you been swayed either way. Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lozz196 Posted February 20 Share Posted February 20 5 hours ago, dmccombe7 said: I knew this would end up a debate between taking lessons and self taught. Always does. There's no right way to reach your destination. Simply enjoy the route you take to get there. Sometimes it takes a little longer to get where you want to be but that's ok. Sometimes the destination is different too but once again do we all want to be at the same place at the same time. Gonna get a wee tad busy. Music is fun, enjoy the journey. Be happy. Dave Good call Dave, it’s not a race but a journey of hopefully enjoyment. For the amount of time I’ve been playing (43 yrs) I’m sure I should be better than I am but I’ve never not been able to play something that I needed to which to me is what counts. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dmccombe7 Posted February 20 Share Posted February 20 14 minutes ago, Lozz196 said: Good call Dave, it’s not a race but a journey of hopefully enjoyment. For the amount of time I’ve been playing (43 yrs) I’m sure I should be better than I am but I’ve never not been able to play something that I needed to which to me is what counts. 100% agree. When my first proper rock covers band packed in i decided to listen to a lot of Jazz or Jazz-rock style music mainly because i enjoyed it but i found it was helping my technique and i was able to play a lot faster. This was all done by ear tho and just playing along to albums at home. The lessons allowed me to know and understand the basic scales etc and i was bale to follow the songs a bit easier. I did that for 3 yrs before mates asked me to join a rock covers band doing 50% originals and covers of AC/DC, ZZ Top and Free. I seemed to go from one end of the bass spectrum to the other Bass playing has definitely changed over the years tho and some of the new players i simply can't copy their technique. Its beyond me. I watch cclips on youtube and i'm in awe of what these guys can do now but most i look at have studied bass theory to the extreme. Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
msb Posted February 20 Share Posted February 20 Being self taught is the long hard way to do it. It’s amazing what a good teacher can do. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dmccombe7 Posted February 20 Share Posted February 20 2 hours ago, msb said: Being self taught is the long hard way to do it. It’s amazing what a good teacher can do. As i got older i wished i had found a better teacher to take me further into the theory. Not that i needed it for what i was doing but more from a learning point of view. Its been one of my life regrets that i didn't take lessons further but when a teacher says he can't teach me anymore after 18mths you tend to think that's it i know it all ............ and then yrs go by and you realise the guy was a numpty. I have considered going back even at 63 yrs old but youtube and social media can offer you so much these days. Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan Dare Posted February 20 Share Posted February 20 7 hours ago, Baloney Balderdash said: Ironically it seems like you were triggered by me suggesting to practice improvisation and writing skills. But I never claimed that it was an either or. In fact quite the opposite. However it seems to me that your point all along was that I did. Hard to argue made up points. And again you totally ignore context. And just what the... You are the one keeping to put words into my mouth, that is your game, and I give up playing it. Couse no matter what I say you are just going to make up stuff I never said to make it look like I am wrong and your are right. Which honestly seems to be your preconceived and only real point. Congratulations you won! As for my compositions, here are 3 examples (lo-fi alternative folk - dark drone/ambient - psychedelic electronic), though I fail to see what that has got to do with anything, or what it is suppose to prove or disprove : You have edited the attached post quite heavily since it originally appeared. Wonder why? We'll have to agree to disagree about the assertions you make. As I stated previously, we do not share a common language via which we can both express ourselves fully. I appreciate that you have made the effort, though. I speak no Danish, so cannot respond in kind. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
msb Posted February 20 Share Posted February 20 24 minutes ago, dmccombe7 said: As i got older i wished i had found a better teacher to take me further into the theory. Not that i needed it for what i was doing but more from a learning point of view. Its been one of my life regrets that i didn't take lessons further but when a teacher says he can't teach me anymore after 18mths you tend to think that's it i know it all ............ and then yrs go by and you realise the guy was a numpty. I have considered going back even at 63 yrs old but youtube and social media can offer you so much these days. Dave I too did it the hard way. And that’s why I recommend a good teacher. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baloney Balderdash Posted February 20 Share Posted February 20 (edited) 5 hours ago, Dan Dare said: You have edited the attached post quite heavily since it originally appeared. Wonder why? We'll have to agree to disagree about the assertions you make. As I stated previously, we do not share a common language via which we can both express ourselves fully. I appreciate that you have made the effort, though. I speak no Danish, so cannot respond in kind. You can speculate in all the conspiracy theories you want, but I got a bad habit with posting before i have made sure that I have actually said what I wanted to say and the way that I wanted to say it, I am aware that this can be annoying to others, and while I know it is not really any excuse me suffering from ADHD would at least explain it. And frankly I missed the part of your reply at first where you inquired examples of my own compositions. Also I fail to see what damage have been done, when you didn't reply to it in the meantime? And yes, English is not my native language, but I do wonder what is wrong with my English that you fail to understand me? Edited February 21 by Baloney Balderdash Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan Dare Posted February 20 Share Posted February 20 1 minute ago, Baloney Balderdash said: You can speculate in all the conspiracy theories you want, but I got a bad habit with posting before i made sure I have actually said what I did the way I wanted, I know it is not excuse, but me suffering from ADHD would at least explain it. And frankly I missed the part at first of you inquiring examples of my own compositions. Also I fail to see what damage have been done, when you didn't reply to it in the meantime? Time to draw this to a close. Have a nice life. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baloney Balderdash Posted February 20 Share Posted February 20 (edited) 5 minutes ago, Dan Dare said: Time to draw this to a close. Have a nice life. And yes, English is not my native language, but I do wonder what is wrong with my English that you fail to understand me? Also did you actually bother to listen the compositions you inquired through to the end? How about we hear your original compositions? Edited February 20 by Baloney Balderdash Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan Dare Posted February 20 Share Posted February 20 4 minutes ago, Baloney Balderdash said: And yes, English is not my native language, but I do wonder what is wrong with my English that you fail to understand me? Also did you actually bother to listen the compositions you inquired through to the end? How about we hear your original compositions? Tempting. But no. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.